Replace the Samurai Challenge, Hermit backs up his claims... Options

[knasser]

Good grief, people! Please read any of the explanations I have put in this thread so far.

so I asked Hermit if he was willing to pit a standard 400BP straight out of chargen magician against an identically costed samurai build and see if he could produce something that would match its capabilities, thus fulfilling the same role in a team. Hermit said sure, so here's the thread and here's my build.

I do not expect this challenge to prove that samurai can beat up magicians or vice versa. Shadowrun is a game of eggshells armed with hammers - typically he who betrays the other first gets the loot. What I expect it to prove is that magicians and samurai are neither better nor worse than the other, but different. That they each have their own, and complimentary roles. Hermit expects to prove that magicians are greatly superior to samurai, able to beat the samurai at its own game.

So here is my build. Hermit can post his next and then we'll start comparing their capabilities.

A Mage vs. Samurai fight is meaningless.

The challenge is because Hermit has been saying that magicians are overpowered, that they can replace the rest of the team, that they can fill the role of others and make them redundant. Basically that magicians are the be all and end all. Therefore I asked him if I posted a basic samurai build could he produce a similarly legal 400BP magician that could do the same, handle the same circumstances as the samurai, etc.? It's not about whether the magician or the samurai can beat the other (they both can). It's about whether the magician makes the samurai obsolete through its superiority as Hermit thinks and I do not.

It's not about who can win a fight. That comes down to who betrays the other first - this is Shadowrun, after all. wink.gif

It's about whether magicians are so overpowered as has been claimed that they are a team unto themself and make non-magician characters redundant.

Does that make the nature of the challenge clear now? It's to ask Hermit to follow up on his claims and Hermit has accepted. We're just waiting for his build. It has nothing, absolutely nothing, at all, to do with the two builds "fighting each other" which would be nonsensical outside of a game because circumstances determine the outcome, not the builds.

K.

[Octopiii]

So here's my shot at a Swiss Army Mage:

[ Spoiler ]

One Man Army
Male Ork (20bp)
B: 5
A: 2
R: 4(6)
S: 3
C: 2
I: 5
L: 2
W: 5
(150bp)
E: 1
M: 6 (3)
(65bp)
Initiative: 11
Initiative Passes: 3
Astral Initiative: 10
Astral IP: 3
Matrix Initative: 10
Matrix IP: 3 (AR) 2 (Cold Sim) 3 (Hot Sim)

Skills:
Spellcasting(manipulation): 6(8
Counterspelling: 4
Perception: 4
Dodge: 4(6)
Summoning: 4
(90bp)

Cyber:
Move-By-Wire 2
(85k, -3 essence)

Qualities:
Magician: -15
Restricted Gear: -5
Mentor Spirit: -5
Bad Luck: +20
Allergy com/med: +15
(Total: +10bp)

Spells:
Heal
Levitate
Stunball
Stunbolt
Mindprobe
Physical Mask
Influence
Shapechange
Mana Bind
Control Thoughts
Mob Mind
Mana Net
(36bp)

Equipment:
Urban Explorer Jumpsuit: 6/6 500
Helmet: +2 50
FFBA: Half Body: +4/+1 900
Commlink: Metal Link 100
Signal Upgrade: 5 4k
Response upgrade: 5 4k
OS: Vector Xim 200
Firewall Upgrade: 5 2500
System Upgrade: 5 2500
AR Gloves: 250
Hot Sim Mod: 250
Trodes: 50
Subvocal Mic: 50
Satellite Link: 500
Tag Eraser: 150
Analyze, Browse, Edit, Encrypt, Reality Filter, Scan x5: 3k
Armor, Attack, Biofeedback, Command, Decrypt, Defuse, ECCM, Exploit, Medic, Sniffer, Spoof, Stealth, Track x5: 65k
Fake SIN 4: 4k
Autopicker 6: 1200
Keycard Copier 6: 1800
Cellular Glove Molder 3: 600
Maglock Passkey 4: 8k
Sequencer 4: 800
Medkit 6: 600
Activesofts (rating 4 each): Computer, Hacking, First Aid, Cybercombat, Data Search: 72k
Low Lifestyle: 2k
Manipulation Fetishes: Control Thoughts, Mob Mind, Mana Net (900)
Total (+cyber): 240500, 50bp (3600 left over)

Total: 397bp. He has 2 left over for a crappy contact.

