Assuming one wants to show deep displeasure with recent horrible rule changes which according to this forum have been implemented in the Anniversary Edition, such as steep rise of Attribute costs, nerfing of Direct Combat Spells, outrageous OR tables, in the most effective way (by refusing to buy the book and willfully ignoring its existance), does one stand to lose anything else truly useful, by not having such hypothetical book ? Ignore references to gorgeous art. This poster finds it a trivial issue in judging the long-term value of a RPG book. Also assume all SR4 rule supplements are already owned.

Thanks for your answers.

Honestly? As long as you don't play an official game, which will use the new rules-there is absolutely nothing wrong with using the older editions.

I mean think about it-people still play and have fun with SR3 and even SR2, or 1, even now. Nothing wrong with that at all. I'm not a fan of the new rule changes, so I won't be using them. My buddies whom I play with aren't keen on them, either. We'll just go along playing with SR4, and no Thor shots will be hitting our house(I think. )

IMO, it's no different than preferring to play an older edition.

There's apparently some really nice lookup tables in the back.

All the new rules should come out as errata, so there's no need to buy SR4.5.

You didn't understand. Under the assumption that the potential purchaser does not like the "errata" or new rules what are they going to miss out on?

Oops. Well, the answer is still "nothing". There are people still playing SR2 games that I know of, so not switching to 4.5 isn't going to get the gaming police kicking down your door.

The awesome fiction, the extensive tweaks in the matrix chapter, the, in many cases, clearer worded stuff, the increased Karma amounts(we have already been told that the table in the pd4 was in error, and that you are supposed to be getting 9-10 Karma per run, so, while raising an attribute 6 under the old rules would take 18, or, assuming the average of 5 Karma per run, 4 runs to raise, under the new, raising that said attribute would take 30 Karma, or, 3 Runs, assuming high end of average... so it does not change the rate of attribute increase, but speeds up skill increase)

And, honestly, if you do not like the OR or the +1 Drain per net success that you voluntarily choose to spend on increasing direct combat spell damage? Just change them!

Seriously...the book, over all, is a large improvement.

It is also the standard by which all future books will be made under. Oh, and, you know: voting with your wallet is really not that good, as it means that CGL will lose money. Do you want WotC to buy SR from Topps? Someone who will look at it as only a business product, and as soon as they stop raking in enough to meet their calculated profit margins, drop it entirely, but hold onto the IP so no-one else can use it? Personally, I like what CGL has done with Shadowrun, and I would like them to keep it...

However, we shouldn't have to shell out money for a product we don't want just to keep a company afloat.

If you don't like/want the SR4A book, for whatever reasons you may have, you shouldn't buy it. It's really that simple. You certainly shouldn't buy a book just because you're worried about the future of the product. The numbers of sales that CGL sees of the SR4A book will probably influence future books, so "voting with your wallet" is effective. But I think voting with your wallet is more effective if it is paired with feedback to CGL, either about why you love the book or why you won't be buying it.

Remember that all future material will be using SR4A as the mechanics, so for example adepts will have more powers than they'd be allowed under SR4.

Karma is rules, and he said he doesn't care for the rules. I have a feeling that he considers the fiction to be in the same category as the artwork. I know I personally haven't read any of the fiction in SR4.0 since I got the book, so it can safely be considered extraneous.


If you're that worried about it, buy two copies to make up for the one the OP won't buy. Buy extras, for all the pdfs that will undoubtedly be pirated. CGL is going to lose a few sales on SR4.5 anyway, so fretting that the sky is falling won't help matters.

You are completely right about the fiction. And even if the amount of Karma per run is increased, I still consider a really bad move to increase the amount of Karma that is necessary to increase any single Attribute.



I am unaware of the rule change you are referencing, so please explain.



Even more forceful feedback than this thread ??? I tought CGL folks are going to notice it. If not, tell me who I have to e-mail and I shall.

Anyway, I restate my position just in case they do: because I think the new Drain rule for direct combat spells, the Karma cost increase for Attributes, and the new OR table are an helluva load of crap that screw my preferred character type, mages and mystical adepts, I hate them so much that I'm not going to buy SR4A to show my displeasure.

I don't know if this thread will be read by CGL devs or not. I know the devs do visit Dumpshock, but how often and what they read are anyone's guess. But there should be a feedback e-mail address on the official Shadowrun website.

Ok. Then don't. No one forces you to buy anything. I still fail to see the point of the thread in the first place.
Just another "SR4A sucks!"-cry?
Like we haven't had enough of those...

(For the record, while I dislike quite some rules changes myself, especially the wierd "fix" to direct damage spells, I still think SR4A is on the whole superior to the original version)

The cost of several adept powers has been reduced.

