Replace the Samurai Challenge, Hermit backs up his claims... Options

[Draco18s]

Mundanes on the other hand start the game pretty much at the zenith of their ability considering their main skill(s).
I think they should get more room for improvement.

See my suggestion about raising skill caps (with karma) to 12.

[suppenhuhn]

See my suggestion about raising skill caps (with karma) to 12.

Didn't see it, but i'd second it anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Cardul]

See, yes, Mages have no real cap because of Initiation, however....

I have always treated it that: one or two grades of initiation is fairly common in the higher end shadowrunners. When you start getting higher then that, you start getting a name...I mean, seriously..yes, you get the Rep for your Karma, but, when you have 3 Grades of initiation and are a spell-slinger, you honestly think people are not going to take notice of the rather NOTICABLE astral presence you leave in your wake after casting even a simple spell? At a certain point, people will know it was you that did the Runs...it is not a very shadowy thing to do to be a high end initiate....

And, of course, there are the favours people will be asking you for, the students coming to your door wishing to learn at the feet of a Master of the Arts. Simply put: is it REALLY worth the trouble you will be getting to become a high grade initiate?

[Wiggles Von Beer...]

As far as street sams go, it seems like the main attributes are Agility, Body, and Initiative.

I got bored today and decided to stat up a mage who was envious of phys ads, and just wanted to be like them. Magic 6, Spellcasting 6, Health Spec. +2, and Bear mentor for +2 to health spells and damage tests means that he rolls 16 dice for attribute boosting. I started his physical attributes at 3 or 4, because the Increase Attribute spells are F/2 - 2 for drain. The spells have to be cast at a force equal to or exceeding the attribute; 4 makes sense because he takes no drain from casting these spells at Force 4. The mage casts these and sustains them with foci, and then can cast increase reflexes on himself (or if he has a third foci, he can sustain that as well).

In practice rolls, I was averaging between +4 and +7 to each stat - capping them out at 9 and then adding in 6 dice for weapons skill, 2 more for smartlinks, ect. I think 17 dice with a gun for a spell slinger is acceptable. Slap an armored jacket on him, and he rolls 9+8+2 for 19 dice damage resistance. Throw in some other spells like Shattershield, Armor, Stench (area, F/2 and all net hits are negative modifiers for the target's actions - 3 net hits, and boom -3 for the enemy), and I think you've got a combat monster.

This was all rough math, so I might have messed something up somewhere. I was bored at work, and wanted to see what I could do.

[Draco18s]

Didn't see it, but i'd second it anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Another thread somewhere. Dealing with the new OR metric. I pieced together the idea of skills capping at 12 then a no-initiate mage with max magic and max spellcasting and roughly approximated what that mage should be capable of doing all the time (i.e. OR6), which was Wreck Helicopter. So I made choppers OR6, small rocks OR0, and extrapolated from there. Then used that OR table for the current skills (as OR6 isn't that hard to get with the current rules).

[The Mack]

As far as street sams go, it seems like the main attributes are Agility, Body, and Initiative.

I got bored today and decided to stat up a mage who was envious of phys ads, and just wanted to be like them. Magic 6, Spellcasting 6, Health Spec. +2, and Bear mentor for +2 to health spells and damage tests means that he rolls 16 dice for attribute boosting. I started his physical attributes at 3 or 4, because the Increase Attribute spells are F/2 - 2 for drain. The spells have to be cast at a force equal to or exceeding the attribute; 4 makes sense because he takes no drain from casting these spells at Force 4. The mage casts these and sustains them with foci, and then can cast increase reflexes on himself (or if he has a third foci, he can sustain that as well).

Well let's break that down.

Aside from needing the restricted gear quality for each focus (an additional 15~20 BP), they would cost a total of 40,000 nuyen each (Force 4), for a total of 160,000. Plus, 16 BP to bind them all at CharGen. That also means you've spent 20 of 35 allowed BPs for positive qualities, which means you can't buy anything else but the Magician quality.

