I ran my First 4E game, I have some ?, Rule Clarrifications, Thoughts Options

[CultClassic]

I ran my first shadowrun4E game on Saturday. It was a momentous occasion for me. I had a group of seven players. It’s been over 7years since I last GM’D a shadowrun game. It was fun, challenging and a little chaotic. The game at times slowed for rules clarifications; this usually happened when the technomancer wanted to do something in the matrix. But there was also slow down when it came down to the two magically inclined PC’s (shamanic magician, and mystic adept) So what follows are a few rule questions???

When a technomancer is granted an admin account; does he have free will to do what he wants in a system; or does he still have to hack devices within the system in order to control ex. (doors, locks, cameras, lights)?

Can the technomancer with admin access open the credit or nuyen account associated with the node in question and steal the revenue, or would he have to track it to another location to access?. The above happened in a bar.

Does a mage with the Imp. Invisibility spell show up automatically when someone is perceiving astraly or does the successes from the spell still have to be overcome against the perceivers willpower? If the spell is sustained with a focus, does the focus show up automatically? Or is the Focus concealed with the Invisibility spell.

Can a mage cast a spell on someone, go astral and follow that person with the spell still sustained?

When a grenade Is thrown on the last IP of the combat turn. Does it go off on the throwers IP in the new combat turn? Or does it have its own Initiative?

Can a mage target a point on the ground behind a target with an area spell in order to hit targets not seen? (The spell in question was a stunball and it was placed a meter behind the target).

These were a few questions and problems that came up during the game. I settled them all but I want to make sure I settled them correctly. Any thoughts and feedback would be greatly appreciated… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[raggedhalo]

When a technomancer is granted an admin account; does he have free will to do what he wants in a system; or does he still have to hack devices within the system in order to control ex. (doors, locks, cameras, lights)?

Yes, pretty much. Unless the system's on alert, in which case all bets are off.

Can the technomancer with admin access open the credit or nuyen account associated with the node in question and steal the revenue, or would he have to track it to another location to access?. The above happened in a bar.

They can, but it leaves a pretty clear electronic trail that will be used by law enforcement to kick their ass.

Does a mage with the Imp. Invisibility spell show up automatically when someone is perceiving astraly or does the successes from the spell still have to be overcome against the perceivers willpower? If the spell is sustained with a focus, does the focus show up automatically? Or is the Focus concealed with the Invisibility spell.

The spells don't make you any less visible in the astral. A successful Assensing Test would still be needed to identify foci and stuff, but they'd be visible.

Can a mage cast a spell on someone, go astral and follow that person with the spell still sustained?

I don't believe so.

Can a mage target a point on the ground behind a target with an area spell in order to hit targets not seen? (The spell in question was a stunball and it was placed a meter behind the target).

No. The only spells that can ever affect unseen targets are indirect combat spells. Stunball is a direct combat spell and thus can only affect spells within LOS.

I would rule that, even if it were an indirect combat spell, it would still need to be centred on a particular target (i.e. a person or thing). You can't target nothing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[deek]

When a technomancer is granted an admin account; does he have free will to do what he wants in a system; or does he still have to hack devices within the system in order to control ex. (doors, locks, cameras, lights)?

It really depends on what you want to allow. I've had some systems that an admin account basically allows free will in the system. But other times I've specifically defined what an admin account is capable of doing. It really all depends on what you want to allow. The simplest is to allow free will. That is also the quickest to resolve in game.

Can the technomancer with admin access open the credit or nuyen account associated with the node in question and steal the revenue, or would he have to track it to another location to access?. The above happened in a bar.

Again, its your choice. I try to let the hacker/techno do enough that they feel good about their role, but not so much that they would rather play the whole session in the matrix and monopolize everyone's time. Normally I don't allow easy money to be made as your example implies could be done, but I do allow money to be made from selling the information they just picked up.