OMA can drop spells (9 dice pool, 13 for manipulation spells; 10dp for drain generally; 12 for drain with his fetishes), Fight (15 dp for ballistic resistance, 14 for impact; dodges with 6 dice at ranged, 12 if full dodge; 11 initiative and 3 IP's), and Hack (9 dice for hacking, 11 if in hotsim; 3 IP's in AR or Hotsim), and be a pinch Face (Influence, Mind Probe, Physical Mask, Control Thoughts), and do B+E work: (Physical Mask, Levitate, Shapechange, various burglar tools), and finally, act as a Medic (Heal spell; 6 dp; 12 with Medkit for First Aid tests) In exchange, he has to overcast most of his spells to be certain to succeed, which isn't a problem in combat (Force 6 Stunbolt: 2 physical drain).

Can he take other team member's roles? Yes. Is this because he is a mage? Generally, No. The MBW system and the cheapness of Activesofts in SR4 are the contributors to the cheese. I could make a Samurai Hacker/B+E/Rigger just as easily with a MBW system, and he'd have better dice pools.

EDIT: Added drain dp for his three fetish limited spells, fixed damage resistance pools to reflect that I gave him 5 body halfway through the build, and added his ability as a combat Medic. I didn't use Unwired, otherwise he'd be a bit more tricked out for matrix combat.

[Mikado]

So here's my shot at a Swiss Army Mage:
OMA can drop spells (9 dice pool, 13 for manipulation spells; 10dp for drain generally), Fight (14 dp for ballistic resistance, 13 for impact; dodges with 6 dice at ranged, 12 if full dodge), and Hack (9 dice for hacking, 11 if in hotsim), and be a pinch Face (Influence, Mind Probe, Physical Mask, Control Thoughts), and do B+E work: (Physical Mask, Levitate, Shapechange, various burglar tools). In exchange, he has to overcast most of his spells to be certain to succeed, which isn't a problem in combat (Force 6 Stunbolt: 2 physical drain).

Can he take other team member's roles? Yes. Is this because he is a mage? Generally, No. The MBW system and the cheapness of Activesofts in SR4 are the contributors to the cheese. I could make a Samurai Hacker/B+E/Rigger just as easily with a MBW system, and he'd have better dice pools.

Your prices on Activesofts are wrong for SR4A. 10,000 per rating is the new cost.

[Sir_Psycho]

Aren't we proving that pre SR4A magicians were broken, though? So shouldn't everything pre-anniversary be acceptable?

[Mikado]

Aren't we proving that pre SR4A magicians were broken, though? So shouldn't everything pre-anniversary be acceptable?

Ah, never mind then.

[Malicant]

So here's my shot at a Swiss Army Mage:

The point was the mage uses magic to make everyone else redundant. Skills are obviously ok, but 'ware makes the point moot.

[suppenhuhn]

The point was the mage uses magic to make everyone else redundant. Skills are obviously ok, but 'ware makes the point moot.

Mages can't use cyber? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)
This is getting silly.

[Malicant]

Dude, what?
If a guy claims a mage can do everything a regular team can, on his own, because of magic, he cannot use (excessive) implants to do stuff he cannot do with magic. Seriously, go play somewhere else and let the grown ups do the talking, will you?

[suppenhuhn]

There's nothing written in any book that states mages can't use cyberware.
In fact every argument about how balanced everything is always points out how mundanes can get some deltaware this and betaware that.
Mages can do so as well, it's a valid built no point for you to behave like in your kindergarten.