So 4 of those, 1 for each attribute, would cost 68 BP, +3 per increase attribute spell, so another 12 BP for a total of 80 BP.

Plus you spent 111 for the MAG+SKILL+SPEC, etc. For a total of 191 points to get your character's attributes by 4 points each.

We haven't even paid for those attributes to be at 4 yet, and you still have to buy your mental attributes, skills, contacts, other spells (I assume) and other gear.

Now, all other things considered, I think that for the amount of BP invested, you should be allowed to develop a character concept like that.

Your concept includes Phys stats around 4 or so you're looking at phys stats of about 8 with all foci active. Is that really so dramatic of a character after spending all those points to get there? Keep in mind this includes risking focus addiction if you keep those running 24/7.

[ElFenrir]

Aside from needing the restricted gear quality for each focus (an additional 15~20 BP), they would cost a total of 40,000 nuyen each (Force 4), for a total of 160,000. Plus, 16 BP to bind them all at CharGen. That also means you've spent 20 of 35 allowed BPs for positive qualities, which means you can't buy anything else but the Magician quality.

For sustaining foci, you can bond any spell to any level of them. Even force 6 to rating 1...the catch is, Edge must be used in the roll when casting the spell into the focus.

And yes, you can start the game like this. The GM could overrule it, but it would be a houserule. I actually was taught this here on Dumpshock, actually, as I mentioned earlier.

So his build is just fine as long as he used Edge to bond them and took lower rating foci. It could cost him even less Karma to bond them as well.

EDIT: Also, we got rid of skill hardcaps, too. What I don't understand is that they seem to want to make skills more important, but they did nothing to lower the costs of them or increase the caps. So we took care of that latter part in our own games.

[The Mack]

For sustaining foci, you can bond any spell to any level of them. Even force 6 to rating 1...the catch is, Edge must be used in the roll when casting the spell into the focus.

And yes, you can start the game like this. The GM could overrule it, but it would be a houserule. I actually was taught this here on Dumpshock, actually, as I mentioned earlier.

So his build is just fine as long as he used Edge to bond them and took lower rating foci. It could cost him even less Karma to bond them as well.

I'm not really sure how that works, would you mind some more details if you have time?

Regardless, is he going to use all his edge to cast his spells into his foci, and then leave them permanently on? It depends on the GM, but that sounds like a prime candidate for focus addiction.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As far as street sams go, it seems like the main attributes are Agility, Body, and Initiative.

I got bored today and decided to stat up a mage who was envious of phys ads, and just wanted to be like them. Magic 6, Spellcasting 6, Health Spec. +2, and Bear mentor for +2 to health spells and damage tests means that he rolls 16 dice for attribute boosting. I started his physical attributes at 3 or 4, because the Increase Attribute spells are F/2 - 2 for drain. The spells have to be cast at a force equal to or exceeding the attribute; 4 makes sense because he takes no drain from casting these spells at Force 4. The mage casts these and sustains them with foci, and then can cast increase reflexes on himself (or if he has a third foci, he can sustain that as well).

In practice rolls, I was averaging between +4 and +7 to each stat - capping them out at 9 and then adding in 6 dice for weapons skill, 2 more for smartlinks, ect. I think 17 dice with a gun for a spell slinger is acceptable. Slap an armored jacket on him, and he rolls 9+8+2 for 19 dice damage resistance. Throw in some other spells like Shattershield, Armor, Stench (area, F/2 and all net hits are negative modifiers for the target's actions - 3 net hits, and boom -3 for the enemy), and I think you've got a combat monster.

Let us not forget the basic rule... Bonuses to your stats are capped at the Force of your spell... Force 4 means no more than +4 to the stat... You can have 15 hits on a spell, but if it was cast at force 5, you only get to apply 5 hits...

[Wiggles Von Beer...]

