Ammo abbreviations, I don't understand 10(ml) x 4 Options

[Cheapshot]

There is a table that starts on page 307 of the SR4 rulebook. I don't see a definition for the ammo types. for instance the Defiance EX Shocker has 4(m) in the ammo column. the Rancor Sting has 5( c ) and the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki has 10(ml) x 4. Is there a reference for these abbreviations ( c ), (m), (ml) ?

[hobgoblin]

p312, reloading firearms table.

basically they are the way the weapon is reloaded:
clip ( c )
internal magazine ( m )
muzzle loaded ( ml )

[MYST1C]

p312, reloading firearms table.

Alternatively, p. 300, Gear Ratings sidebar, first entry ("Ammo").

muzzle loaded ( ml )

Though this is misleading with the Sakura Fubuki as that gun in fact uses pre-loaded swapable barrels...

[hobgoblin]

yep, but the issues will be mostly the same, so i do not see a problem with using the same rules.

(and i'm about to get yelled at by a firearms enthusiast again)

[Cheapshot]

That clarifies it greatly. Thanks all.

[Doc Byte]

Though this is misleading with the Sakura Fubuki as that gun in fact uses pre-loaded swapable barrels...

Seeing a metal storm weapon in action at youtube's really scary. I knew a player who chose a Fubuki because he thought it to be a cool looking light pistol. Well, first shot first kill... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[hobgoblin]

funny thing is that i think its classified as light for its ammo, not its size...

i would give it a -1 threshold on concealment...

[Degausser]

It is interesting to note that Shadowrun, since its inception, has been wrong, as all my gun nut friends are quick to point out. What the game calls a clip is actually a magazine. For instance, when you load a standard pistol with bullets, you are place bullets into the magazine, then put the magazine into the gun. A CLIP is a precursor to the magazine, that old bolt action rifles used. You place the ammo into a thin strip of metal (looking a lot like a money clip) and load that into the gun. The game DOOM made this mistake too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(firearms)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripper_clip

Now, you can throw a lot of terminology around, and it is a lot more complicated than that (couldn't just have one name for the thing you stick bullets into to stick into the gun) but the gist of it is: Shadowrun's terminology is wrong, as all of my players are quick to point out whenever they can.

Anyway, yes, the Sakura Fubuki is a Muzzel Loader, which means you insert the rounds down the barrel of the gun. There are 4 barrels on the Fubuki, so that is why it is listed as 10x4 ml.

[hobgoblin]

its not just SR that gets it wrong. i think i have seen magazines referred to as clips in all kinds of games.

[AllTheNothing]

Though this is misleading with the Sakura Fubuki as that gun in fact uses pre-loaded swapable barrels...

There's nothing in the rules that states that the Fubuki has swapable barrels, in the Great Dragon missile launcher it's stated that the targeting system is reusable while the rest is disposable, no similar statement is aviable for the Fubuki, nor there are spare barrels (spare clips are by far too cheap to be the answer); in my opinion that mazzle loader means exactlty what it says: you push stacks of caseless ammo in the muzzle, with the option of reloading each barrel separately or reload all the barrels at the same time using a special loader (wich would be the spare clip).

[hobgoblin]

someone dig up the other thread(s) on this subject...

[AllTheNothing]

its not just SR that gets it wrong. i think i have seen magazines referred to as clips in all kinds of games.

I think it's mainly for distinguish betwen internal and detachable magazines, after all striper clips are meant for fast reloading of internal magazines (or so is what I was able to understand).

@ Hobgoblin
Out of Topic: I've noticed that you've chosen to be a panda! instead of a Great Dragon, what I don't Get is why just a panda! instead of a Panda!?

[Draco18s]

There's nothing in the rules that states that the Fubuki has swapable barrels

No, but there's an awesome picture of the fubuki with a spare barrel and the insertion line.

[hobgoblin]

I think it's mainly for distinguish betwen internal and detachable magazines, after all striper clips are meant for fast reloading of internal magazines (or so is what I was able to understand).

could be...

@ Hobgoblin
Out of Topic: I've noticed that you've chosen to be a panda! instead of a Great Dragon, what I don't Get is why just a panda! instead of a Panda!?

heh, no specific reason.

[AllTheNothing]

No, but there's an awesome picture of the fubuki with a spare barrel and the insertion line.

Where?

[hobgoblin]

Where?

SR4, 302, right next to the description (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[AllTheNothing]

SR4, 302, right next to the description (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It could be, but it could be the loader used to insert the bullets in the barrel, it's hard to tell from that picture, and I'm still thinking that the barrel swapping operation is not the most practical way to reload the weapon.

[Draco18s]

It could be, but it could be the loader used to insert the bullets in the barrel, it's hard to tell from that picture, and I'm still thinking that the barrel swapping operation is not the most practical way to reload the weapon.

But shoving bullets one by one into the barrel is?

Metal Storm Reloading, at 1:35 or so. Guy replaces an insert in the barrel that contains the 'nades. The barrel itself isn't replaced, but you don't shove them in one by one.

[Dwight]

The artist dropped by here some time back and I thought he explained that exchangeable barrels was his intention? Although he's just some artist's interpretation of the technology. In the end what is "barrel" and what is not can be a bit blurred when you are slipping a sleeve containing the rounds inside of another structure. Where does the barrel start and stop becomes a bit of a philosophical question for angels on the head of pins.

[Draco18s]

Right. So while "muzzle loading" might be the most appropriate annotation for the action, you aren't shoving individual rounds into the thing.

[Dakka Dakka]

By RAW you are shoving 10 bullets at once into the barrel with a Complex Action. Wether you explain that by exchangeable barrels or some kind of speed loader is up to you.

[hobgoblin]

But shoving bullets one by one into the barrel is?

Metal Storm Reloading, at 1:35 or so. Guy replaces an insert in the barrel that contains the 'nades. The barrel itself isn't replaced, but you don't shove them in one by one.

love the part where they bump the speed up to 3000rpm or there about. talk about hitlers zipper to the nth (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

btw, this may be interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_storm#Features

note the last part, where its mentioned that they have concepts worked up for just about any kind of reload solution. including replacing the whole barrel.

also, at 40 rounds, how often do one plan to reload? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

oh, and the entry in the tablet on page 312 is somewhat interesting, 1 complex action to insert one muzzle tube.

[Dwight]

also, at 40 rounds, how often do one plan to reload? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Fairly often unless you don't bother using the very low recoil BF, which is pretty much the point of the weapon.

[Dakka Dakka]

Fairly often unless you don't bother using the very low recoil BF, which is pretty much the point of the weapon.

With 2 three round bursts a skilled shooter should drop a target. So that's about 6 targets per loaded weapon. How big a battle are you planning?

Outside of combat reload time is pretty much a non-issue

[Draco18s]

Personally I think it does 4 round bursts just due to the number of rounds in it. It's really a good question what the designers intended (3 rounds? 4 rounds? From the same barrel, from different barrels?)