Drawbacks of not getting SR4A, Voting No with your wallet... Options

[knasser]

I'd debate how "nasty" it is—snide perhaps—but sure, I'll give you the example that lept off the page(s) at me without even looking for it, and this was on my initial browse through.

The pages in question are 190-191 in the Awakened World section. The bottom section of the right column has the heading "The Astral World" above the enchanting table. No additional text, certainly no text that actually belongs to the Astral World section. So why is it here, instead of at the top of the following page, heading up the new section like it should?

Is there not enough space on 191? Let's check...

Hmm, looking at the bottom of the left column on on 191, there seems to be a three line white space sitting there. That's plenty of space to bring the heading for "The Astral World" over onto the same page as the actual text concerning the Astral World. Compare the heading as it is currently to the text in the opposite column to it on 190 and you'll see that the heading and its leading are easily under three text lines of space.

What does moving it change? Well, it makes the Astral World section look better and eliminates the weirdness of a non-related header sitting smack dab on top of a chart from the previous section. It gives some justification for splitting the paragraph that begins "Like physical perception...", which is better than the current state where a three line orphan section is moved to the next column to leave space for...a three line white space. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) It also allows the Enchanting Table to be moved up bit so that its bottom edge is no longer hanging lower than either the text on 190 or the Assensing Table on the opposing page, which would help unify the look of both pages.

So that's one easily fixable example. But that's certainly not the totality of changes that colud be made to the layout. I'd rather see more time spent on the actual typography—you know, that aspect of overall page design that when done well compliments the reading of text rather than distracts from it—than the shininess of the pages and how colorful they can be.

This confused me for a moment, but fortunately I still had the non-updated version of the PDF as well. This has been fixed in the latest version. The book looks great to me and a huge improvement on the previous one which I previously thought looked nice until SR4A came out and re-calibrated my aesthetics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

K.

[Larme]

Also, I'd like to object to this claim that the "few dozen" dumpshockers that are outraged at the changes in SR4A are the same as the people that hate SR4. It seems to me that the "loudest" opponents to the new changes have come from people that are outspoken supporters of SR4 *and* Catalyst. Also, I'd further like to note that my "outrage" is not at the changes themselves, but the seemingly thoughtless manner in which some of them were made. The specific rules changes don't bother me as much as thinking that I'm going to pay someone for a poor product.

Well, just to be sure everyone is clear, they did fix most of the issues that people had a problem with. So now, there's not much excuse for anyone not to buy the book -- it fixes a lot of problems, it has vastly superior layout compared to the original core book release, and it has a master index. Fluff and art are in there too, but I would recommend it simply because it is quite a bit less painful to use, while still being similar enough that you won't have to re-learn a new book.

[Cardul]

Also, I'd like to object to this claim that the "few dozen" dumpshockers that are outraged at the changes in SR4A are the same as the people that hate SR4. It seems to me that the "loudest" opponents to the new changes have come from people that are outspoken supporters of SR4 *and* Catalyst. Also, I'd further like to note that my "outrage" is not at the changes themselves, but the seemingly thoughtless manner in which some of them were made. The specific rules changes don't bother me as much as thinking that I'm going to pay someone for a poor product.

I haven't decided whether I'll buy SR4A. I will mostly likely wait to see what other things have been changed and how well they've been handled. Most people have mentioned a better layout and some other extra "fluff". As these are things that I'm interested in, I might very well buy the product if *that* work is worth the price.

Well, I am not exactly "outspoken", but I have been playing SR since second edition, and Battletech for a long time. I think that, rules wise, SR4 is the most accessible to a new player. I still think it has area for improvement(Show me a perfect game system, though, and, with a mirror, I shall show you a delusional individual), but it is still better then SR3.
And, here is the thing: I have it on pre-order. And I am GLAD I do. I am looking forward to having it in my hands.

Now, then, as for the stories added: They help make Shadowrun more accessible to new players. They are stories from the past(Fastjack verses the Jormungar Worm Virus, the story of how Picador got revenge for Matador's death) and stories from today(most of them) that help set the mood for the world, show you the setting in ways that, well, honestly, I had almost forgotten about. They even have one with a "Pink Mohawk" working with "Black Trenchcoats" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I got into the game at 3rd ed (after brief exposure to 1st in my early teens), yet I now come pretty close to having every non-LE, English language book. Lots of us collect as well as (or instead of, or as a poor substitute for) play.

Shoot....I am still trying to track some down for their fluff material...

[tete]

Well for me if I don't buy SR4A then there will be even more holes in my all things SR collection (darn old gaming magazines that keep showing up with shadowrun stuff)

[Backgammon]

Wow. Just bought SR4A. Worth every penny. Period. This book is a thing of beauty. There are SO many little added details that add so much, it's amazing.

[Cain]

Yeah, but if all that's good about SR4.5 is that it's shiny, that's really not much of a selling point.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

BUT... sometimes shiny is all you need...

[Backgammon]

It's shiny, better organized (usefull for day-to-day usage) and full of extra fluff.

The shiny and fluff makes me happy, which is reason enough to buy a book. The better organization (reformating of text as well as addition of tables and such) makes it a worthwhile long term purchase.

I had my doubts, but that's how I'm calling it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I was sold on the organizational aspects alone... Three cheers for the combined index of 4e Books... It is about time...

[Cain]

In a pdf, I like quick organization. Extra art and fluff make it harder to get to the rules I'm looking for. And while things look very nice on screen, I exclusively use printed-out pdfs. The art doesn't look as good in B&W, so it's somewhat wasted on me.