After some further math, it looks like the closest I can get that guy is 12 BP left over for contacts/spells, and 30k from In Debt at 30bp for gear. That's after dropping him from 4s to 3s in physical stats, and dropping the foci to force 3s.

I guess I could drop the magic to 5 and go from there, but he wouldn't really end up being a street sam replacement at that point. Just a human who could sling spells and throw all of his phyiscal stats up to his natural maximums at will.

Still worth playing, I think. But he won't be a combat monster.

[ElFenrir]

I'm not really sure how that works, would you mind some more details if you have time?

Regardless, is he going to use all his edge to cast his spells into his foci, and then leave them permanently on? It depends on the GM, but that sounds like a prime candidate for focus addiction.

Oh, certainly. It's one of the drawbacks. More Foci, more chance for addiction.

It's not a permanent Edge burn.

I'll come back with the info in a bit, Ill re-read all the details. Technically, it is not against the rules to use Edge to bond foci before the game starts; I'm sure most GMs would simply require a roll at the table to do it.

(I have my own little houserule how I handle foci. If someone wants to bond a foci at the force of the spell cast, IE, they buy a rating 4 focus, cast a force 4 spell into it, and bond it at chargen, I do not require a roll and let them have the max hits as the Force or Foci allows. However, if they wish to buy it lower and use Edge to be able to break the hits-which Edge lets you do-as there is some writing about Edge cast spells get past that Force caps hits rule-but I require the roll. The reason why you can cast an Edge-boosted spell into any level focus, is because the Force of the spell is technically at it's base. So a mage could cast a Force 1 Manabolt at someone, BUT boost it with Edge and just use net hits to stage it up. Of course, with the new rules that's borked, but in our games, you still can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

et us not forget the basic rule... Bonuses to your stats are capped at the Force of your spell... Force 4 means no more than +4 to the stat... You can have 15 hits on a spell, but if it was cast at force 5, you only get to apply 5 hits...

See above. Edge used to cast spells circumvents the hit cap. It does it for about any skill in the game, if I recall. Gah, I need to pull out the SR4 book for page citations.

[Dakka Dakka]

You are not quite right about Edge and hits on spells. Only the hits on the edge dice may generate hits above the force of the spell. So a pretty slim chance to get 6 hits on a force 1 spell, even if the character has Edge 8.

Another problem with this tactic are barriers. Go through one and the spell is gone. You'll have to use another 3/4 points of Edge to get the spells back up.

So still no Über-Teamreplacing-Mage.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh, certainly. It's one of the drawbacks. More Foci, more chance for addiction.

It's not a permanent Edge burn.

I'll come back with the info in a bit, Ill re-read all the details. Technically, it is not against the rules to use Edge to bond foci before the game starts; I'm sure most GMs would simply require a roll at the table to do it.

(I have my own little houserule how I handle foci. If someone wants to bond a foci at the force of the spell cast, IE, they buy a rating 4 focus, cast a force 4 spell into it, and bond it at chargen, I do not require a roll and let them have the max hits as the Force or Foci allows. However, if they wish to buy it lower and use Edge to be able to break the hits-which Edge lets you do-as there is some writing about Edge cast spells get past that Force caps hits rule-but I require the roll. The reason why you can cast an Edge-boosted spell into any level focus, is because the Force of the spell is technically at it's base. So a mage could cast a Force 1 Manabolt at someone, BUT boost it with Edge and just use net hits to stage it up. Of course, with the new rules that's borked, but in our games, you still can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )



See above. Edge used to cast spells circumvents the hit cap. It does it for about any skill in the game, if I recall. Gah, I need to pull out the SR4 book for page citations.

Source Please... The only rules that Iknow of for Edge are as Such...

