Drawbacks of not getting SR4A, Voting No with your wallet... Options

[Malachi]

Where is that?

It's called "Happy Trails" just ahead of the History Lesson chapter.

[Backgammon]

I'm not sure it was explicitaly stated, but making SR4A was also a legal thing. Now, Catalyst published that book, so they can generate errata'd copies as much as they want, whereas before they couldn't.

I mean, SR4A is distinc from the rules change. SR4A is just a pretty aniversary version. The rule changes are errata and were going to happen whether there is a pretty aniversary book out or not. Or, rather, as above, SR4A is the excuse that allows catalyst to publish the errata.

Note, I may be wrong here, but I thought I had understood that from stuff Adam had been saying.

[Larme]

"I don't want to buy the book, I don't like the changes."
"You don't have to, the changes are going to be released free as errata."

Yeah, except that's not my argument. If that was the argument making, I would be a huge retard wouldn't I?

My argument is: not buying the book accomplishes nothing, it doesn't "send a message" like the OP suggested they wanted to do. What I said about it being released as an errata is not a counter to anyone saying they don't want the book, it's a counter to the notion that not buying it would send Catalyst a message of some kind. They don't even expect all players to buy the book, because it is simply another printing which incorporates errata plus extensive reformatting. They are sending us the message: "hey guys, the new printing is really cool, buy it if you want, but if not, that's cool too." The fact that they're releasing the changes in an errata shows that they fully expect plenty of people not to buy it, further reinforcing how not buying it would fail to send them a message of any kind. Next time, you should consider asking for clarification rather than assuming I'm just a big retard. I'd like to think I extend people the same courtesy.

Though apparently, they do listen. http://www.shadowrun4.com/wordpress/2009/0...anges-document/ So bitching on dumpshock probably isn't as futile as I made it sound in my previous post, especially if you do it as long and as loud as people have been doing about SR4A. Which can only be a strike in Catalyst's favor, they're willing to admit their mistakes and acknowledge dissent, even if they don't agree with everything people say on the boards (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

My argument is: not buying the book accomplishes nothing, it doesn't "send a message" like the OP suggested they wanted to do. What I said about it being released as an errata is not a counter to anyone saying they don't want the book, it's a counter to the notion that not buying it would send Catalyst a message of some kind.

You're completely wrong.

CGL is a company, and companies exist to make money. If SR4.5 doesn't make money, that *will* send a message to the folks there. Right now, SR4 core books are apparently selling well. This is an experiment with the core book, to see if a new model will sell better.

If SR4.5 flops, I doubt the rules changes will be blamed, unfortunately. I think instead we'll see stripped-down books with less fluff and a lower price point.

[toturi]

If SR4.5 flops, I doubt the rules changes will be blamed, unfortunately. I think instead we'll see stripped-down books with less fluff and a lower price point.

Of course not, the rules changes would have been deliberate and someone must have sold it to the upper management and some big money would have signed off on it. Blaming the rules changes means accepting responsibility for screwing up on purpose.

[Larme]

You're completely wrong.

CGL is a company, and companies exist to make money. If SR4.5 doesn't make money, that *will* send a message to the folks there. Right now, SR4 core books are apparently selling well. This is an experiment with the core book, to see if a new model will sell better.

I was not suggesting that the book would succeed if lots and lots of people didn't buy it. Rather I was suggesting that perhaps a few dozen dumpshockers are truly outraged about SR4A, and these are the same people who hate everything about SR4, and despite their years of forum-based guerilla warfare, every printing of the core book has sold out so far. That is, I suggest that the number of people who might vote with their wallets on the basis of this forum is infinitesimal compared to the larger SR4 audience, and that a handful of people from Dumpshock refusing to buy the new book will not make it into a failure. Thus, again, no message is likely to be sent if a few people here don't buy it. I was most certainly not making the retarded argument that it wouldn't matter if nobody at all bought it.

I guess I'm confusing people with two sides to my argument, which conflict a bit. So I offer a refinement: they probably do expect people to buy the new book, but not because of the rules changes, those are available for free. They expect us to buy it because it has a master index and they fixed all kinds of fucked up formatting in the original edition, and it's just a nicer product to use. And again, there aren't enough people shrieking on dumpshock to really make the difference of success or failure.

