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> Player Created Dragon Karmagen build, Anyone come up with a karmagen build for dragons yet?
Athanatos
post Mar 25 2009, 09:10 AM
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I remember before Runner's Companion came out, there was talk about players creating Karmagen Rules for dragons. Has anyone come up with anything? If so please share.
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Draco18s
post Mar 25 2009, 01:32 PM
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I think at one point we did the math on their raw BP cost (not Karama-gen) and a dragon's one 40 stat is 370 BP, plus a few other stats, offer a slight discount (say 50%)....and still end up with a number over six or eight hundred
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Nominal Readings
post Mar 25 2009, 02:09 PM
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I really don't think dragons need to be statted. If you find yourself up against one, or playing one, dice are quickly not going to be involved. Much hurting will be.
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Medicineman
post Mar 25 2009, 02:21 PM
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don't mix Great Dragons with Dragons (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
And Dragons are not invulnerable Gods. We're not playingg DSA (The Black Eye), ist SR and with SR much more is possible, even Chars killing Dragons (I'm not talking about an easy Kill,But I dislike People saying Upfront "Nay thats Impossible" without thinking about it)
Dragons are playable with the SR4 Rules
@Athanatos
There where official Rules about playing Dragons. it was on the first or second of April last Year (IIRC)


HougH!
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Nominal Readings
post Mar 25 2009, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE (Nominal Readings @ Mar 25 2009, 10:09 AM) *
I really don't think dragons need to be statted. If you find yourself up against one, or playing one, dice are quickly not going to be involved. Much hurting will be.


Yeah. It was April First. It was an April Fool's joke! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Medicineman
post Mar 25 2009, 02:32 PM
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It might have been a Aprils fools Joke in General,but the Creationrules themselves where OK and playable with the SR4 Rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

....oO(Wonder what they'll come up with in a few days ...)

he who dances with the Easterbunny
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HappyDaze
post Mar 25 2009, 02:40 PM
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QUOTE
....oO(Wonder what they'll come up with in a few days ...)

With the lead developer role changing hands and at least one freelancer being let go, I wouldn't expect anything outside of 'creative cruise control' for the time being.
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MJBurrage
post Mar 25 2009, 02:49 PM
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It was a three page "excerpt" from the then forthcoming Runner's Companion. If the PDF is still online I could not find it easily, but as long as it is noted for what it was, I think they should keep it available.

Anyway, in the three pages of rules tweaks, it also gave the following table:

DRACONIC ATTRIBUTE TABLE
CODE
BP   Dragon              BOD   AGI   REA    STR   CHA   INT   LOG   WIL   MAG    INI
325  Eastern Dragon     12/24  5/12  5/10  30/40  5/10  5/10  5/10  5/10  6/10  10/22
300  Feathered Serpent  10/22  2/10  5/10  25/35  5/10  5/10  5/10  5/10  6/10   7/20
300  Leviathan           9/20  2/10  5/10  30/40  5/10  5/10  5/10  5/10  6/10   7/20
325  Western Dragon     12/28  4/12  5/10  35/45  5/10  5/10  5/10  5/10  6/10   9/22

Innate Abilities (all four types):
  +2 Reach, +1 IP, Natural Weapon (Bite/Claws: DV 10P, AP –2)
Movement:
  Eastern Dragon:    15/50 (30/100 flight)
  Feathered Serpent: 15/50 (30/100 flight)
  Leviathan:         15/30 (30/75 swimming)
  Western Dragon:    15/40 (30/60 flight)
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suppenhuhn
post Mar 25 2009, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ Mar 25 2009, 03:21 PM) *
And Dragons are not invulnerable Gods.


Ah that reminds me of our first adventure back in the days when we played SR1.
Our mercenary, who hadn't been able to fire a single shot during the whole game, thanks to two guys with wired reflexes, decided to take a shot at it, rolled like a maniac and killed it in a single burst. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
Good times, good times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/talker.gif)
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Draco18s
post Mar 25 2009, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ Mar 25 2009, 10:21 AM) *
don't mix Great Dragons with Dragons (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
And Dragons are not invulnerable Gods


Western Dragons still have* a Strength of 40, Reaction of 8 and Body of 15.
Melee combat = win?

8 dice to dodging (even bullets without Full Defense) is still double the dice most metahumans have.
With an 8 charisma, a dragon can default on Con and still have more dice than the average metahuman does to Judge Intent.

Base stats of a (western) dragon are worth about 780 BP (10 BP per attribute > 1, not including edge), so you're getting a 60% (!!!) discount with the April Fools table posted above, and then getting Reach and an extra initiative pass, Magic (1?), Flight, Natural Weapons, Hardened Armor 8** and more.

Great Dragons have stats in excess of this. They're nucking futs.

*Average, assuming the values in the friends and foes section

**That's 23 dice to soak damage, assuming that the modified damage value is 9 or better.
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Starmage21
post Mar 25 2009, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2009, 12:19 PM) *
Western Dragons still have* a Strength of 40, Reaction of 8 and Body of 15.
Melee combat = win?