Page 67 BBB

1: Spend Edge before rolling to add youre Edge in Dice to the Pool; Reroll all 6's
2: Spend Edge after the Roll, to roll additional dice equal to Edge, Reroll 6's for edge dice only
3: Spend Edge to Reroll all failures from a Dice Pool
4: Spend Edge to make a Long Shot Roll, Roll Edge Only, No Reroll of 6's
5: Spend Edge to Go First in Initiative Pass
6: Spend Edge to gain another Initiative Pass in the Combat Turn
7: Spend Edge to negate Glitch or Critical Glitch
8: Spend Edge to Invoke Dead Mans Trigger

Permanently Burn Edge for :
1: Automatic Critical Success (4 Successes on a SIngle Roll)
2: Escape Certain Death

Now to the Magic Section... (See Magic Section 163-204of the BBB)

Casting and Hits:
Hits for the Casting of Spells is Capped by the Force of the Spell (Page 171, Force, 3rd Paragraph)
Nowhere in the explanation does it say that Edge allows the bypassing of this limit...

I have looked in the BBB, Street Magic and the Digital Grimoire and I can not find any mention of what you are describing... Please elucidate and educate me as to where this information resides

Foci: (Pages 191-192 BBB)

Bonding Foci takes No Roll of any Kind... So Edge is of no value
Activating Foci takes no Roll of any Kind... So Edge is of no Value
Locking a spell into A Spell Sustaining Foci... Sustains a spell cast through it, Add no Dice to a test, Therefore Edge is of no value...

Bonding Foci does not require Edge... It requires Karma, and at character creation it costs 1 BP per Focus Rating...
Note that you can also only have a number of active foci (not force rating, but active individual foci... combo foci are invaluable)equal to your Logic (page 191 under Activation)... so this is a natural limit that is placed on any magically active character as to the limits of the Number of Foci...


All in all, I am rather comfused as to the provenance of the data/source that you are using...

My Two Cents..

[Dakka Dakka]

A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test.
[...]
This limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell.

[ElFenrir]

In the book, it says that Edge can be added to a die pool before the roll(it doesn't say the pool and Edge dice have to be rolled separately unless the edge is added AFTER the roll), and that any successes there can then be subject to the rule of 6. It doesn't say that only the Edge dice explode, but ALL of them, as long as it's added BEFORE the first roll is made. It's on page 67:

You may declare the use of Edge before rolling any one test(or one interval roll on an Extended Test.) You may add a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice(not just Edge dice) rolled on this test are subject to the Rule of Six, meaning that if you roll a 6, you count it as a hit and roll it again.

Oh, and Barriers are indeed another drawback to the load on Edge and lock spell tactic. I mean, it's not a foolproof tactic, but from what I learned here and in the book, it's viable to do this(add Edge to the die roll.)

I had always played by the rule of Edge being used for a test always gets by any hit caps. (Using an Adept Power that's activated, like Attribute Boost, for example, I understood as adding Edge to the roll allowed more hits than your Magic attribute.)

EDIT: Yes, above, that was the other quote I was looking for.

[Dakka Dakka]

I don't remember that there are any hit caps besides on spells in the books. Care to enlighten me which rolls are capped as well?

Even if you declare Edge Use before rolling, the other dice in the pool still don't become Edge Dice even though the rules for Edge dice apply to them as well. So a maximum of 8 dice can generate hits above the Force of a spell.

[ElFenrir]

I think the adept powers are capped as well, which technically are not spells, but more like abilities. (Powers=Attribute Boost in other words, which I don't think can be boosted past your Magic rating without the use of Edge.)

Aren't programs or some Matrix thing capped as well due to program rating? I could be wrong there, but my Matrix knowledge is less than perfect. I want to say I recall SOME think in the AR world being capped due to a rating.

Can I get a citation where only Edge dice count? I have always read it(and will continue to use it, for that matter), that when Edge is added to a roll, it's one pool, and you don't separate out the Edge dice from the regular dice unless it specifies(which it does when it describes Edge dice added to the pool afterward.) I understand it says ''Edge dice used to boost a spell'', but I always read this as above that I said.