[Malachi]

Does a mage with the Imp. Invisibility spell show up automatically when someone is perceiving astraly or does the successes from the spell still have to be overcome against the perceivers willpower? If the spell is sustained with a focus, does the focus show up automatically? Or is the Focus concealed with the Invisibility spell.

It is actually easier to see someone in the Astral if they have a spell currently affecting them.

Can a mage cast a spell on someone, go astral and follow that person with the spell still sustained?

I would allow this, yes. Note that a Magician only needs LOS to cast the spell initially. They do not need to maintain LOS in order to continue sustaining the spell.

When a grenade Is thrown on the last IP of the combat turn. Does it go off on the throwers IP in the new combat turn? Or does it have its own Initiative?

It would go off on Initiative 0 on the last Pass of the Combat Turn.

Can a mage target a point on the ground behind a target with an area spell in order to hit targets not seen? (The spell in question was a stunball and it was placed a meter behind the target).

Direct Combat spell can only affect things that a Magician can see. I have always played it that Mana-based spells must target a living thing, while Physical spells can target any point the magician can see, but only objects seen are affected in either case. The Magician can target Indirect Combat Spells anywhere they like: they are identical to any other range attack (like shooting a gun).

I'm glad you enjoyed your first session. Keep the game fast and fun! Welcome to the Shadows.

[Neraph]

I ran my first shadowrun4E game on Saturday. It was a momentous occasion for me. I had a group of seven players. It’s been over 7years since I last GM’D a shadowrun game. It was fun, challenging and a little chaotic. The game at times slowed for rules clarifications; this usually happened when the technomancer wanted to do something in the matrix. But there was also slow down when it came down to the two magically inclined PC’s (shamanic magician, and mystic adept) So what follows are a few rule questions???

When a technomancer is granted an admin account; does he have free will to do what he wants in a system; or does he still have to hack devices within the system in order to control ex. (doors, locks, cameras, lights)?

Pretty much.

Can the technomancer with admin access open the credit or nuyen account associated with the node in question and steal the revenue, or would he have to track it to another location to access?. The above happened in a bar.

Depends. I'd say no. He has an admin account, yes, but one he just created, and as such, not the owner's account.

Does a mage with the Imp. Invisibility spell show up automatically when someone is perceiving astraly or does the successes from the spell still have to be overcome against the perceivers willpower? If the spell is sustained with a focus, does the focus show up automatically? Or is the Focus concealed with the Invisibility spell.

Glarlingly so, I'd say. I'd add all spells/foci he has on together, and subtract that from the successes needed to see him. Magic is much easier to spot on the astral. It's like a guy wearing glo-sticks and flashlights in a dark room.

Can a mage cast a spell on someone, go astral and follow that person with the spell still sustained?

He doesn't even need to keep the guy in LoS.

Do you need to maintain line of sight (or touch, with Touch range spells) to sustain a spell? What about Permanent spells?

No, once a spell is cast, you do not need to maintain touch or line of sight. You must maintain touch or line of sight when casting a Permanent spell, however, until the spell's effects become permanent.

When a grenade Is thrown on the last IP of the combat turn. Does it go off on the throwers IP in the new combat turn? Or does it have its own Initiative?

It goes off on the next IP of the person who threw it, unless it is equipped with an Airburst link.

As noted under Timed Items and Initiative (p. 135), a grenade detonates on the next Initiative Pass using the Initiative Score of the character who threw it (unless the attacker is using an airburst link, see p. 310, in which it detonates on that Action Phase).

Can a mage target a point on the ground behind a target with an area spell in order to hit targets not seen? (The spell in question was a stunball and it was placed a meter behind the target).

When casting an Indirect Combat spell, do you need to see the target? Or can you cast at a target completely behind cover since they use ranged combat rules?
You do need the see the primary target of the spell. However, as noted in the errata, Indirect Combat spells will affect other targets that are unseen by the caster as long as they are caught within the spell's area of effect.