8 dice to dodging (even bullets without Full Defense) is still double the dice most metahumans have.
With an 8 charisma, a dragon can default on Con and still have more dice than the average metahuman does to Judge Intent.

Base stats of a (western) dragon are worth about 780 BP (10 BP per attribute > 1, not including edge), so you're getting a 60% (!!!) discount with the April Fools table posted above, and then getting Reach and an extra initiative pass, Magic (1?), Flight, Natural Weapons, Hardened Armor 8** and more.

Great Dragons have stats in excess of this. They're nucking futs.

*Average, assuming the values in the friends and foes section

**That's 23 dice to soak damage, assuming that the modified damage value is 9 or better.


Going into melee with a dragon is a lot like going melee with the rigger's car. Bad idea, same effect. Whoever is getting hit by the car is just freaking paste on the road.

**Edit**
And having playtested them using a BP build, thats about how it works out too. Anywhere the wheelman can use his car as a weapon, the dragon can go melee. Everywhere else, the dragon is usually limited to some metahuman form, and that pretty much means he's the mage while on the run, and the rigger(wheelman) while travelling between.
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Draco18s
post Mar 25 2009, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Mar 25 2009, 01:43 PM) *
Going into melee with a dragon is a lot like going melee with the rigger's car. Bad idea, same effect. Whoever is getting hit by the car is just freaking paste on the road.


Well duh. That's why the dragon initiates the melee. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
This is dragon-PCs we're talking about.
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Medicineman
post Mar 25 2009, 05:58 PM
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Mighty ,Yes
Intelligent,Strong ,
with Magical Back-Up and Wealthy Yes
Way out of League to most of The Humans
but not Invulnerable to a well planned Ambush
The two Difficult parts are preparing the Ambush without the Dragon noticing it
and not getting him recover from Surprise !
If the Ambush is executed within 1 or 2 Rounds (maximum),
even a Dragon wouldn't stand a Chance . STR 40 means nothing to a Salvo of Thunderstruck Ammo,a collapsing 10 Story Building,a dozen Claymore Mines,an exploding Car, a Vindicator Minigun with APDS Ammo and about 20 Waterbombs with DMSO and ...whats the name of the Drug that makes You highly sensible to sensations ?..

with an Ambushdance
Medicineman
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Starmage21
post Mar 25 2009, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2009, 12:45 PM) *
Well duh. That's why the dragon initiates the melee. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
This is dragon-PCs we're talking about.



I did a little edit while you were typing.
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Draco18s
post Mar 25 2009, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Mar 25 2009, 01:43 PM) *
**Edit**
And having playtested them using a BP build, thats about how it works out too. Anywhere the wheelman can use his car as a weapon, the dragon can go melee. Everywhere else, the dragon is usually limited to some metahuman form, and that pretty much means he's the mage while on the run, and the rigger(wheelman) while travelling between.


Dragons are good mages. Have the benefit of not being squishy too.
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Starmage21
post Mar 25 2009, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2009, 01:12 PM) *
Dragons are good mages. Have the benefit of not being squishy too.


Theyre great mages!

Thats really the only thing that came close to real brokennation with them in play. Being able to summon any type of spirit is rediculous.

A good tweak would be to make them pick 5 spirits at creation, and then theyre stuck with em. Maybe with Karma they can switch em out.
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Athanatos
post Mar 26 2009, 04:09 AM
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I don't deny that it would be expensive, but I like rules for Karmagening anything. I do have a copy of the April Fools joke, and they even mentioned that it might be workable with a few player tweaks. I was asking if anyone had come up with those tweaks. I also picture the fate of your fellow runners if the opposition is prepared. Loaded for dragon more than takes care of the Street Sammy and Mage lol.
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Athanatos
post Mar 26 2009, 04:09 AM
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I don't deny that it would be expensive, but I like rules for Karmagening anything. I do have a copy of the April Fools joke, and they even mentioned that it might be workable with a few player tweaks. I was asking if anyone had come up with those tweaks. I also picture the fate of your fellow runners if the opposition is prepared. Loaded for dragon more than takes care of the Street Sammy and Mage lol.


Sorry, double post.

PS. Noone ever seems to understand my sigs.
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merashin
post Mar 26 2009, 04:45 AM
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dragons aren't impossible to take down even with planning, my group fought one without getting the drop on it and we didn't lose a single character, albeit it was a feathered serpent which is weaker than the others.
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tete
post Mar 26 2009, 04:46 AM
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just say no dude
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Draco18s
post Mar 26 2009, 04:47 AM
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How about dragons are perfectly playable, you get 50 BP for skills, and your attacks do 1-2 megadamage.
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MJBurrage
post Apr 5 2009, 02:21 PM
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I did find the related links from last year, and posted them in another thread.

For those that missed it, here are links for the Runner's Companion "preview" posted as an April Fools' Day joke last year:
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Starmage21
post Apr 5 2009, 07:15 PM
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QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Apr 5 2009, 09:21 AM) *
I did find the related links from last year, and posted them in another thread.

For those that missed it, here are links for the Runner's Companion "preview" posted as an April Fools' Day joke last year:


Yup, and played as written Dragons kinda suck. About 1/2 way between a rigged vehicle and a decent mage.
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