Frankly, if you don't know what the whole package of rule changes are (for example, the change to sensors is both welcome and good) then I think dclaring that you hate the entire SR4A package and want nothing to do with is a bit premature.

Good point, but the rules changes that I've already aware of, are so obnoxious IMO that several incredibly beneficial new/changed crunchy bits or setting items should be necessary to compensate. Especially because if the negative struff screws what I love most in SR, namely magic.

There are a number of very cool and positive changes, leaving aside the controversial ones*, that fix a number of issues. Use this thread to get an idea of them. And as ever, you can always house rule out the bits you don't like.


*: I personally like the changes you dislike, but that's fine.

If you had trouble understanding the Matrix rules, then you'll be missing out on a much need rewrite of the Wireless World chapter in SR4A. Additionally, I'm assuming all future SR products whenever referencing the SR Core Rulebook will be using the page numbers from SR4A.

I know you mentioned that you find it superfluous, but layout and artwork really does make a difference. In a word, this book is simply gorgeous. I never realized how much was missing with the book not being in full colour. Strange as it may sound, I think the artwork and layout in a rule book really does affect how people view the game. The art in this book has really brought back the "feel" of Shadowrun that I thought had been somewhat lost the last little while.

I encourage you to wait until the book arrives at your FLGS just so you can flip through it and take a look. I have always changed things in the rules I didn't like or agree with, and I'm going to be changing some of things that are in SR4A so that's no different to me. But overall, I know that SR4A will be something that will be displayed proudly on my bookshelf for years to come, even after it becomes completely obsolete.

It's a shame then that they have yet to hire someone that actually knows what they are doing when it comes to laying out text. In just the cursory examination I've given it so far, there are misplaced section headers, orphan paragraph sections and other nonsense that shouldn't be there, and in some cases don't need to be there as the space is available (or would be, if the layout was done correctly) to eliminate these problems.

As far as the artwork...mhe, most of it's pretty good,but there are some stinkers in there. Too each their own on that score. None of it is good enough to distract me from the text layout issues though, since the the text is the important part.

What is SR4A going to provide that Wired and the "live off the grid" chapter of RC don't already provide ?



Nowhere reason enough for me to use my money to encourage rules changes I despise. I can always use Indexes and I generally have a decent grasp of where important stuff is in a RPG rulebook.



I made myself a strict rule that I never buy a novel, a DVD, a videogame, or an RPG manual because of art alone, either cover or interior or fluffy DVD extras. The net is chock-full of free and cool art. Quality of the text or movie of game is what matters alone. Saves me a lot of money and never had to regret my choice.

A better treatment of the core Matrix rules. However, like I said, if you didn't have any problems understanding them before then no problem. The chapter is better organized and much clearer now, however.

PS I assume you meant "Unwired."

I use printed-out pdfs exclusively these days. Due to cost issues, I always get them printed in B&W. So the artwork in SR4.5, while nice, is somewhat lost on me.

The drain rule is pretty sucky, but direct combat spells are 99% of the time way more effective then indirect ones and that should be represented somehow, eg by raising their drain.

Karma cost increase isn't really an issue since karma gain has been increased dramatically which allows you to initiate faster, learn spells quicker and bind more spirits. The point where your character development is slowed by the increased cost lies somewhere in the 3 digit magic range.

Sensor OR according to what i have read is supposed to be 4 generally, 6 being the rare exception. RAW differ from RAI apparently.

The drain rule is seriously ridiculous.

You should not be punished for success, nor should you be punished for not wanting to use the indirect combat spells which should have been designed better originally, or at the least improved in SR4A.




Who cares. More shoehorning, trying to force people to use spells they don't want to use because they are mechanically poor.

Why suck all that drain to use an indirect combat spell when you can use a grenade?

Or hell, just summon a Spirit with "Elemental Attack" and choose your drainless, indirect combat spell of choice on your newly summoned turret.

Oh, certainly. I never said I didn't like the entirety of the SR4A rules. I was merely clarifying what the OP was asking.

However, I/my group won't be buying the book in any case. We're relatively happy with the rules as they are, though there are some things we go "huh?" at, but none of that was addressed with SR4A (with possible exception of the matrix rules, which I haven't seen, so I can't make any judgments). When things don't work for us, we ad hoc something better. Chunky Salsa was getting too deadly for the NPCs, so it was removed from our game. Mages have never been Gods of Combat Destruction (or God of Hide and Sneak), so we don't need a "fix" to OR and Direct Combat spells (in fact, one of our last mages used Acid Ball and Toxic Wave because he had a character concept and was rather effective with them (maybe "overly effective," the Acid Ball once took out 5 targets....and 60 bystanders and hurt one PC).