[Dunsany]

It's true that cyberware and bioware are available to all characters. I also don't think that using cyberware with a magically active character to show that magically active characters can be overpowered is out of line. I'm of the opinion that bioware, in particular, isn't perfectly balanced in this edition with the cost to magically active characters, but that's not really the issue here and is properly argued elsewhere.

The argument is that a mage can/cannot replace an entire team of shadowrunners by themselves. I think it's fair to allow people to use any magically active character with any normal options open to them to prove that mages can replace the team. Given our contention is that it is impossible, I feel relatively safe in letting people use whatever character options they like.

[Malicant]

There's nothing written in any book that states mages can't use cyberware.
In fact every argument about how balanced everything is always points out how mundanes can get some deltaware this and betaware that.
Mages can do so as well, it's a valid built no point for you to behave like in your kindergarten.

Ok, now you're getting just cute. Dear, your missing the point, but that's ok, we love you anyway, our little special darling angel.

[eidolon]

This is getting silly.

Getting?

Sir, I respectfully submit that the wankery on the forums surpassed "silly" about five minutes after SR4A dropped, and has firmly moved into realms approaching inanity.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Draco18s]

The argument is that a mage can/cannot replace an entire team of shadowrunners by themselves. I think it's fair to allow people to use any magically active character with any normal options open to them to prove that mages can replace the team. Given our contention is that it is impossible, I feel relatively safe in letting people use whatever character options they like.

Given this and given that the Swiss Army Mage uses cyber to accomplish some of the "I replace you" means that it isn't because he's a mage that he can replace the entire team. Having some access to magic just helps him replace more (i.e. a mage with MBW replaces the whole team, a non-mage with MBW replaces everyone but the mage).

So while a valid entry, it doesn't prove the point that "magic replaces everyone." It only shows that MBW replaces everyone (isn't that why corps implant all their wage slaves with MBW?).

[Malicant]

Indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[eidolon]

Malicant, knock off the baiting and provocation. Asking a valid question doesn't make someone illiterate, stupid, or a child.

[Malicant]

It does not. But not understanding it after it has been explaind does.

[Draco18s]

It does not. But not understanding it after it has been explaind does.

Oh, so that's why I've had to explain the SR4A drain mechanic to people 14 times...
</bait>
<switch>

[eidolon]

I'm sure we'll all keep that in mind the next time you misunderstand something the first time.

You can argue with me but it won't change the point: stop treading, however lightly, on the TOS or it'll start earning you administrative warnings and time outs. Thanks.

[Malicant]

Drains... drains! Giev.... drains! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I'm sure we'll all keep that in mind the next time you misunderstand something the first time.

I never misunderstand stuff, it's everyone else who is wrong.

What?

Oh, right. Sorry.

[Draco18s]

You can argue with me but it won't change the point: stop treading, however lightly, on the TOS or it'll start earning you administrative warnings and time outs. Thanks.

I think my most recent corrections have been to repeat offenders, actually. All 14 of those posts would be in the same 3 threads too (so even if it is a new person the answer has already been supplied 4 times). Most of whom reply back with a variant of "that's what I said" and when attempting to explain the difference between what they said and what I said I get a remark about "that's not how it's done, it's done [correct method]."

Anyway, I hope the SR devs take all of the discussion to heart and reword / exemplify the rules in the published book or the problem will only exacerbate itself. Assuming they decide that their "fix" for whatever "the problem" is is in fact the correct one, and not one of the other suggested methods (my other hope is that when the players find the rules odd and come up with a "better" solution that the devs take note and adopt that instead).

I'm sure we'll all keep that in mind the next time you misunderstand something the first time.

Go for it. I'm open to taking the same criticism that I give, I know that when it comes spelling and grammar I'm quite a nazi, yet have terrible spelling and grammar of my own (you would never want to read what I type if I was unable to make corrections). I'm certainly willing to extend that towards rules as well.