If SR4.5 flops, I doubt the rules changes will be blamed, unfortunately. I think instead we'll see stripped-down books with less fluff and a lower price point.

I really don't think your scenario of the book flopping is plausible. They managed to cram a whole new edition down the throats of every dissenter on Dumpshock, and it's been doing quite well. I even heard from a dev once that they believed there was an active campaign by a certain group to try and cause SR4 to fail. And look where we are, shiny new 20th anniversary edition. Shadowrun is a franchise, and it will take a lot more than controversy over rules tweaks to make it "flop." If D&D can stop being a PnP game and become a non-digital version of WoW without failing utterly, then Shadowrun can survive what are, in the long run, a short list of minor tweaks to game mechanics.

[Dwight]

Whoa a tiny little 4 year old echo of an angry pipe dream!

I even heard from a dev once that they believed there was an active campaign by a certain group to try and cause SR4 to fail.

WTF? That's crazy.

Well I suppose you could view what White Knight did as taking a crack at trying to get SR4, as it is, scuttled before going to press. Actually, come to think of it, that was his stated purpose? Do you think they were referring to him, Motorfirebox, and company? Or someone else?

At least what Kage tried doing was sort of positive in going out and putting together an alternative addressing [some of] SR3's issues. Sure it's something that is likely to all come together some time after people start sprouting Orc tusks (not long now! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) and with a girth that makes HERO look like $2 comic book. But in my opinion that is a bit more positive response.

[knasser]

The errata document is now out. The vast majority of changes are positive ones and a couple of the more controversial issues have now either been changed again or made into optional rules. The assumption the OP makes that they are outraged about all the errata is a hard one to swallow. Is adding a capacity rating for Goggles so traumatic? Is a clarification of how Mana barriers affect targeting of non-living targets so very awful?

If the OP doesn't like the book then the OP shouldn't buy it. But it's not going to show up as any sort of protest. Probably the majority of people who buy it wont have an in-depth knowledge of the rules changes. And plenty of people do care about presentation and great artwork. Put the two editions next to each other and the difference is going to leap out at you.

It's also pretty nasty to complain about "getting someone who knows how to lay out a book." Does that poster want to site some actual examples of what is so very flawed? I've done some layout work myself and the book looks great to me.

[Cain]

And again, there aren't enough people shrieking on dumpshock to really make the difference of success or failure.

There's over a thousand registered members on Dumpshock, most of whom comprise the perfect target audience for SR4.5. I don't know how large the SR4.5 print run is going to be, but losing a thousand sales is going to hurt.

I really don't think your scenario of the book flopping is plausible.

Didn't say it was. However, I do think they're relying on Dumpshockers, as die-hard Shadowrun fans, saying: "Ooh, shiny!" and scoring a thousand easy sales.

[Dwight]

There's over a thousand registered members on Dumpshock, most of whom comprise the perfect target audience for SR4.5. I don't know how large the SR4.5 print run is going to be, but losing a thousand sales is going to hurt.

Of course there are 100% shrieking mad as hell, right? Or is it more like 10%, if that? For SR4 all of Dumpshock was a rolling, boiling pot of angst about that change. It was going to be Shadowrun's death, Fanpro's death!** To the point that the admins roped off corners. Roughly 25% of weekly visitors that logged into their account and ventured into SR4 corner to cast a vote in polls (it was like a couple hundred or so) were assured it was the doom of SR. I don't mean the worried fence sitters. These were the people that they just weren't going to take it up, ever.

Now how'd that go? Besides, you know, a slice of the hard core doomsayers sucking it up and getting it anyway? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So lets compare the boards. Sure there is your grumpy calls of SR4.5 (!), barely background noise even if we just focus on your posting history alone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) , and some sporadic hand wringing. I heard there was about a solid week's worth of WTF explosion? And now, that hard product is out? Meh, an occasional thread like this one. Comparatively this is a nice room temperature jug of water. In all about right for making a little Koolaid.

