Replace the Samurai Challenge, Hermit backs up his claims... Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

If you want to prove Magic to be uberpowerful, and you use Cyberware in your build, you only prove that magic paired with 'ware is uberpowerful. Although there is a lot of cheese going on in the Augmented Awakened department, this is not the purpose of this challange.

Really, how do you prove magic can do everything (and better), if you use tech to cover things magic cannot do?

This is something that has bothered me about the recent editions. Mages seem more able to deal with cyber than before. I'd like it so magically active characters picked up that flaw that doubled essence loss but apply it to bioware as well as a side effect of picking up a magic talent.(getting no BP for it) Also back in the day mages made poor hackers, bring back the penalty to interacting with the matrix. Make it -2 dice with AR and -4 dice in VR.

Also I'd like to bring back a limited version of grounding. You can channel spells through the link to the target or whaever the target is karma bound to. No exploding fireballs of doom, but manabolts hit the focus and the focus user. Sorry for going totally OT.

[suppenhuhn]

Fuchs. That's 20BP over the Attribute limit including buying back your lost Magic point due to Essence loss. I assume that the Sustaining Focus is going toward Increased Reflexes. Is this the non-Combat spell using build you talked about? I'm afraid it seems rather vulnerable and underpowered if it's going to be using mundane armaments.

Special attributes aren't limited by those 200 BP

/oops that's what you get for clicking submit after eating.

[Malicant]

@Malicant: I'm fine with Octopiii's entry. I believe that it does, as you all have agreed, actually help contradict Hermit's argument given that its success relies on extensive cyberware.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I forgot to mention that I don't mind him used against the Ubermage theory. I simply cannot accept him in favor of this, is all.

Nothing to see here, move along!

[Mäx]

8 Drain dice isn't optimal, but it's not terrible.

It might be good idea to limit those spells with fetishes, for cheap +2 drain dice.

[ornot]

It might be good idea to limit those spells with fetishes, for cheap +2 drain dice.

That is one thing I hate. Fetishes. Where exactly is the downside? They are exactly a cheap +2 drain dice.

Anywhere the mage is going to be without them, everyone else will be without their gear too.

[Zurai]

That is one thing I hate. Fetishes. Where exactly is the downside? They are exactly a cheap +2 drain dice.

Anywhere the mage is going to be without them, everyone else will be without their gear too.

The downside is they're destroyable, and the spell cannot be cast without them.

[ornot]

But if they're in a position to have their fetishes destroyed, they're already pretty well fragged.

Hell, a Sammies guns are destroyable, but that's not considered a downside.

[knasser]

But if they're in a position to have their fetishes destroyed, they're already pretty well fragged.

Hell, a Sammies guns are destroyable, but that's not considered a downside.

It depends just how in-depth your game gets. A magician with fetishes is a magician that can be disarmed. I play a superstitious world and when characters are searched going into restaurant for a meet, ritual knives, feathers,amulets and anything that looks suspiciously like a charm, fetish or gew-gaw is likely to get put in the box with any other dangerous looking things. I don't think that's being particularly vindictive. The first thing Lone Star or anyone else are going to do when they lock someone up is take away any obvious magical implements. They're also a dead give away that a character is a magician and that can be important when the opposition doesn't know your capabilities.

I'm just saying that it can come up and be relevant.

[Mäx]

They're also a dead give away that a character is a magician and that can be important when the opposition doesn't know your capabilities.

Not really, as many wannabes also carry those same items.

[ElFenrir]

It's why I chose to do the non-fetish way. He already has two foci, which isn't super-optimal, but Foci DO have their advantages as well. As do fetishes, but I didn't want to overload him down. 8 drain dice means he won't want to overcast all willy-nilly, but at least later on a power focus could come into play to help with that(yet another foci). Foci, like ware, have their good-and their bad-points.

However, a disadvantage a cyber-mage AND a sam both have is their ware. Being able to get in somewhere, the pure mage does have a little bit of a boost there over the sams/cybermages in this thread in the case of a MAD. While Big Jack only has a set of bone lacing, it IS metal and makes him a bit vulnerable there(at least bioware is very hard to detect without a proper checkup.)

