Drawbacks of not getting SR4A, Voting No with your wallet... Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I for one appreciate that effort that has gone in to the minor revision that is SR4A

[Bull]

This is what the thread is about: if there's any drawbacks to not getting SR4.5 As for trolling, usually it's the one accusing people of trolling that's the guilty party.

We've said it before, and we'll say it again... We consider it trolling if you're posting in a thread for no other reason than to provoke a response, or to be an ass (also called Thread Crapping). So knock it off.

The Dumpshock ToS forbids us from discussing piracy in a positive manner. That being said, you do realize there were pirate copies of SR4.5 out within *hours* of the release?

Yup. There's also been a copy of the screener for the new Wolverine movie floating around. And some jackass got fired for mentioing that he downloaded and reviewed it cause it was easier to go and see the press review screening. Doesn't make it right, doesn't mean it should be condoned, and doesn't mean it should be encouraged.

Downloading an illegal PDF of a game product, for any reason, from any source, does nothing but hurt the game companies. And talking about it here on Dumpshock is a quick way to get in trouble.

Bull

[SpasticTeapot]

The Dumpshock ToS forbids us from discussing piracy in a positive manner. That being said, you do realize there were pirate copies of SR4.5 out within *hours* of the release?

A PDF was sent out with the release. I'm not sure if they're using any DRM, but I can assure you that most of the technology that makes it work becomes useless as soon as it's on a PC that completely ignores it.

I'm getting conflicting information: Are we getting all of the rule changes as Errata or not? If so, ducky - I'll download it iand that's that. If not, the heck with the lot of you - one of the main reasons I use Linux is because I don't like paying $200 every few years for a severely flawed OS before paying $200 more to fix it just so that I can have the privelidge of installing yet more overpriced software, and I don't want more of the same from my weekly table gaming.

Just a hypothetical, here, but when you make buying an E-book reader cheaper than buying a replacement set of books, those PDFs start too look really good indeed.

I for one appreciate that effort that has gone in to the minor revision that is SR4A

I appreciate the new Star Trek movie. I do not, on the other hand, appreciate it to the tune of $40, which is what it costs at a local red-carpet opening night first showing.

[raggedhalo]

Are we getting all of the rule changes as Errata or not?

We already have.

[Synner]

Please note that the Changes Reference Document focuses on the major changes and additions to the game mechanics. Besides incorporating all the SR4 errata that had gone before, and 10+ pages of new minor errata detected by Catalyst proofreaders (and in the final print version fan-generated errata too).

SR4A includes numerous minor tweaks such as sections and rules that were rewritten for clarity (such as the Matrix rules) or added to the original (such as material contextualizing technomancers in the Sixth World society.) Even when we have not made a change to a rule we've done our best to clarify the intent behind the original rules (e.g. the clarifications on Edge burning, PC escape from death, and Indirect spell targeting). There are chapters where the tweaks are minor, and there are chapters that have substantial changes (e.g. The Wireless World) or additional content (e.g. The Awakened World and )Life on the Edge. In other chapters, a simple reorganization and addition of guidelines and advice has significantl'y enhanced usefulness (e.g. Creating a Shadowrunner).

I believe DFSer Larsine did quite a complete comparison of changes here.

[Larme]

So, what the topic comes down to is this: If you don't buy SR4A, you won't have the index, or the improved formatting, or the latest errata included in your core book. But you will still have the latest version of the rules, because they've been released as errata. The drawbacks to not getting it are pretty much convenience related. I went ahead and sprang for it myself in .pdf format, in large part because the .pdf is nicely discounted, and the reformatting/adding in of errata really does make a big difference in how easy it is to make characters and play. As for voting 'no,' however, the only thing to vote against at this point is giving Catalyst more money for a new product, as they have fixed the erratas that people really had a problem with. If you're pissed at how RPG companies constantly print new books and new editions of the books though, you might want to invest in a video game console. All RPG companies do that, it's part of their business model, and objecting to SR4A from a price perspective is pretty much objecting to the entire PnP gaming industry.

[SpasticTeapot]

So, what the topic comes down to is this: If you don't buy SR4A, you won't have the index, or the improved formatting, or the latest errata included in your core book. But you will still have the latest version of the rules, because they've been released as errata.