Note that the same ruling for grenades applies to Indirect Combat spells cast "at the ground" -- if the attempt is to catch targets in the spell's effect radius, treat it as an Opposed Test, no matter where the spell is actually aimed.

Emphasis added. That's a ruling for Indirect, but the italicised part is just as applicable.

These were a few questions and problems that came up during the game. I settled them all but I want to make sure I settled them correctly. Any thoughts and feedback would be greatly appreciated… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

I hope that helps.

[CultClassic]

No. The only spells that can ever affect unseen targets are indirect combat spells. Stunball is a direct combat spell and thus can only affect spells within LOS.

I would rule that, even if it were an indirect combat spell, it would still need to be centred on a particular target (i.e. a person or thing). You can't target nothing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ok so if he targets someone he can see and its an area effect mana spell, will the area extend to targets unseen?

[CultClassic]

Thanks guys for all the imput... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Neraph]

Ok so if he targets someone he can see and its an area effect mana spell, will the area extend to targets unseen?

Indirect combat spells will. Actually, by the Area Spells paragraph on page 173, SR4, all AoE spells work the same. However, the inital target must be a legal target (no manaballing the vehicle), and the mage must see the middle of the area burst (again, he must see the initial target from which the spell radiates outward from).

[CultClassic]

Thanks Neraph, thats exaclty what i wanted to know.

[raggedhalo]

Ok so if he targets someone he can see and its an area effect mana spell, will the area extend to targets unseen?

Nope. With a direct Combat spell like Stunball you can _never_ affect targets unseen.

[Neraph]

Nope. With a direct Combat spell like Stunball you can _never_ affect targets unseen.

Can you quote a page? I didn't look too terribly hard, but I checked the Direct Combat Spells header before the Combat Spells listing, and Area Spells on page 176 (or whatever it was).

[Neraph]

Note that unlike other spells, Indirect Combat spells may affect other targets that the caster cannot see if they are caught within the spell's area of effect.

That implies that all other spells (even AoE) don't work if they're out of LoS.

[TheOOB]

To clarify the grenade issue, note that there can be as many init passes in a combat round as is necessary. Just because players can only act in the first 4, a grenade can detonate in the 5th pass(though it will likely be the only action in that pass).

[Method]

When a technomancer is granted an admin account; does he have free will to do what he wants in a system; or does he still have to hack devices within the system in order to control ex. (doors, locks, cameras, lights)?

The GM determines what privileges are allowed to each account. Admin accounts can generally do just about anything, but this should be based on the purpose of the node. For example- the pilot of a suborbital probably has admin access, but he probably can't disable the life support or open the door while outside the atmosphere. In order to do stuff like that you have to use a Hacking skill to make the node do things above and beyond its basic programming.

Can the technomancer with admin access open the credit or nuyen account associated with the node in question and steal the revenue, or would he have to track it to another location to access?. The above happened in a bar.

I would say that many Admin accounts would allow funds transfer, but that doesn't make this a great idea. That money has to go somewhere- i.e. if your TM is dumb enough to transfer those funds to his own account, he better be smart enough to edit the Access Log or they will come knocking on his door. And again it is dependent on the function of the node. The node in a bar that tracks alcohol use or the node that streams music to the club's sound system might not have direct access to the node that is used for money transactions. And that node probably has greatly improved security over the others.

Does a mage with the Imp. Invisibility spell show up automatically when someone is perceiving astraly...

Like a torch in the dark....

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

It is actually easier to see someone in the Astral if they have a spell currently affecting them.

Not universally true - you can't default an astral perception (i.e. intuition+assensing) check, relatively few people really raise their assensing skill as high as normal perception and they don't get those oh-so-useful image-enhancing gear bonuses, so it's actually fairly easy to hide from a mage astrally even with a spell aura on you. OTOH, a spirit will normally spot you no problem.