[Dakka Dakka]

The hits on Attribute Boost are not capped per se, the attribute to be boosted (Augmented Maximum) and the Rating of the boost (Magic), which is part of the dicepool, however are. Investing more than Rating on boost is usually a poor choice compared to raising your magic.

SR4A may have changed how things work in the matrix, but i don't think this rule is in SR4.

[Draco18s]

Programs limiting hits is an alternate rule so you don't end up with script kiddie hackers with a logic of 1.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In the book, it says that Edge can be added to a die pool before the roll(it doesn't say the pool and Edge dice have to be rolled separately unless the edge is added AFTER the roll), and that any successes there can then be subject to the rule of 6. It doesn't say that only the Edge dice explode, but ALL of them, as long as it's added BEFORE the first roll is made. It's on page 67:



Oh, and Barriers are indeed another drawback to the load on Edge and lock spell tactic. I mean, it's not a foolproof tactic, but from what I learned here and in the book, it's viable to do this(add Edge to the die roll.)

I had always played by the rule of Edge being used for a test always gets by any hit caps. (Using an Adept Power that's activated, like Attribute Boost, for example, I understood as adding Edge to the roll allowed more hits than your Magic attribute.)

EDIT: Yes, above, that was the other quote I was looking for.

OK... Here we go...

Dice added to the roll for SPELLCASTING from spent EDGE are still part of the dice pool, regardless of whether you can add extra dice because of the RUle of 6... This IN NO WAY affects the rule that the force of the Spell CAPS the number fo Hits that you can apply...it just allows a greater number of possible hits...

Now, Adepts have a limit on the Number of Levels of an Adept Ability that they may purchase that is capped by their magic attribute... Very Different. Assuming that the Adept has a Magic rating of 5, they can purchase only 5 levels of the various leveld powers... For example... No moer than 5 levels of: Attribute Boos (Specific Attribute), Combat Sense, Critical Strike, Enhanced Perception, Great Leap, Improved Ability, Improved Physical Attribute, Kinesics, Missile Parry, Mystic Armor, NAtural Immunity, Pain Resistance, Rapid Healing, and Spell Resistance (All from the BBB)... However, they are not capped by teh number of hits on their activation of their abilities... For example, an Adept with 5 levels of Attribute Boost (which requires an activation roll) can activate it, rolling Magic (5) + Atrribute Boost (5) for a dice pool of 10 dice... (Edge could also be added for additional dice if desired, assume an edge of 4)... Thsi results in a dice poiol of 14 dice, where the Rule of 6 applies - Assume the following roll of the 14 dice... 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,6,6... 6 rerolled result in a 4,5 - Total successes = 6... teh Adept adds +6 to the attribute for a duration of 6 Combat Turns... once it expires, he rolls Drain against a DV 5 (the rating of the ability)...

This is all very well spelled out in the BBB...

Magical SPELLS are capped out on the number of hits that they can receive by the Force rating of the Spell (regardless of then number of dice in the casting pool, or whther you spent Edge or not)... anything else is a houserule and not RAW.

I am still not understanding the Use of Edge for Locking a Spell in into a Sustaining Focus... YOU CANNOT DO THAT BY RAW... Please explain how I can use a Rating 1 Sustaining Foci to Lock a Rating 6 Spell... You Cannot do so by the RAW in any book that I have...

Now... For the Quickening Metamagic Feat... which does not use a sustaining Focus... you Must quicken thte spell with Karma equal to the Force of the Spell, and you can add additional Karma to add additional Dice to resist dispelling or disruption. In this case, you might be able to add Edge (GM Discretion, but could be within the scope of the RAW) to add dice to the resistance roll of the Quickened spell to determine if it is disrupted or dispelled...

Other than that... I got nothing... Please explain if you have any references...