Now, if I wanted to juggle some resources and points around, I could have pulled off some bone density or ceramic lacing instead, but I'd have to push around other Essence points as well(since Aluminum BL puts him at the exact limit. Alpha Ceramic would have dropped his magic too far than i would have liked, and density 1 wasn't as much as a boost, although if I wanted to ditch the metal it could have been an option.)

[Fuchs]

Another test could be: Can you build a mage that equals the samurai character from the BBB in combat?

[ElFenrir]

I could get it pretty damn close. With my build, things I'd do:

I'd knock out his summoning skills, further cementing him into combat caster-land. That would free up 16 BP to increase other skills, which would go to Automatics(8 BP, for 4+2), Unarmed(for 5+2), and start a Pistols skill at 1. I would then just ditch out Infiltration and either get a spell later or buy the skill later, popping another into Pistols, for 2.

I'd take out Lightning Bolt, freeing up 3 more BP, since he'd just use guns to take care of drones at that point, and even snatch a point from a contact, bringing Pistols to 3.

So my mage would then have:
-Lightning Bolt
-Infiltration
-Summoning
-Binding
-1 point from a Contact

+Unarmed Combat(Boxing): 5(+2)
+Automatics(SMGs): 4(+2)
+ Pistols 3

Die Pools for Melee: 12/14
Automatics: 11/13(15 with Smartlinked SMG)
Pistols: 10(12 smartlinked)

He'd still throw 6 dice for Infiltration. I'd get him a nice pistol with a silencer and some Ex-Ex. Alternately, I'd switch his Unarmed Combat skill around to Blades(Swords), eventually getting him a Weapon Focus. With Blades(Swords) 5(+2) and a No-Dachi, he'd be smacking for 8P, +2 Reach, and -2 AP, and roll 14 dice(16 if he uses reach) to do so. Once he got a Force 6 weapon focus he'd school about anyone in melee.

Hmm, actually, I think I might take out his Unarmed skill even in the original build and switch it to Blades/Swords anyway, getting him the No-Dachi. I like the +2 reach dice and the damage on that thing.

I even edited the old version to have the Blades now and picked up a No-Dachi. Doesn't have much nuyen left, but ahh well. (I forget the availability, but i can always get a combat axe instead.)

Honestly, even Heirophant-my current elven sam, who was built with 750 Karma, no Availability limit, and has a 9 Strength, 9 Agility, and a lot of martial arts, hits harder than a panther cannon and has maneuvers with titanium bone lacing, would think about tangling with Big Jack head to head. He would beat him in the end toe to toe, I think if only melee was used, but if Big Jack used his spells, he could give my elf guy a run for his money, since even a Force 4 spell is pretty nasty versus a mundane. If Heirophant had to fight Big Jack one on one, he'd probably try to use his pretty good stealth skills to close in and get a surprise on Jack. He has a lot of armor and a dangerous defense pool, but even with that, 16 dice at 8P damage is something he'd think about tangling with head to head(he wouldn't know die pool, per se, but he'd see how Big Jack was pretty damn skilled with that thing.) With a Weapon Focus, Jack could likely get the advantage on him, though he'd have to contend with Heirophant's Riposte/Finishing Blow maneuvers as well.

In other words, yeah, I think Big Jack could be just as dangerous as the sam in the BBB at combat.

[Octopiii]

He has hacking programs but no computer skills so would make a very poor hacker.

Just a quick point: he has his computer skills in the form of activesofts, though looking back, I see I forgot to give him Electronic Warfare. Oops!

What about drones? I can't even run the numbers on this one as OMA literally can't affect them. Other than to try and pick one up with Levitate, there's nothing he can do. He has Physical Mask but his chance of affecting the drone even under the pre-Errata ORs is very small. The samurai, needless to say, isn't affected.

Well, my answer to that would be that OMA would attempt to hack the drones. That is, if he had electronic warfare to find their nodes in the first place [/facepalm]. Still, to be honest, magic was never very good at effecting technology as far as I'm concerned. An OR of 4 is equal to getting 4 successes on a resistance test, or 12 dice (that's a lot of counterspelling!). I could have given him an indirect combat spell such as lightening bolt, but the drain on those are so punishing I'm not sure it would be worth it.

But yes, OMA isn't going to be better than a specialist at anything, but he can fulfill almost every role; though as a face, he's only useful against people you don't need a working relationship with.