[Neraph]

Not universally true - you can't default an astral perception (i.e. intuition+assensing) check, relatively few people really raise their assensing skill as high as normal perception and they don't get those oh-so-useful image-enhancing gear bonuses, so it's actually fairly easy to hide from a mage astrally even with a spell aura on you. OTOH, a spirit will normally spot you no problem.

That's assuming you're trying to hide (in which case it becomes an opposed test), otherwise it's just a Success test (and with active spells/foci, an easy one). Even then, active spells/foci might even make you easier to see while you're trying to Stealth.

[Malachi]

Not universally true - you can't default an astral perception (i.e. intuition+assensing) check, relatively few people really raise their assensing skill as high as normal perception and they don't get those oh-so-useful image-enhancing gear bonuses, so it's actually fairly easy to hide from a mage astrally even with a spell aura on you. OTOH, a spirit will normally spot you no problem.

My reference to "easier" was in relation to attempting to Astrally spot them without an active spell effect, not in relation to spotting them with standard perception. To clarify: it is easier to spot someone astrally when they have an active spell effect on them than if they don't.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

And I agree with that - but the cannot-default comment stands. I've seen a few players skip assensing as "not-critical."

[evilgoattea]

QUOTE (CultClassic @ Mar 23 2009, 11:07 AM)
Can the technomancer with admin access open the credit or nuyen account associated with the node in question and steal the revenue, or would he have to track it to another location to access?. The above happened in a bar.


They can, but it leaves a pretty clear electronic trail that will be used by law enforcement to kick their ass.

Isn't it a lot harder to track technomancers? I think that only another Technomancer can read a data trail left by a technomancer and they can also spoof their trail just by thinking it pretty much...or at least that is what the rules are they are worded have left me to believe.

[Malachi]

Isn't it a lot harder to track technomancers? I think that only another Technomancer can read a data trail left by a technomancer and they can also spoof their trail just by thinking it pretty much...or at least that is what the rules are they are worded have left me to believe.

Yes and no. Technomancers do leave a "Resonance signature" in a system (very analogous to a Magical signature) that can be read by other Technomancers. However, what they are doing with in a system (altering files, transferring money) is still affecting the electronics and thus can be analyzed and backtracked by non-technomancers. So yes, it is quite difficult to run a Trace User action on a Technomancer's actions because they've probably changed their Access ID by now. However, if the Technomancer altered a system to transfer all the money from a Bar's bank to their own, the evidence of that transfer is still left behind. It would be equivalent to holding someone at gunpoint, having them right a cheque to you, then endorsing the back and depositing it at your local bank. Someone following the trail would say "hmmm."

[Draco18s]

It would be equivalent to holding someone who is blindfolded at gunpoint, having them right a cheque to you, then endorsing the back and depositing it at your local bank. Someone following the trail would say "hmmm."

Fixed. The person wrote you a check without knowing who you were. The rest is still right though.

[CultClassic]

Ok, so If the Technomancer downloads the account information and transfers the funds; can he not just erase the the actual transaction after it is complete. Could the data trail cease to exist, or would that enatail a new set of problems?

[Draco18s]

Ok, so If the Technomancer downloads the account information and transfers the funds; can he not just erase the the actual transaction after it is complete. Could the data trail cease to exist, or would that enatail a new set of problems?

You forget that money keeps its own data trail with it. That's what makes money so hard to counterfeit and steal.

[Dreadlord]

And I agree with that - but the cannot-default comment stands. I've seen a few players skip assensing as "not-critical."

Heehee... My mage player learned that one the hard way!! He went astral perception and asked, "So what does the Johnson look like in astral?" I answered, "Roll Assensing with no defaulting!"
"Uh, I don't have that."
"Then you don't understand what you are seeing at all!"

[Neraph]

You forget that money keeps its own data trail with it. That's what makes money so hard to counterfeit and steal.

That's what they made Credsticks for. That breaks the trail, IIRC.