I've heard of things like modified costs for adept powers that make it possible to play one without a boatload of 'ware, and modifications to how spellcasters work. Unless I'm missing something obvious, these are not in the current errata.

While publishing new editions of the rules is all well and good (and necessary to keep people employed), these are just tiny changes to the old rules and layout that should have been there from the beginning. A revised and updated player's handbook with some optional new content is all well and good - anyone else here played 2E AD&D? - but reducing compatibility to the point where you can't use the old BBB means that groups will either have to stick with their out-of-print books or spend a collective few hundred bucks on new ones - and god forbid you have a new player with the wrong rules.

Of course, you could do a major re-write, changing everything from the build system to spellcasting. They would not need to be dramatic changes - AD&D 2.0 was not much different from AD&D 1.0, merely a little more polished and a little more streamlined. For this, I'd buy another BBB no questions asked.

Of course, I might just buy one anyway: the rubbish binding on my SR4 PHB has failed completely, surprising since it's hardly been used. I've got first edition AD&D guides in better shape.

[Matsci]

I've heard of things like modified costs for adept powers that make it possible to play one without a boatload of 'ware, and modifications to how spellcasters work. Unless I'm missing something obvious, these are not in the current errata.

The Adept Power Improved Ability now supports Vehicle Skills.
• The Adept Power Kinesics is now capped at Level 3.
• The Adept Power Improved Reflexes costs have been revised as
follows:
Level 1: 1.5 Power Points
Level 2: 2.5 Power Points
Level 3: 4 Power Points
• The Adept Power Improved Physical Attribute costs have been
revised as follows:
.75 Power Points per level
1.5 Power Points per level over Natural Maximum
• Direct combat spells have a new optional mechanic: for each Net
Hit applied to damage, the Drain Value increases by +1. For Area
of Effect spells, use only the highest Net Hits applied to damage.

Direct combat spells have a new optional mechanic: for each Net
Hit applied to damage, the Drain Value increases by +1. For Area
of Eff ect spells, use only the highest Net Hits applied to damage.

[The Jake]

Nah, all the Nerdrage left there. I think it came here.

You're not far off the mark I suspect.

Speaking from my own experience, the recent release of D&D 4E not so long after 3.5 left a seriously bad taste in the mouths of my entire gaming group. When we read the 4E rules, we realised D&D had been dumbed down until it could be only loosely described as a table top version of WOW. This is what prompted me to blow the dust off my Shadowrun collection and check out 4E. I liked what I saw and decided to buy them up.

SR4A has come less than six months after I bought the BBB. And while we knew there would be an anniversary edition, I feel pretty bloody jibbed to have a new rules rewrite. So no, I won't be buying it and given that this book as come within less than a month of most of my other gaming buddies buying their rulebook, I feel confident in saying they won't either. Whats more, there was no forewarning that a new rules re-write was coming. Errata'd/updated to reflect the rules corrections - fine. But flatly changing the core mechanics on everyone is a definite no-no without clear warning to your player base IMHO. To be fair, it has been four years since the original rules for SR4 were released, so even from a commercial sense, I could almost support the release of a new edition. But IMHO, there's no excuse for not warning your players.

Bottom line, this is exactly the kind of move I'd expect from WOTC, not Catalyst. However, I expect it is an isolated incident.

And to whoever said we should tell the makers of the game and not just whinge, we are - right here, on their official forums.

- J.

[Bull]

Well, i wwill say that the Anniversary Edition of SR4 was announced at Gen Con last year as part of the anniversary celebration this year. I don't think rules changes were really mentioned, but I do believe that it was mentioned that the book would be reorganized and cleaned up a bit. Though, to be fair, I do sometimes lose track of what I hear officially and unofficially.

Anyways, don't sweat the new edition if you have just recently bought an SR4 book, or you can't afford it right now. It's nice, it's pretty, and it's useful, but as has been said, all the changes are in the new erratta. Grab and use them as needed. And, down the road, if you decide you want or need a new copy of the book, or end up with the extra cash sitting around, pick it up then and enjoy it!