Also, one tactic you missed in your model fight was his ability to summon spiritual backup. Force 3 spirits aren't uber, but a Force 3 spirit throwing out confusion can still turn the tide.

Again, though, OMA doesn't prove Hermit's point. It does prove that the nerf to skillwires was necessary, however.

Another test could be: Can you build a mage that equals the samurai character from the BBB in combat?

That's actually not too difficult. My troll mage from a previous game could bring the pain, and soak damage with 17 dice. This was before I had Arsenal, so the number would easily get up into the 20's now. That guy had a 9 body (and no cyber).

I could easily build a mage to be just as good as mundane in ONE area, but that wasn't Hermit's point. OMA tried to replace an entire team, and I gave it my best shot, but now I'm stymied to think of a better way to do it. Multiple Increase Attribute spells, perhaps?

[Apathy]

Why is it that none of the mages are using a possession tradition? It grants both the survivability and high attributes that mages have such a hard time with. Granted, it gives up the versatility of manifesting spirits, but we're not trying to optimize the mage anyway. We're just trying to make him more samuri-like, right?

[Octopiii]

Why is it that none of the mages are using a possession tradition? It grants both the survivability and high attributes that mages have such a hard time with. Granted, it gives up the versatility of manifesting spirits, but we're not trying to optimize the mage anyway. We're just trying to make him more samuri-like, right?

Well, the original point that was being made was that the SR4A changes were necessary to keep a mage from replacing an entire team. Since the summoning and possession rules weren't changed, that doesn't really prove the point. We all know Possession is powerful, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[The Mack]

This is something that has bothered me about the recent editions. Mages seem more able to deal with cyber than before. I'd like it so magically active characters picked up that flaw that doubled essence loss but apply it to bioware as well as a side effect of picking up a magic talent.(getting no BP for it) Also back in the day mages made poor hackers, bring back the penalty to interacting with the matrix. Make it -2 dice with AR and -4 dice in VR.

I agree on these points. I don't think it should be much of an option for mages to get cyberware and then go ahead and re increase their magic score.

I also dislike the wording of initiation and raising magic scores. It should definitely have a limit (the mag score, not initiating).

Why is it that none of the mages are using a possession tradition? It grants both the survivability and high attributes that mages have such a hard time with. Granted, it gives up the versatility of manifesting spirits, but we're not trying to optimize the mage anyway. We're just trying to make him more samuri-like, right?

When it comes to possession, it's one of the few places I highly approve of OR 6. While it's a cool idea to be able to possess vehicles & drones, this is the riggers territory and possession is already powerful enough. It doesn't need to be able to possess drones with a good success rate IMO.

Well, the original point that was being made was that the SR4A changes were necessary to keep a mage from replacing an entire team. Since the summoning and possession rules weren't changed, that doesn't really prove the point.

And I think this is why so many of us have been totally baffled by some of the changes that were made to effectively nerf certain things so hard. While other things, like the points all mentioned above, as well as Overcasting, remain unchanged. These are things I think do need fixing and instead we got the inexplicable drain mechanic and the OR table of Doom. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)


Sorry for the OT posts.

[Apathy]

Well, the original point that was being made was that the SR4A changes were necessary to keep a mage from replacing an entire team. Since the summoning and possession rules weren't changed, that doesn't really prove the point. We all know Possession is powerful, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My impression had been that the original point stated that mages could replace anyone on the team, not that a single mage could replace the whole team. That a possession mage could get the stats and damage-soaking potential of a samurai. That a manifesting spirit summoner could replace the remote firepower of a drone rigger. That anything that could be shot with an assault rifle could be stun bolted or power bolted for easily-negated drain with damage that ignored armor and range penalties, and went against a stat (willpower) that was difficult to increase or protect through mundane/cyber means. No single, 400-point mage could perform all the tasks of 4 or 5 other people equally well, but that they could tailor a mage to perfom at least as well as any of the other 'classes' in their specialty. From a strictly meta-gaming perspective, there is little reason not to take the 15-point 'magician' quality, even if I want to have MBW2 and shoot a pistol.