Would you like one ice cube or two in your glass? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)


** Turns out that Fanpro did go teats up but that had to do with the so long running financial problems with the Germany. If anything SR4 was a bright spot.

[Larme]

Didn't say it was. However, I do think they're relying on Dumpshockers, as die-hard Shadowrun fans, saying: "Ooh, shiny!" and scoring a thousand easy sales.

Sure, and I think a lot of dumpshockers will buy it, and many will pitch a big hissy fit and still buy it, and a few won't buy it at all. I don't think their business model depends on all 1000 of us to buy every product.

[Draco18s]

After having looked over the complete errata sheet the main issues I had with the edition have been mitigated (direct combat spell drain is optional, the OR thresholds reduced, increased attribute cost in karma offset by increased karma awards) I can say that, yes, I will be telling our Treasurer that this book is worth buying.

There were many many things I'd liked about the new "edition" but stacked up didn't equal the cost of the things I didn't like (I of course, still think that rocket scatter is ridiculous), but with the final changes things are looking far more positive than before.

[Kingboy]

It's also pretty nasty to complain about "getting someone who knows how to lay out a book." Does that poster want to site some actual examples of what is so very flawed? I've done some layout work myself and the book looks great to me.

I'd debate how "nasty" it is—snide perhaps—but sure, I'll give you the example that lept off the page(s) at me without even looking for it, and this was on my initial browse through.

The pages in question are 190-191 in the Awakened World section. The bottom section of the right column has the heading "The Astral World" above the enchanting table. No additional text, certainly no text that actually belongs to the Astral World section. So why is it here, instead of at the top of the following page, heading up the new section like it should?

Is there not enough space on 191? Let's check...

Hmm, looking at the bottom of the left column on on 191, there seems to be a three line white space sitting there. That's plenty of space to bring the heading for "The Astral World" over onto the same page as the actual text concerning the Astral World. Compare the heading as it is currently to the text in the opposite column to it on 190 and you'll see that the heading and its leading are easily under three text lines of space.

What does moving it change? Well, it makes the Astral World section look better and eliminates the weirdness of a non-related header sitting smack dab on top of a chart from the previous section. It gives some justification for splitting the paragraph that begins "Like physical perception...", which is better than the current state where a three line orphan section is moved to the next column to leave space for...a three line white space. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) It also allows the Enchanting Table to be moved up bit so that its bottom edge is no longer hanging lower than either the text on 190 or the Assensing Table on the opposing page, which would help unify the look of both pages.

So that's one easily fixable example. But that's certainly not the totality of changes that colud be made to the layout. I'd rather see more time spent on the actual typography—you know, that aspect of overall page design that when done well compliments the reading of text rather than distracts from it—than the shininess of the pages and how colorful they can be.

[Wounded Ronin]

Assuming one wants to show deep displeasure with recent horrible rule changes which according to this forum have been implemented in the Anniversary Edition, such as steep rise of Attribute costs, nerfing of Direct Combat Spells, outrageous OR tables, in the most effective way (by refusing to buy the book and willfully ignoring its existance), does one stand to lose anything else truly useful, by not having such hypothetical book ? Ignore references to gorgeous art. This poster finds it a trivial issue in judging the long-term value of a RPG book. Also assume all SR4 rule supplements are already owned.

Thanks for your answers.

I've got you beat. I'm still gradually acquring 3rd edition books, AND I don't play or GM anymore.

EDIT: If I walked into a radioactive cloud and developed super powers, I'd seriously use my powers for good by creating an SR2 mod for Deus Ex and there'd be lots of neon and trenchcoats with big collars.

[Dwight]

I've got you beat. I'm still gradually acquring 3rd edition books, AND I don't play or GM anymore.

Assuming you are serious, I'm curious to what end you are doing this?

[Dunsany]

I was not suggesting that the book would succeed if lots and lots of people didn't buy it. Rather I was suggesting that perhaps a few dozen dumpshockers are truly outraged about SR4A, and these are the same people who hate everything about SR4, and despite their years of forum-based guerilla warfare, every printing of the core book has sold out so far. That is, I suggest that the number of people who might vote with their wallets on the basis of this forum is infinitesimal compared to the larger SR4 audience, and that a handful of people from Dumpshock refusing to buy the new book will not make it into a failure. Thus, again, no message is likely to be sent if a few people here don't buy it. I was most certainly not making the retarded argument that it wouldn't matter if nobody at all bought it.

