Cybermancy, Still the scariest drek ever, or the logical end for any cyber-sam? Options

[InfinityzeN]

Well, if it is a CZ researcher, get a Logic of 15(18) + massive bonus dice, an Intuition of 12 + massive bonus dice, and a Willpower of 12 (13 for a Dwarf). Use them to make the breakthroughs, then have to normal guys work the details.

[Uli]

What can a CZ accomplish that a large team of high-level runners can't do?

Nothing in particular, I think.

[Nath]

What can a CZ accomplish that a large team of high-level runners can't do?

Fit into a single cardbox.

[Heath Robinson]

Fit into a single cardbox.

SNAKE? SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKEEEE?!

[Tanegar]

SNAKE? SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKEEEE?!

Congratulations, sir! You have won the Internet!

[sds]

hmm . . anybody got the really exact wording on cyborgs and essence?
cyber down to 0,01 essence, get cyborg treatment done, get up to . . what? 0,2 essence? O.o

Slightly off-topic, but no. Your essence is still 0.01, you only have an essence hole that is 0.19 big. Remember that essence doesn't come back - only leaves the hole. Unless you start some of the fancy treatments in Augmentation.

[Stahlseele]

Ah, yes, okay . .
still a bit cheesy neh? ^^

[crash2029]

Can anyone tell me where the tale of Hatchetman is located? I have seen references to it but no specific book.

[Falanin]

Cybertechnology, from SR2 days

[BookWyrm]

Cybermancy is one of those scary-yet-fascinating reads. Like that messy vehicular accedent that you know will make you sick to your stomach if you look, but you can't help looking.

[DoomFrog]

SR4 presents a different argument, saying (simply) that you only suffer essence loss your body operates differently than mother nature intended (in a fundamental way.) A guy who looses his arm still has the rest of his body working perfectly fine, and good ol' mother nature allows for us to survive if our arm is lopped off (assuming we can stave off death from blood loss.) On the other hand, cellular damage from a vampire attack, biochemical changes from substance abuse, or wiring your neurons to bits of metal screw the system up pretty bad. This all leads to essence loss. At least, that was always my understanding.

The conversation has kind of strayed from the topic, but I wanted to offer my 2 cents.

I always had the impression that in SR, essence isn't so much the integrity of your body/spirit. But the purity. Especially with the introduction of BioWare which isn't artificial (meaning mechanical parts), but vat grown human muscle, tendons, or nerve tissue. Foreign objects like those get in the way of your energy/chi/spirit and those make you less human. That is why delta-grade implants don't cost as much essence, because they get in the way less.

Another way I like to think about it is the whole "Phantom Limb" phenomenon. When the human body loses a limb or eyes or what not, the brain rewires the sections of the brain that use to control the lost limb so that the brain cells aren't just taking up space. Sometimes the signals are still interpreted as the missing limb. In the same way, if you get implants that you control with your mind, the brain has to rewire to allow for this control, so you lose just a little control of everything else. If you have too much 'ware your brain starts to loss the power to control magic, and because of the lost control there is a limit to what the brain can handle before it can't keep the body alive...... and thats where cyberzombies start coming in.

[crash2029]

Cybertechnology, from SR2 days

Thank you.

[crash2029]

The conversation has kind of strayed from the topic, but I wanted to offer my 2 cents.

I always had the impression that in SR, essence isn't so much the integrity of your body/spirit. But the purity. Especially with the introduction of BioWare which isn't artificial (meaning mechanical parts), but vat grown human muscle, tendons, or nerve tissue. Foreign objects like those get in the way of your energy/chi/spirit and those make you less human. That is why delta-grade implants don't cost as much essence, because they get in the way less.

Another way I like to think about it is the whole "Phantom Limb" phenomenon. When the human body loses a limb or eyes or what not, the brain rewires the sections of the brain that use to control the lost limb so that the brain cells aren't just taking up space. Sometimes the signals are still interpreted as the missing limb. In the same way, if you get implants that you control with your mind, the brain has to rewire to allow for this control, so you lose just a little control of everything else. If you have too much 'ware your brain starts to loss the power to control magic, and because of the lost control there is a limit to what the brain can handle before it can't keep the body alive...... and thats where cyberzombies start coming in.

Damn. That is one of the best hypotheses concerning essence loss, augmentation, and cybermancy I have ever read. Definite kudos to you.

[Mordinvan]

Damn. That is one of the best hypotheses concerning essence loss, augmentation, and cybermancy I have ever read. Definite kudos to you.

I like it too, but it doesn't explain why titanium bone lacing which is utterly invisible to the nervous system would cause essence loss.

[GreyBrother]

Sure that it is invisible? I always thought that our bones do interact with the nervous system and be it just to "report damage".

[Stahlseele]

The bones themselves don't do squat to interact with the rest of your body.
they just carry the load. Same as with your teeth, they don't interact with you either.
The Bone marrow/Nerves in your teeth? now that's another story all together . .
The Bone Marrow does produce new blood cells, which is kinda vital to your wellbeing.

[crazyconscript]

Just on the topic of whether cyberzombies are "the scariest drek ever":
They are when your runners arent expecting one and they are being created by toxic mages in a nuclear power station (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Mordinvan]

Sure that it is invisible? I always thought that our bones do interact with the nervous system and be it just to "report damage".

Too bad the lacing is at a molecular level, and if done correctly with a calcium phosphate coating would just be treated as more bone by the rest of your bones.

[the_real_elwood]

It doesn't need to explain. Titanium bone lacing provides a significant advantage, and you need the essence loss to offset that advantage to keep game balance.

And I'm pretty sure no matter what foreign objects you stick in your body, or what calcium phosphate coating you put on them, your body is still going to "know" it's there.

[darthmord]

Of course it will. Your body also uses the skeletal structure to run nerves ALONG. Point in case, look at your elbows and wrists. Your nerves run in channels (typically referred to as 'tunnels') through those joints. They are called Carpal Tunnels and Cubital Tunnels, hence the symdromes' names.

Applying any sort of material reinforcement to the bones is likely to interfere with the natural layout of those nerves, even if it is to just relocate the nerve to another location (which I've had an Ulnar Nerve Transposition performed to mitigate the effects of Cubital Tunnel Syndrome).

Hence the Essence Loss from Bone Lacing does make sense. The amount of Essence Loss... that can be debated IMO.

[Stahlseele]

No it really can't.
Essence is purely balancing.

[DoomFrog]

Yeah, my explanation isn't perfect. No explanation is going to be perfect.

My explanation doesn't cover why a cyberlimb would have an essence cost, since it replaces the whole limb there wouldn't be any additional strain on the nerves system. Though you could say that the nerves being cut off and having to be rewired to the cyberlimb is the cost of essence. But bonelacing and some of the other implants but I still like my explanation.

[the_real_elwood]

Aren't there optional rules that reduce the essence cost of some things like bone lacing depending on how many (if any) cyberlimbs a character has? To account for the fact that part of the body is already replaced, and the bone lacing doesn't need to be implemented there? Maybe it was just some houserules I saw somewhere, but it seemed like a pretty decent idea to me.

[Stahlseele]

In SR3 there were such rules, in SR4 none.

[HappyDaze]

The bones themselves don't do squat to interact with the rest of your body.

Really? So what happens if you're blood calcium level is off? The bones don't interact?