Because mages and adepts use stats that don't cap, they have potentially unlimited growth potential. The only thing that keeps them from being gods is that they have limited BPs (or karma) to spread around. In SR4, it's not that difficult to build a mage who can both summon and cast spells at a reasonably high level. SR4(le) nerfs spellcasting some, which means that in order to be a vicious caster you'll have to specialize, and sacrifice more somewhere else, like not being able to both cast high force spells AND summon high force spirits. In my mind this is not insignificant.

[Mäx]

My impression had been that the original point stated that mages could replace anyone on the team, not that a single mage could replace the whole team.

No, Hermit really did claim that one mage can replace a whole team of runners.

[knasser]

Why is it that none of the mages are using a possession tradition? It grants both the survivability and high attributes that mages have such a hard time with. Granted, it gives up the versatility of manifesting spirits, but we're not trying to optimize the mage anyway. We're just trying to make him more samuri-like, right?

Actually, I think I have a pretty good handle on Possession as a GM and though I'm at odds with a lot of the opinions here, I don't think it's broken. Hermit hinted that his build was going to be a Voodoo magician and that's what I was waiting for. It's true that it doesn't much help the argument that the errata changes have made magicians more balanced, but I welcome a Possession-based attempt at a Samurai from anyone who wants to have a go.

(ElFenrir, I need a little time to go over your build - I'll get to it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

K.

[knasser]

Well, the original point that was being made was that the SR4A changes were necessary to keep a mage from replacing an entire team.

My impression had been that the original point stated that mages could replace anyone on the team, not that a single mage could replace the whole team.

It's a bit of a mix. Hermit stated that a magician was a one-man team. That was too absurd to deserve a challenge, but he also stated that a magician could do anything anyone else could do so I challenged him on that. I picked a Samurai as the most apparently easy class for Hermit to duplicate.

[elseif]

My impression had been that the original point stated that mages could replace anyone on the team, not that a single mage could replace the whole team. That a possession mage could get the stats and damage-soaking potential of a samurai.

No, this isn't the original point at all. A single mage can fill most roles in a group. That's not "replacing" anyone, that's simply filling a role in a different way. Not every group absolutely has to have a hacker; pretty much every group does need someone who can deal with certain computer related problems. Whether the person does that with magic or with computer skills is a secondary question.

The claim that mages were overpowered centered on the claim that they could do all these things, or at least several, at once. (A slightly more reasonable claim has been hinted at, namely that a single mage can do any role better than a mundane. But, while a few people have asserted this, I haven't seen any convincing evidence that mages are better, rather than different.)

From a strictly meta-gaming perspective, there is little reason not to take the 15-point 'magician' quality, even if I want to have MBW2 and shoot a pistol.

I don't see why. 15 points is not a trivial expenditure, and could, in many cases, be better spent either including core abilities, or, if you plan to eventually have additional abilities, start to work on those.

Because mages and adepts use stats that don't cap, they have potentially unlimited growth potential. The only thing that keeps them from being gods is that they have limited BPs (or karma) to spread around.

The only thing that keeps anyone from being a god is that they have limited BP/karma/nuyen to spend. With unlimited resources, I could max every attribute, skill, and buy top notch equipment, easily enough to replace, say, the street sam, hacker, rigger, and face from a group, all without magic.

But I can't do it with a starting character, or even a late-game character in almost any game.

If mages really did break that---if a starting mage could replace multiple roles---that would suggest that mages were OP. But I have yet to see any evidence of that.

[Mäx]

I don't see why. 15 points is not a trivial expenditure, and could, in many cases, be better spent either including core abilities, or, if you plan to eventually have additional abilities, start to work on those.

Especially becouse with Move-by-Wire 2 it's not 15 but 45 points for magic 1.

[knasser]

Just a quick point: he has his computer skills in the form of activesofts, though looking back, I see I forgot to give him Electronic Warfare. Oops!

Ohhhh. Really sorry for missing that. The stupid thing is that I noticed them earlier but I've been working so hard today that my brain is starting to drop things. I think I'm going to have a system crash shortly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Yes, that does change things slightly and it's not too late to swap out that First Aid Activesoft for Electronic Warfare. It's not ideal. It means you can only have two of those skills at once and it's a Simple Action to swap one in. Could be bad at the wrong moment and I'd rather have the skills. Can't use Edge, either. But he fulfils the secondary role a lot better than I said he did. So not bad.

