There is a table that starts on page 307 of the SR4 rulebook. I don't see a definition for the ammo types. for instance the Defiance EX Shocker has 4(m) in the ammo column. the Rancor Sting has 5( c ) and the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki has 10(ml) x 4. Is there a reference for these abbreviations ( c ), (m), (ml) ?

p312, reloading firearms table.

basically they are the way the weapon is reloaded:
clip ( c )
internal magazine ( m )
muzzle loaded ( ml )

Alternatively, p. 300, Gear Ratings sidebar, first entry ("Ammo").
Though this is misleading with the Sakura Fubuki as that gun in fact uses pre-loaded swapable barrels...

yep, but the issues will be mostly the same, so i do not see a problem with using the same rules.

(and i'm about to get yelled at by a firearms enthusiast again)

That clarifies it greatly. Thanks all.

Seeing a metal storm weapon in action at youtube's really scary. I knew a player who chose a Fubuki because he thought it to be a cool looking light pistol. Well, first shot first kill...

funny thing is that i think its classified as light for its ammo, not its size...

i would give it a -1 threshold on concealment...

It is interesting to note that Shadowrun, since its inception, has been wrong, as all my gun nut friends are quick to point out. What the game calls a clip is actually a magazine. For instance, when you load a standard pistol with bullets, you are place bullets into the magazine, then put the magazine into the gun. A CLIP is a precursor to the magazine, that old bolt action rifles used. You place the ammo into a thin strip of metal (looking a lot like a money clip) and load that into the gun. The game DOOM made this mistake too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(firearms)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripper_clip

Now, you can throw a lot of terminology around, and it is a lot more complicated than that (couldn't just have one name for the thing you stick bullets into to stick into the gun) but the gist of it is: Shadowrun's terminology is wrong, as all of my players are quick to point out whenever they can.

Anyway, yes, the Sakura Fubuki is a Muzzel Loader, which means you insert the rounds down the barrel of the gun. There are 4 barrels on the Fubuki, so that is why it is listed as 10x4 ml.

its not just SR that gets it wrong. i think i have seen magazines referred to as clips in all kinds of games.

There's nothing in the rules that states that the Fubuki has swapable barrels, in the Great Dragon missile launcher it's stated that the targeting system is reusable while the rest is disposable, no similar statement is aviable for the Fubuki, nor there are spare barrels (spare clips are by far too cheap to be the answer); in my opinion that mazzle loader means exactlty what it says: you push stacks of caseless ammo in the muzzle, with the option of reloading each barrel separately or reload all the barrels at the same time using a special loader (wich would be the spare clip).

someone dig up the other thread(s) on this subject...

I think it's mainly for distinguish betwen internal and detachable magazines, after all striper clips are meant for fast reloading of internal magazines (or so is what I was able to understand).

@ Hobgoblin
Out of Topic: I've noticed that you've chosen to be a panda! instead of a Great Dragon, what I don't Get is why just a panda! instead of a Panda!?

No, but there's an awesome picture of the fubuki with a spare barrel and the insertion line.

could be...


heh, no specific reason.

Where?

SR4, 302, right next to the description

It could be, but it could be the loader used to insert the bullets in the barrel, it's hard to tell from that picture, and I'm still thinking that the barrel swapping operation is not the most practical way to reload the weapon.

But shoving bullets one by one into the barrel is?

Metal Storm Reloading, at 1:35 or so. Guy replaces an insert in the barrel that contains the 'nades. The barrel itself isn't replaced, but you don't shove them in one by one.

The artist dropped by here some time back and I thought he explained that exchangeable barrels was his intention? Although he's just some artist's interpretation of the technology. In the end what is "barrel" and what is not can be a bit blurred when you are slipping a sleeve containing the rounds inside of another structure. Where does the barrel start and stop becomes a bit of a philosophical question for angels on the head of pins.

Right. So while "muzzle loading" might be the most appropriate annotation for the action, you aren't shoving individual rounds into the thing.

By RAW you are shoving 10 bullets at once into the barrel with a Complex Action. Wether you explain that by exchangeable barrels or some kind of speed loader is up to you.

love the part where they bump the speed up to 3000rpm or there about. talk about hitlers zipper to the nth

btw, this may be interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_storm#Features

note the last part, where its mentioned that they have concepts worked up for just about any kind of reload solution. including replacing the whole barrel.

also, at 40 rounds, how often do one plan to reload?

oh, and the entry in the tablet on page 312 is somewhat interesting, 1 complex action to insert one muzzle tube.

Fairly often unless you don't bother using the very low recoil BF, which is pretty much the point of the weapon.

With 2 three round bursts a skilled shooter should drop a target. So that's about 6 targets per loaded weapon. How big a battle are you planning?

Outside of combat reload time is pretty much a non-issue

Personally I think it does 4 round bursts just due to the number of rounds in it. It's really a good question what the designers intended (3 rounds? 4 rounds? From the same barrel, from different barrels?)

I like how that wiki list SR4 at the very bottom of it.

And we are not going to have this fight again... please! Three rounds, four rounds... GMs call. I use 4 round burst in my game, but I wouldn't have a problem with someone else using 3 round burst. It is a kewl weapon and the writers have chosen not to give much details.

I was just bringing up the fact that the discourse exists and that we don't know for sure what the designers intended.

... or if they even thought about it.

BTW I don't recall anything in the rules forbidding Long bursts? So if you are trying to kill tough stuff dead (Narrow bursts only) you can deplete your ammo fairly quickly. Especially if you decide the burst are distributed evenly between the barrels (I'm not entirely sold on that concept BTW). With 4 round/8 round bursts after 5 Longs, or 4 Longs and 2 Shorts, it's time to reload (more likely toss and draw another weapon). A lot of combats will finish before that but not always.

With such a short ammo supply I know that I'd have two spare ones to toss and draw.

Of course, my current weapon holds some 63 bulletsx2 and I've replaced the clip once in 9 months of gaming. Of course, I only short burst.

Not one by one, use a frame that hold the bullets together (kind like a stripper clip, just that it's tube shaped and that the bullets are stacked one behind the other instead of one beside the other) and push them all in the muzzle with a single action (maybe you can even use a frame with four stacks and a mechanism that pushes the bullets into the muzzles at the pressure of a botton, in this way you can reload all the barrels just by plugging the loader and pushing the botton).
However yes you have to shove them in (into the loader) one by one, just like when you reload a detachable magazine.

In the current Metal Storm system that is done at the factory level. That is unlikely to change. Keep in mind that each round needs a different precisely measured amount of propellant to keep the muzzle velocity close, and therefore the grouping tight across all the rounds. That is only going to be more exaggerated for a barrel as short as the Fuchi's.

Maybe the Sakura Fubuki (Fuchi was a megacorp) should have its own specialized ammunitions, that come in the form of solid stacks of ten bullets each.

Hmm, after rechecking it seems that they are now using a sort of pull-apart and reassemble stack. Their skirt design (the part of the slugs prevents the firing of one round from setting off the one behind it) seems to have advanced to the point of allowing this. Interesting. It still seems kinda crazy to bother with that unless you wanted to have widely divergent muzzle speeds.


P.S. Yes, I know Fuchi is the company. I don't speak Japanese so I couldn't recall the words for "Cherry Blossom Storm" and didn't want to bother scrolling to find the name.