That was also the session we blew up a fireworks factory and got all the blame pinned on one PC (the player himself was new, but was having a ton of fun and was OK with what happened, he admitted that the mistakes he made justified the result).

What? You mean you're willing to miss out on the two (2) short stories I wrote for SR$A? I am hurt, yea, e'en wounded...

Ah, SR$A, that's what we should call it.

TBH, I don't read much of the fiction in the source books.

I don't think I even fully read Buzzkill; and I flat-out ignore the opening chapter pieces.

Not as wounded as I am for you to admit that it is indeed a $ edition.

That damned caps button, revealing all dark secrets!

Did I accidentally log onto the WotC boards?

Nah, all the Nerdrage left there. I think it came here.

I read *EVERY* short story in SR4A. I liked them. So nyah!

One thing I've enjoyed about SR4A is that they fixed some of the inexplicably bad choices about layout that the first version (was it Catalyst or FanPro?) made. For instance, the way you have stock commlinks on one page in the Wireless World section instead of the gear section, stock operating systems on another page, software upgrades on another page, and hardware upgrades on ANOTHER page... SR4A takes all that stuff and puts it in the same place in the gear section where it rightfully belongs. It also codifies the fixed sensor rules that allow you to upgrade sensor packages, as well as giving ratings and capacities for hearing and vision aids. It's still a little confusing, but it's nice to have. Overall, it's just an easier book to use, especially with the master index that greatly helps when finding stuff when you're not even sure where to look for it.

As for voting 'no' by not buying it... Well they can't de-publish the book, can they? I think a 'no' vote is a day late and dollar short at this point. Obviously, you don't have to buy it if you think there are more bad rules changes than good ones, but then again Catalyst has stressed that nobody has to buy this book in the first place -- it's not much more than an errata with a new format and some new art. It's an updated shiny new version of the same book, it's not Shadowrun 4.5. I don't think they expect everyone to buy this book, especially seeing how they're releasing an errata for free that contains all the changes. I think they're simply banking on the fact that no matter if a few dozen dumpshockers hate whatever they do, they continue to sell out of each printing of the books. If you want them to hear your voice, I'd suggest you contact them directly. Not buying the book is something that millions and millions of people who've never heard of Shadowrun do -- they're not paying attention to who doesn't buy it. And carping on dumpshock is only sporadically attended to buy the devs, and it's hard for them to take it seriously when it's just a small group of people who seem determined to complain no matter what.

I'm not currently running an SR campaign, but I just pre-ordered the hardback. I figure that my current core book has enough changes to it that getting a new book that's up to date will be a good thing. Plus, it sounds like I'll be starting up a game later this year, so it will be nice to have a new starting point.

Plus, based on what I have read, the rules that have changed, I either like or they really never came up enough in game to warrant venom spitting at our table. And, the re-org of the sections and a master index...all worth the $30 to me.

What I have never been able to understand is people thinking they have to change additions or rules just because something is published. I don't know, maybe I just play with too many people that are into WoW. And when they change something, for better or worse, you just work with it and move on. Developers don't make changes to intentionally ruin our fun...they make changes to better balance or simply fix problems. Most of us don't like them because we've been used to playing a different way, and most people don't like change and will find negative in almost anything.

I vote this "best post made to Dumpshock in the last few weeks", and I wish it would fit in my sig.

Seconded... the motion is up for general vote.

I'd just like to point out a flaw in the argument here:

"I don't want to buy the book, I don't like the changes."
"You don't have to, the changes are going to be released free as errata."

Excuse me. But I don't want the damn errata. That's the exact part of why I'm NOT BUYING the damn book!

You can buy my gently-used un-errata'd printing of SR4. I'll sell it cheap.

Seems to solve all problems:)

you added two short stories to SR4A?
ok, just for that i am buying . . i allready have very first printing of 4th ed, and i don't even play, so yeah, fanboy here *g*

We have a copy, thanks.

As a matter of fact, they can. The hardcopies haven't even reached the printers yet; I'll bet that errata and changes discovered on Dumpshock are going to make it into the final version. But indeed, they still could scrap the entire print run at this point, and refund the pre-orders.

As for voting with your wallet: if the book languishes on shelves, that's going to say something. Every dollar spent is a vote. If people don't buy the pdfs and hardcopies, preferring to stick to the errata and/or resorting to piracy, that's going to say something as well.

Really, all SR4.5 has got going for it is that it's shiny. It's got some cool artwork, more fiction, and just enough rules changes to keep things from being backwards-compatible.

how's that positive at all?

Huh?

Yeah. There's a story in how the stories got in there...but I'll save that for another time.

My favourite is the one AH wrote where FastJack fights the Crash Worm. Very, very good.

Where is that?

Right next to the sidebar advertisement for Holostreets.

That story involves some winsome begging on my part.

My favorite too.