Bull

[toturi]

And to whoever said we should tell the makers of the game and not just whinge, we are - right here, on their official forums.

- J.

Are you sure Dumpshock is "their" official forum?

[Draco18s]

Are you sure Dumpshock is "their" official forum?

Solid Contacts
Dumpshock Shadowrun Forums and Mailing Lists www.dumpshock.com

That's the only forum I see on that page. And right near the top.

[Dwight]

That's the only forum I see on that page. And right near the top.

Yes, and it and the other entries in the Solid Contacts category don't have the "Official" label like the entries in the category about it does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's always been a very close but unofficial relationship between whomever was Shadowrun's publishing company and Dumpshock. But there simply isn't a real official Shadowrun BB. I'm not sure there ever has been? I don't think so.

[The Jake]

Yes, and it and the other entries in the Solid Contacts category don't have the "Official" label like the entries in the category about it does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's always been a very close but unofficial relationship between whomever was Shadowrun's publishing company and Dumpshock. But there simply isn't a real official Shadowrun BB. I'm not sure there ever has been? I don't think so.

When it is referred to and linked to the News section, I think its officially "official".

- J.

[Dwight]

When it is referred to and linked to the News section, I think its officially "official".

- J.

Where's the link in the News section? I don't see it off hand.

P.S. Drivethru is linked in the news section. They aren't a Catalyst site.


EDIT: Or do you mean that Links page? The CIA is the official intelligence agency of Shadowrun? Who knew? Oh wait:

All links are to external sites and open in a new browser window; please be aware that while we think these links are cool, some of them contain unofficial Shadowrun material. Not all material will be suitable for everyones game, and we take no responsibility for anything you may find via any of these links.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Dumpshock only contains official material in designated posts by Catalyst employees (and sometimes freelancers).

[knasser]

But flatly changing the core mechanics on everyone is a definite no-no without clear warning to your player base IMHO.

What "core mechanics" are you referring to? That the cost of raising Attributes has gone up and the recommended amount of karma has been raised? It's not that dramatic. Those and a clarification on Edge usage are all that I can think of that are "changing the core mechanics on everyone"

[Bull]

When it is referred to and linked to the News section, I think its officially "official".

- J.

Nope. While we are the largest Shadowrun board around, and many of the freelancers and devs frequent these boards, we are not officially connected to CGL. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We are as close as you currently get at the moment though, but that's a whole different thing.

[Glyph]

What "core mechanics" are you referring to? That the cost of raising Attributes has gone up and the recommended amount of karma has been raised? It's not that dramatic. Those and a clarification on Edge usage are all that I can think of that are "changing the core mechanics on everyone"

The change to how combat spells work (now an optional rule, thankfully) was a huge change. As was the change in Object Resistance, which they have also revised somewhat now. Those rules changes altered what magicians could do in mid-stream, a huge change. Even the change in Karma costs, while offset by the increased Karma awards now, makes one of the character generation methods in Runner's Companion unusable until we get an errata for it (hopefully soon). The revision to the costs of a few adept powers, while not provoking outcries like the previous changes, is still a significant change. And the new restrictions on upgrading commlinks and other electronics made a lot of people's gear suddenly illegal. Thankfully, the addition of the modular components modification should make it a lot easier for people to get their gear rules-compliant again.

I have heard a lot of accusations of "whining" on the part of the people who picked apart these new rules, but for the most part, while they were understandably upset at having these rules changes suddenly sprung on them, the criticism was still constructive, explaining why they didn't think the new rules were a good idea. To their credit, Catalyst listened and tweaked the rules changes to where they are a lot less disruptive to existing campaigns.

[Bull]

I have heard a lot of accusations of "whining" on the part of the people who picked apart these new rules, but for the most part, while they were understandably upset at having these rules changes suddenly sprung on them, the criticism was still constructive, explaining why they didn't think the new rules were a good idea. To their credit, Catalyst listened and tweaked the rules changes to where they are a lot less disruptive to existing campaigns.

To be fair, there was a lot of whining. Constructive Criticism involves calm, ration explanations. Posted once or twice. Whining involves screaming over and over and over about how CGL just ruined the game because theyr'e all hacks.

