Learning Shadowrun - Combat, Problems with understanding the rules Options

[hobgoblin]

This is explicitly disallowed by the rules.

page?

[Draco18s]

Now, a character may want to throw a grenade at an opponent for some reason. (Maybe he wants to bean him in the head with it?)

My current GM had a character that did that. Beaned people in the head with grenades (for damage) only to have the grenade then explode.

[hobgoblin]

applying about the same damage as a billiard ball i guess? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Larme]

page?

It's not disallowed. p.155 of SR4A lets you throw at a target, in which case there is an opposed test, or you can throw at a location, in which case it's just a success test to see how close to the location you get. I don't like the grenade rules at all though, grenades are the one weapon where you can potentially hit a bunch of people without giving any of them a defense test. I would always give people within the blast radius a defense test, with each hit putting them 1 meter farther away from the blast center. Otherwise, greandes are just ultimate instant killyness, and not very fun at all.

[Draco18s]

It's not disallowed. p.155 of SR4A lets you throw at a target, in which case there is an opposed test, or you can throw at a location, in which case it's just a success test to see how close to the location you get.

Uh...Isn't that what I said?

Besides, you should be throwing them at the floor for maximum effect (the floor can't dodge).

The floor can't dodge, there is a success test, yes, but the floor itself can not dodge. And given that I'm not throwing it at anyone they can dodge all they want and still take the blast damage.

[Zurai]

page?

Ahhh. Apologies, it's not in the rulebook, but it IS in the FAQ: http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#3

Isn't tossing a grenade on the ground by someone's feet (a Success Test) easier than trying to hit them directly with a grenade (an Opposed Test)? Does everyone caught in the blast get a chance to dodge/react?

If the intent is to catch a target in the blast radius, then it should be an Opposed Test, whether the grenade is actually thrown at the target or thrown a few meters away.

If the intent is to catch a group of targets in the blast radius, the attacker still picks one as the primary target. The Opposed Test is made between the attacker and that target only, with scatter determined accordingly. Any targets caught in the blast radius make Damage Resistance Tests as normal.

[Draco18s]

And what, pray tell, occurs when the attacker fails the opposed roll?

[Zurai]

The same thing that always happens when the attacker fails an opposed roll for throwing a grenade?

[Draco18s]

The same thing that always happens when the attacker fails an opposed roll for throwing a grenade?

....the grenade disappears in a puff of RAW?

[Larme]

I'm not positive on this, but I think that the opposed test is actually a contest of increasing vs. decreasing the scatter. If I tie the attacker who's 'nading me, then the scatter is neither increased nor decreased, it scatters its normal distance. If I beat him by 4 hits, then the scatter increases by 4, which represents me getting out of the way. If he beats me by 4, then the scatter decreases by 4. It's a bit vague because usually an opposed test is all or nothing. But I prefer my reading of it, since grenades disappearing is a bit stupid, even for Shadowrun's unrealistic combat system.

[Zurai]

No, it scatters. Just like grenades always do. Yeah, that means grenades generally scatter farther (since an opposed test is almost always going to net fewer hits than a simple success test) if your intent is to catch a person in the blast radius -- as mentioned earlier in this thread, sometimes the rules just don't make logical sense.

Not saying I approve of the way grenades work. And I'm not terribly familiar with the grenade rules, anyhow, never having used any. I just remembered that one FAQ passage (and incorrectly remembered it as being in the actual rulebook).

[Zurai]

I'm not positive on this, but I think that the opposed test is actually a contest of increasing vs. decreasing the scatter.

Correct. Or, at least, that's how I read the rules as well.

[kzt]

Opps. Well, we always used airburst grenades anyhow. A pet peeve of mine is that grenades aren't dangerous enough to the person using them in SR. This may just be a personal bias due to unfortunate incident involving a hand grenade simulator and a tree branch, but I still feel that way.

Anyhow, the problem with the mechanics of combat is that there are lots of little things that make you go "that's insane", but when you start tweaking them you tend to create as many issues as you solve. It's easier to just deal with them. You just accept that you can reliably shoot people 250 meters away with an AK while running, and only use real machine guns when mounted on drones - as drones don't take recoil mods.

[hobgoblin]

greandes are just ultimate instant killyness, and not very fun at all.

anyone subject to a artillery bombardment would probably agree with you.

in the end it comes down to collateral damage. if the object the PC's are after is within the blast radius, can they really risk it?

and the same with the other side, what, beyond the PC's gets blasted to bits by the explosion?

remember, even walls can be blasted out by a grenade, and anyone on the other side can get a face full of hurt...

as in, can the corp sec goons really justify deploying that kind of fire power on corp grounds?

i would say that if the answer is yes, the PC's should be heading for the nearest exit, asap!