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that the book *will* fail because they, personally, don't buy the book. What I do think people are saying is that since they dislike the book and can point to several reasons why they, and others, would dislike the changes that the book *might* not sell well. That and the fact that "voting with your wallet" is a basic tenant of our modern society. We may be alone in our opinion, and our "vote" will not change the outcome as we'd prefer. But that's sort of why we call it a "vote" and not an "order."

Also, I'd like to object to this claim that the "few dozen" dumpshockers that are outraged at the changes in SR4A are the same as the people that hate SR4. It seems to me that the "loudest" opponents to the new changes have come from people that are outspoken supporters of SR4 *and* Catalyst. Also, I'd further like to note that my "outrage" is not at the changes themselves, but the seemingly thoughtless manner in which some of them were made. The specific rules changes don't bother me as much as thinking that I'm going to pay someone for a poor product.

I haven't decided whether I'll buy SR4A. I will mostly likely wait to see what other things have been changed and how well they've been handled. Most people have mentioned a better layout and some other extra "fluff". As these are things that I'm interested in, I might very well buy the product if *that* work is worth the price.

[eidolon]

Assuming you are serious, I'm curious to what end you are doing this?

I got into the game at 3rd ed (after brief exposure to 1st in my early teens), yet I now come pretty close to having every non-LE, English language book. Lots of us collect as well as (or instead of, or as a poor substitute for) play.

[Wounded Ronin]

Assuming you are serious, I'm curious to what end you are doing this?

Oh, it's nothing operatic or dramatic. I just got busy with a full time job and other activities, and I don't have the time anymore, and the old group I'd played 3rd ed. with for years on IRC dissolved a number of years ago. It's just a time and place thing. I probably wouldn't be able to take up RPGs again since you need a lot of things to come together to be able to play them.

Heck, I remember I'd been interested in playing Shadowrun back in middle school, when I realized that Shadowrun had the most culturally authentic 80s American orientalism I'd ever seen, but didn't have the chance for years. Then in 9th or 10th grade I finally got one friend to GM several sessions. Didn't really get the chance to actually play it regularly until college and grad school at which point I played every week for many years. Now that I think about it, it really just requires years of waiting for the chance to be able to play a good paper and pencil RPG, so you need patience and dedication on some level.

[ElFenrir]

After having looked over the complete errata sheet the main issues I had with the edition have been mitigated (direct combat spell drain is optional, the OR thresholds reduced, increased attribute cost in karma offset by increased karma awards) I can say that, yes, I will be telling our Treasurer that this book is worth buying.

Honestly? I'm kinda in this boat as well. The drain change to optional was a great thing. In fact, that was something that I was all for...I'm all about optional rules. (Ok, yes, technically, ALL rules are optional. I know that. But sometimes just seeing other options that were tested already printed out is a big help, since sometimes houserules can break other things down the line they were not intended to.) Since my big concern was raising the Attribute costs and not lowering the skills, I felt that there was indeed a boat missed here in wanting to make skills look better. But then Karma awards were basically doubled...so it sorta...well, ok, didn't change much at all, kinda, in the long run. If I have to pay 15 points to raise my attribute to 5, or 10 points to raise my skill to 5, under the old system, its cheaper for the skill but the Attribute has more stuff linked, but I'm earning, say, 4-5 Karma per week. Now, I earn 9-10 Karma per week, but it costs 25 to raise the attribute but still 10 for the skill. Old system-it would take 3-4 weeks to raise the attribute. New system at 9-10 per week, it takes....3 weeks to raise the Attribute. I had to rub my eyes, but generally, it almost takes less time to raise the Attribute now. I concede my arguement that it was a bad change, since...jeeze, it almost works out BETTER now. But I think I can see the ''catch'', that since you are sitting on much more Karma, the skills look...kinda better to purchase, since one might think ''whoa! after 2 weeks, I can buy 2 3's to 4s, and a whole new skill at 1!'' or something of that matter.