[Octopiii]

Given this and given that the Swiss Army Mage uses cyber to accomplish some of the "I replace you" means that it isn't because he's a mage that he can replace the entire team. Having some access to magic just helps him replace more (i.e. a mage with MBW replaces the whole team, a non-mage with MBW replaces everyone but the mage).

So while a valid entry, it doesn't prove the point that "magic replaces everyone." It only shows that MBW replaces everyone (isn't that why corps implant all their wage slaves with MBW?).

I agree that this entry proves nothing more than the errata for activesofts and software mods were much needed. Still, even with the discounted costs, I was unable to get him any useful foci; a rating 2 power focus would be extremely helpful, as would some sustaining foci. OMA was an attempt to use rules that were nerfed in SR4A to prove Hermit's point (which I don't, for the record, agree with) that a Mage could replace an entire team pre-SR4. His dicepool for spells is a bit on the low side, owing to his large essence loss; and his drain dicepool is merely ok. I can anticipate the argument that a Skillwires + Synaptic Booster combo would be better; but a rating 2 Booster would not allow him to take on a hacking role due to money constraints; a rating 1 Booster would be serviceable but leave him weak in the Samurai Replacement department.

I could make a much more powerful character who utilized a possession based tradition to be the Swiss Army Mage; but as the possession rules were not nerfed, I didn't see how that proved Hermit's point that the SR4A changes were necessary to keep Mages from obsoleting an entire team. Skillwires do that, and for far cheaper (with bp) than magic. One thing to note is that OMA still doesn't have very many spells that effect items with OR, as I decided his hacking ability was more efficient at taking out technological foes than magic would be. For the record, I think an OR of 6 is frankly punishing; 4 is usually enough of a hurdle for a Mage to meet.

EDIT: Removed quasi-incendiary term "SR4.5" for "SR4A". I don't want (more) of a flame war here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[Draco18s]

I agree that this entry proves nothing more than the errata for activesofts and software mods were much needed.

I could make a much more powerful character who utilized a possession based tradition to be the Swiss Army Mage; but as the possession rules were not nerfed

Points I both agree with. I never used Skillwires myself, though one character in our group does (the cybersam, go figure), and I think they've only ever been used in our group for those characters who want to be able to go, "Oh, we need XYZ and no one has it. I have skillwires, let me get the Activesoft" rather than trying to be a Swiss Army Knife.

[Octopiii]

The point was the mage uses magic to make everyone else redundant. Skills are obviously ok, but 'ware makes the point moot.

Just thought I'd tackle this point directly. Yes, the Swiss Army Mage makes rather heavy use of Cyber; but it's still his magic that fulfills the essential part of all his roles. Combat? He uses spells (Stunbolt, Stunball, Control Thoughts, Mob Mind, Mana Bind, Mana Net) and spirits. B+E? Spells (Physical Mask, Levitate, Influence, Control Thoughts, Mob Mind) and spirits. About the only role he fulfills that doesn't use magic is Hacking (and he would be a much better character if I didn't try to squeeze in hacking ability as well).

Part of what makes this versatility possible is that several of his spells have overlap in the various roles he plays, maximizing his bp's spent on skills (you notice I only spent 90 total bp on skills? Relying on spells means that he only needed to spend 26 bp on Spellcasting and let the rest lie.) and magic.

[Angier]

Part of the Challenge actually is the predication that awakened can do all a mundane can do and more. Using cyberware is fine I think as long as the actual build itself doesn't use more ressources than the 400BP allow.

[Malicant]

If you want to prove Magic to be uberpowerful, and you use Cyberware in your build, you only prove that magic paired with 'ware is uberpowerful. Although there is a lot of cheese going on in the Augmented Awakened department, this is not the purpose of this challange.

Really, how do you prove magic can do everything (and better), if you use tech to cover things magic cannot do?