[hobgoblin]

Opps. Well, we always used airburst grenades anyhow. A pet peeve of mine is that grenades aren't dangerous enough to the person using them in SR. This may just be a personal bias due to unfortunate incident involving a hand grenade simulator and a tree branch, but I still feel that way.

sounds like a 4 on the direction and a number of meters equal to distance tossed in the first place...

[Cardul]

Too bad someone throwing a normal grenade cannot have it, by RAW, hit back at them by the troll wielding the louisville slugger. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[hobgoblin]

heh, held action and a bat, and i think i would allow it, rules or no rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

just resolve like one would if someone tried to pick it up and throwing it back before it explodes, with maybe a strength bonus or something...

ok, now im envisioning a adept with a mitt catching and throwing them back, with a added punch from the missile mastery power (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Draco18s]

I'm not positive on this, but I think that the opposed test is actually a contest of increasing vs. decreasing the scatter.

That's what I figured, and for the most part a guy throwing a grenade is going to have more dice than the dodger, so while fewer net hits means less accuracy, most grenades end up where you want them: in the room.

I will however point out that due to RAW stating that there must be a (primary) target, you can't throw nades into an empty room.

Unless I can make that chair my primary target.

[hobgoblin]

heh, the faq only states that if you intend to catch one or more people in the blast radius, you have to make it a opposed test vs one of them.

if your just lobbing the grenade around for shits and giggles, its still a success test.

the faq seems to be a poor way of forcing people to use the opposed test.

[hobgoblin]

just had a spark of creativity.

one way to read the opposed test is a feint test on part of the target.

that is, the target sees the throw coming, and tries to make the thrower throw the grenade in the wrong direction, increasing the effective scatter (tho that do not fully explain a scatter towards the thrower, but i guess murphy can).

[Heath Robinson]

Combat is so complex in real life, and the rules abstract enough, that your "skill" doesn't necessarily mean any actual in-universe understanding or ability. It just means "succeeds at this more often than not". Your Thrown Weapons skill can mean "I'm really accurate" or "Murphy is on my side". Which it is has absolutely no effect on the game.

[The Mack]

1) We have been trying to figure out how the Full-Auto and Burst-Modes work... but we don't get it. So... let's say that I do a Complex action to burst a guy with an Assault Rifle... Ares Alpha... has like (2) to recoil, and 6p dmg. Now we are talking 10 bullets flying at my opponent and I am getting -9 dice pool modifier.

Others have already answered your question quite thoroughly, so I thought I would point you in the direction of a different form of assistance.

An Ares Alpha comes standard with Recoil Comp (RC) 2. It also has a built in smartgun for 2 extra dice.

Just sticking with the core book, for 450 nuyen you can get your RC to 6 by adding a Gas Vent 3 system and a shock pad.

That should help significantly.

[Draco18s]

if your just lobbing the grenade around for shits and giggles, its still a success test.

I'm going to lob more grenades for shits and giggles during combat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

"I don't like that table. I throw a grenade at it."

[Firefly]

2) Opposed Grenade Throws... so it's kinda weird that the defender gets an opposed Grenade roll... so depending on his "chi" or whatever u may call it... the grenade lands in a different spot? I don't get it...
/Zore

Your opponent is getting a chance to dodge out of the way, remember, unless it's an airburst grenade it doesn't detonate until the beginning of your next action. The scatter roll is just what it says, grenades roll when they hit the ground. If you want an example, stand outside a room and throw a baseball in (yes, the weight is VERY different, but the shape is very similar).
Just because I've tossed grenades at an area, doesn't mean the grenade won't bounce when it hits a hard surface or slide off in a random direction because of a terrain feature I can't tell is there (in reality, you throw a hand grenade roughly twenty meters on open ground to avoid shrapnel).

[Draco18s]

Just because I've tossed grenades at an area, doesn't mean the grenade won't bounce when it hits a hard surface or slide off in a random direction because of a terrain feature I can't tell is there (in reality, you throw a hand grenade roughly twenty meters on open ground to avoid shrapnel).

Get two friends. Put one of them in a chair, he's not allowed to move.

Tell them to avoid your baseball.

Toss it at the feet of the first guy (not in a chair). Measure distance away from target.

Toss it at the feet of the second guy (in the chair). Measure distance away from target.

I'll guarantee you that the distance away was the same in both cases, give or take a small amount due to physics. If you end up with 3 or more meters of difference after performing this test, then I'll listen to your argument.

That is:

In no way did the guy who was jumping around and making a Dodge check influence where the baseball landed.