Thanks

[knasser]

Just a note on the Edge use for Sustaining Foci. Although ElFenrir is right by RAW that you can get more hits (from the additonal Edge dice only however, as I understand it), The Mack is correct in this particular instance. Although Edge use would allow a character to start the game with a sustained Increase Reflexes spell for 4IP for example, it was originally suggested that the magician use Increase Attribute to boost scores that were already at 4. The spell description for Increase Attribute specifies that the spell must be cast at equal or greater Force than the score of the attribute meaning that regardless of hits, a rating 4 sustaining focus would still be needed.

So either Attributes need to be dropped to 3 or, as The Mack says, you need to pay up for the Restricted Gear quality. Even at 30,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for the rating 3 focus, it seems a pricey way to get the attribute boost when Muscle Replacement 2 boosts both Agility and Strength for a third of the cost. If you were going for Restricted Gear anyway, then you could get Muscle Replacement 4 for 20,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to the rating 4 focus' 40,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . And it isn't going to clash with any wards or light you up like a beacon on the Astral or get stolen (usually). Of course it costs Essence, but that's what we're discussing - whether magicians (who care about Essence) can do with magic, what Samurai (who don't) can do without it.

[Muspellsheimr]

A spell's Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So, if you cast a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits, only 3 of those hits count. In other words, Force serves as a limiter effect on spells - the more oomph you put into the spell, the better you can succeed with it. This limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell.

Edge dice are not subject to the Force limit. Only Edge dice, however, have this. Your Spellcasting dice, or Magic dice, Focus dice, etc. are not Edge dice, regardless of if you apply Edge before or after the roll.

[Draco18s]

Edge dice are not subject to the Force limit. Only Edge dice, however, have this. Your Spellcasting dice, or Magic dice, Focus dice, etc. are not Edge dice, regardless of if you apply Edge before or after the roll.

Either way the Increase Attributes spell has a minimum force needed.

[ElFenrir]

Okay, I think I have that down. I guess when casting spells, if Edge dice are ever added, they should always be kept separate, even though in other tests you ''toss them in the pool'' so to speak. I would do this, simply because it seems better to keep track about which are Edge dice and which aren't. (For example, if you end up with a few 6's and reroll, you don't know if your Edge dice rolled the 6's or your normal spellcasting pool dice.)

I mean, in my game I might just leave it as ''toss em in, if you roll Edge AFTER, then it's separate''. Just to keep it less confusing, since you can roll Pistols+Agility+Edge in one big pool and count them all together, but in a magic test, your magic dice + Foci dice + spellcasting dice + whatever must be kept separate from your Edge dice by the look. In theory, someone could, on a lucky roll, throw 4 6's with their Edge dice alone(hey, Ive seen it done and done it), and then reroll 3 of them into other successes, getting a full 7 hits on the Edge dice alone and thus allowing them to break the cap.

Knasser: I had a feeling there was a catch somewhere to that. Honestly, I think the only times I've seen the Edge used in a lower-Force foci was to start a game with higher level Reflexes, or Armor, Combat Sense, or something along those lines, where there isn't that Force-Stat limit.

[knasser]

Knasser: I had a feeling there was a catch somewhere to that. Honestly, I think the only times I've seen the Edge used in a lower-Force foci was to start a game with higher level Reflexes, or Armor, Combat Sense, or something along those lines, where there isn't that Force-Stat limit.

This is one of the few house rules I've applied - you can't apply excess Edge hits to sustaining foci. If anyone is interested, the latest version of my house rules collection is here.

Sustained Armour is a pretty horrible one. By horrible, I don't mean that it's unbalanced itself, I mean that it produces the sort of fluff v. mechanical advantage situation that annoys me so much. Armour makes you glow. Glow! Some players have no problem stating that their characters walk around their whole life flowing green in case someone leaps out at them and shoots them. It's a relative of "I have 200,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) of cyberware installed in my body and I can earn 4,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in a night as a hitman, but I live in a squat with no electricity, no water, no entertainment and just count my grenades each night" syndrome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I frown upon players cheerfully ignoring any aspects of their character's comfort or social lives that would interfere with the collection of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

K.