Whining also involves screaming over and over and over about the people who are upset by the new changes.

It happened on both sides. It was annoying. Hopefully we're past it, and everyone should now drop it and move along. The new rules are set in stone now, so you either accept them and wait for additional errata to fix things like the Karmagen system, or you house rule it to use the old rules. In either case, no reason to keep hashing out old arguments pointlessly.

(Yes, I know, this is the Internet. Pointless arguments seem to be the entire reason some folks get online. Doesn't mean I can't do my best to fight it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

Bull

[Draco18s]

To be fair, there was a lot of whining. Constructive Criticism involves calm, ration explanations. Posted once or twice. Whining involves screaming over and over and over about how CGL just ruined the game because theyr'e all hacks.

I do believe I fell into the former here, Bull. I may have whined at some points (increased attribute cost, prior to increased Karma awards), but for the most part I was asking for explanation and giving my arguments as to why I did not agree with the rule changes as made. And I still don't agree with Synner's rationalization behind using OR for illusions.

[Larme]

I've heard of things like modified costs for adept powers that make it possible to play one without a boatload of 'ware, and modifications to how spellcasters work. Unless I'm missing something obvious, these are not in the current errata.

And herein is demonstrated the danger of relying on rumor and hearsay. Neither of those rumors were true, at least not as you understood them. The changes really, truly are contained in the SR4A changes document, and there's no need to buy the new book if you want to use them.

This is why the people who are complaining about having to buy a new book are sort of setting my teeth on edge. You (now I'm talking to 'you' in the general sense, not to SpasticTeapot specifically) are not forced to buy the new book in any way. You can download all the changes for free. The new book is better organized, it's easier to deal with the changes if you have them right in your book instead of in a separate document, but if you actually want to use the new rules, you don't have to pay a dime. This is nothing like D&D 3.5 or 4E, which people are freely comparing it to. In both of those cases, the only way to hold a copy of the most updated rules in your hand was to buy them. This is a free rules update accompanied by a new printing of the core book. I understand that people object, as a general matter, to having to buy new RPG books to keep up to date. But this is not a case where you have to do so. Everyone who objects on that basis is using transferrence -- transferring their angst against RPGs as a whole onto Catalyst, who has not actually done anything to cost them more money. The changes are free for you to use or not use as you please. Free is not the same as costing you money, but people are drawing this false equivalency over and over.

[Heath Robinson]

Larme,
You've laid out my thoughts on the subject better than I could hoped to have done so.

People, the only reasons to buy SR4A are to appreciate the (generally quite nice) new art, to appreciate the layout updates, to make use of the master indices, to appreciate the latest attempts at making the Matrix rules easy to understand, if you want to have the latest version of the system in a nice package without extraneous notes, or if it's your first ever copy of the base book.

You are not mandated to purchase the anniversary edition in any way, and the analogy with D&D 3.5 is completely baseless. So would you please drop it; grandstanding when you have no ground to stand upon merely belittles your intelligence.

[darthmord]

The big reason I picked up SR4A (Collector's, Standard, & PDF) was my SR4 copy is a First Run copy (hard cover). I like to have collector's edition books. It's a weakness of mine. (Yes Catalyst, this means I would buy Collector's Editions of your other books if they were available.)

Yep, you read that right. It's a FanPro book. V 1.0. I figured it was time to update.

The Jake, I wouldn't sweat it much as you noted, it's been a while since SR4 came out. You just happened to come in toward the end of the SR4 hardcover as it was transitioning to SR4A.

[SpasticTeapot]

You (now I'm talking to 'you' in the general sense, not to SpasticTeapot specifically) are not forced to buy the new book in any way. You can download all the changes for free.

One small suggestion: Put links to the rules updates everywhere. In huge, flashing letters. What I had found in the "errata" section was the old errata, which was one of the main reasons I was so cheesed - I was looking at the old stuff.

[Draco18s]

One small suggestion: Put links to the rules updates everywhere. In huge, flashing letters. What I had found in the "errata" section was the old errata, which was one of the main reasons I was so cheesed - I was looking at the old stuff.

You mean like the sticky thread in this forum?
SR4A Changes Document Online