I think I'll revise this character up to being around 70% Samurai. He's still going to be exposed as a magician now and then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Well, my answer to that would be that OMA would attempt to hack the drones. That is, if he had electronic warfare to find their nodes in the first place [/facepalm]. Still, to be honest, magic was never very good at effecting technology as far as I'm concerned. An OR of 4 is equal to getting 4 successes on a resistance test, or 12 dice (that's a lot of counterspelling!). I could have given him an indirect combat spell such as lightening bolt, but the drain on those are so punishing I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Indirect wouldn't be worth it with this character. He's not that good a magician. It depends a bit on what sort of standards GM's use but he'd have trouble protecting himself from attacking drones with those abilities in my game. Not saying couldn't, but would be pretty chancy. I think we're in agreement that the build is in trouble when faced with mechanical enemies?

But yes, OMA isn't going to be better than a specialist at anything, but he can fulfill almost every role; though as a face, he's only useful against people you don't need a working relationship with.

I'm not sure he fills the role of "magician" very well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But yes - he covers different roles better than I expected. But he's no Samurai. He just lacks the staying power.

Also, one tactic you missed in your model fight was his ability to summon spiritual backup. Force 3 spirits aren't uber, but a Force 3 spirit throwing out confusion can still turn the tide.

Yep. Spirits are good and even Force 3's are useful. I missed it out of my analysis not because it isn't a good thing for this build, but because it's not supplanting any of the Samurai's role. You could say a spirit helps soak some of the fire directed at him, but if he's got to summon a spirit in combat then that's a precious Complex action that the samurai would have used blasting people and it's bound in advance then that's 1,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) spent to soak some damage or do a few extra boxes of damage that the samurai would do for free (or at least the cost of a few bullets).

[Apathy]

Especially becouse with Move-by-Wire 2 it's not 15 but 45 points for magic 1.

Good point. I've always thought that the most [potentially] munchkiny quality in the game is latent awakening on a 1.0 essence character. Sooner or later, you're going to awaken as either an adept or mage with magic one, which would have cost you six points of magic and the 15-point quality if taken at chargen. All for just 5 BPs.

Truth is, for me it's all just theory. I've never had a group stick together long enough to get more than about 100 karma, which is nowhere near the point of diminishing returns for sammies. And unless I powergame, it doesn't really matter anyway.

[suppenhuhn]

Ok, here'S my go with a possession mage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Gaylord van Horn, Elven Savant

Metatype : Ork
Magician (Voodoo)

Attributes
Body: 5
Agility: 5
Reaction: 5
Strength: 3
Charisma: 4
Intuition: 3
Logic: 2
Willpower: 5

Edge: 1
Magic: 5
Initiative: 8
Essence: 6


Active Skills
Summoning (Guardian spirits) : 5+2
Binding (Guardian spirits) : 5+2
Assensing : 1
First Aid (Magical drain damage) : 3+2
Spellcasting : 3
Counterspelling : 3
Con : 2
Inflitration : 2
Perception : 2

Knowledge Skills
English : N
Sperethiel : 2
Magic Background (Path of Voodoo) : 3+2
Elven Society : 2
Club Circuit (Elf Clubs) : 2+2
Club Music (Elven Rap) : 2+2
Spirits : 2

Positive Qualities
Adrenaline Surge

Negative Qualities
In Debt
Elf poser

Weapons
FN HAR
300x Normal Ammo
50x SnS
50x Ex-Ex
Hammerli 620S
10x Narcojet Gas Grenade

Armors
Chick clothing
Mortimers Ulysses Line (6/4)
FFBA Half-Body Suit (4/1)

Vehicles
Eurocar Westwind 3K (third hand)

Equipments
Summoning Focus (Guardian) (Rating 3)
Power Focus (Rating 2)
Medkit (Rating 6)
6x Stimulant Patch (Rating 6)
Fake Sin (Rating 4)

Spells
Shapechange
Detect Enemies

Spirits
Guardian Spirit (5 tasks)

Contacts
4 points

Combat Form
16 dice with assault rifle
15 dice to dodge
Body 10
Armor 20/15(10/10 Hardened)
Reaction 10
Initiative 15
IP 2