It's one of those rules that looking at it piece by piece looks pretty bad, IMO, but all together(including the much higher Karma awards), isn't that bad. I would still end up giving 950-1000 Karma for the karmagen to keep the power level the way we like it with the x5 costs, but it's not as bad as I thought it would be(remember we play very sporadically and thus don't have fast advancement to begin with.)

I always gave my thumbs up for lower Adept power costs, even though I felt that the cost for Attributes(and what I used) were best at .5/1. At least having them .75/1.5 is a bit better.

All of THAT being said, actually buying the book is something I'm not sure I need to do. My resources are a bit limited, and while the art, from the bit I saw, looks very nice, I do have to put priorities in, and simply sticking with the old edition(or even deciding to try errata later), is in my best interest at the moment. But the fact that they actually listened to some of the suggestions(making the Drain rule optional, increasing Karma to offset higher Attributes, and lowering the OR threshold), makes me give a thumbs up for that.

[Draco18s]

All of THAT being said, actually buying the book is something I'm not sure I need to do. My resources are a bit limited, and while the art, from the bit I saw, looks very nice, I do have to put priorities in, and simply sticking with the old edition(or even deciding to try errata later), is in my best interest at the moment.

The university pays for all of my group's gaming materials. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ah, the pleasures of being a college organization.

(Though our budget was cut in half this year due to them remodeling the athletic building, but then, they took the money out of ALL clubs and organizations, so at least it was fair)

[ElFenrir]

Well, I have another gaming addiction in videogames. That, and the fact that we don't play super-often at the table puts the books, while I like them, a bit lower on the list.

Though damn, getting stuff paid for via university sounds like a sweet deal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Draco18s]

Though damn, getting stuff paid for via university sounds like a sweet deal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The list of stuff he have is huge.
SR 3 and 4
D&D 3.5 and 4
Rifts
WoD: Mage/Werewolf/Vampire
Scion (Hero, Demigod, and God)
a whole bookshelf of board games:
Twilight Imperium
Race for the Galaxy
Power Grid
Tigris and Euphrates
Ticket to Ride
Settlers of Catan (and all expansions)
Arkham Horror (and nearly all expansions)
and a ton of anime DVDs.
And some stuff I'm forgetting

[MYST1C]

So I offer a refinement: they probably do expect people to buy the new book, but not because of the rules changes, those are available for free. They expect us to buy it because it has a master index and they fixed all kinds of fucked up formatting in the original edition, and it's just a nicer product to use.

I think there's a flaw in the basic outlook that many have voiced here - the assumption seems to be that SR4A is basically a money grab, introducing enough changes to make everyone already owning SR4 buy the core book again (à la D&D 3.5).
I see this new version of SR mainly as a means to recruit new players, people who didn't own SR4 before! Hence the new artwork and layout to bring the game up to current full-color standard, new fluff and reworked chapters. Everybody already owning older prints can simply use the released errata (BTW, where are we now in errata numbers - 1.9, 1.10 or 2.0?).

I know that I will buy SR4A - in its German translation. Because this will be the first new translation and release of the core book by Pegasus. All German SR4s currently circulating are from FanPro's 2005 and 2006 printings and are way outdated errata-wise...

[MYST1C]

Turns out that Fanpro did go teats up but that had to do with the so long running financial problems with the Germany.

Well, FanPro did as FASA had done before - stop when you're still making money. But unlike FASA FanPro is still active (in Germany, that is) publishing novels, not games.
And they still make money from the DSA license given to Ulisses just like FASA still makes money from Redbrick's Earthdawn license.

[Adam]

Hmm, looking at the bottom of the left column on on 191, there seems to be a three line white space sitting there. That's plenty of space to bring the heading for "The Astral World" over onto the same page as the actual text concerning the Astral World. Compare the heading as it is currently to the text in the opposite column to it on 190 and you'll see that the heading and its leading are easily under three text lines of space.

A simple last second flow error, easily created by making a correction on a previous page, and that didn't get caught in the original PDF. It's fixed in the latest PDF and in the print version.