Looks cool, I'll admit, but I don't see shelling out up to $65 for it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In a pdf, I like quick organization. Extra art and fluff make it harder to get to the rules I'm looking for. And while things look very nice on screen, I exclusively use printed-out pdfs. The art doesn't look as good in B&W, so it's somewhat wasted on me.

Looks cool, I'll admit, but I don't see shelling out up to $65 for it.

I tend to prefer hard copy, but there are inded times that PDF's come in very useful... And yes, the cost is relatively high, but I am willing to pay a little more for exceptional output, and the new book layout is indeed exceptional in my opinion (far better than some others that I could name that cost as much or more)...

[Matsci]

In a pdf, I like quick organization. Extra art and fluff make it harder to get to the rules I'm looking for. And while things look very nice on screen, I exclusively use printed-out pdfs. The art doesn't look as good in B&W, so it's somewhat wasted on me.

Looks cool, I'll admit, but I don't see shelling out up to $65 for it.

...

exclusively use printed-out pdfs.

I don't see shelling out up to $65 for it.

PDF Only - $25
PDF + Print Pre-Order - $64.99

I think your off about 40$ for your price quote.



----------------
Now playing: Disturbed - Haunted
via FoxyTunes

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think that he meant shelling out $65.00 for a Printed Book (Limited Print Price if I remember correctly)...

Though I would say that unless he is printing his PDF on his own print system (and maybe even if he is) that a Printed PDF can cost a bundle in and of itself (over the cost of the Original PDF)

[Cain]

I think that he meant shelling out $65.00 for a Printed Book (Limited Print Price if I remember correctly)...

Correct

Though I would say that unless he is printing his PDF on his own print system (and maybe even if he is) that a Printed PDF can cost a bundle in and of itself (over the cost of the Original PDF)

All the Dumpshock ToS will allow me to say is that it all depends. Having a brother in law who works at Office Max helps, though.

[imperialus]

Hey, it could be worse...

At least we can still buy PDF's of our books.

Not to hijack but seriously Wizards... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Correct


All the Dumpshock ToS will allow me to say is that it all depends. Having a brother in law who works at Office Max helps, though.

That must indeed be nice...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hey, it could be worse...

At least we can still buy PDF's of our books.

Not to hijack but seriously Wizards... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Definitely some bad behavior on WOTC's part... Fortunately I no longer support that company in any way, shape, or form...

[HardSix]

I'd love to have the new SR4A, but I'm flat broke (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) , and not nearly talented enough to deck myself a better lifestyle. So, I'll have to be content with the latest errata for now and pick up SR4A when I'm gainfully re-employed.

So Catalyst devs, if the economy was better, your pre-order numbers would be +1.

[Wesley Street]

I do appreciate the Matrix rules rewrites as those were my major beef with the SR4 BBB that Fanpro produced. Made things much clearer to me (and it's nice to see that the optional Attributes rules from Unwired were included [and explained!]).

I haven't read through much else but the art is really, really nice. I'm moving away from print anyway so I don't mind $25 for a PDF that will be auto-updated to include errata. My goal is to have all of my Shadowrun materials on an eBook Reader that I can carry around with me in a small case. Gosh, that will be so nice and convenient. I worry about shoulder dislocation when I travel with all of my books.

[Daddy's Litt...]

We held off on any of our team getting 4th Ed. amd have not bought any of the suppliments. We are just playing SR3 with the 4th ed spirits and hacking rules. Now, it's already ed 4.5 and more money. Nope. I have small children and they need the money more than the corp who are already effectively putting out rules 5th ed.

The change in rules, if you do not buy along with them means you can answer fewer threads here about rules since you cannot answer about them.

[Larme]

We held off on any of our team getting 4th Ed. amd have not bought any of the suppliments. We are just playing SR3 with the 4th ed spirits and hacking rules. Now, it's already ed 4.5 and more money. Nope. I have small children and they need the money more than the corp who are already effectively putting out rules 5th ed.

The change in rules, if you do not buy along with them means you can answer fewer threads here about rules since you cannot answer about them.

Ok, I get that you don't want to spend money buying a whole new edition's books, but it sounds like you're actually attacking the company for making new products. If you play 3rd, and aren't even interested in 4th, why even care about SR4A? All this amounts to is a troll, something that might provoke one of SR4A's defenders with no possibility of constructively adding to the discussion.

[Matsci]

We held off on any of our team getting 4th Ed. amd have not bought any of the suppliments. We are just playing SR3 with the 4th ed spirits and hacking rules. Now, it's already ed 4.5 and more money. Nope. I have small children and they need the money more than the corp who are already effectively putting out rules 5th ed.

The change in rules, if you do not buy along with them means you can answer fewer threads here about rules since you cannot answer about them.

I wouldn't call 3 pages of errata a brand new edition. The SR3 Core rulebook had 9 pages of errata

[SpasticTeapot]

A simple last second flow error, easily created by making a correction on a previous page, and that didn't get caught in the original PDF. It's fixed in the latest PDF and in the print version.

All I know is that in both the first and second copies of SR4 I bought (someone stole the first one), there are typos galore - such as half the weapons in the BBB being listed as "machine pistols".

I'd be a lot more pissed about this were it not for the fact that Catalyst inherited a severely flawed product, and now have to sell it. If I've read this thread properly, they're releasing the updated rules as errata for SR4 - sure, it's not convenient, but it's free! They could have pulled a Hasbro (Wizards' parent company) and released Shadowrun 4.5, changing the rules just enough that none of the nifty new stuff out there will work with the old rules and requiring another $35 for a copy.

Also, before everyone starts yammering about illegal PDFs, I might point out that the only reason my GM can run a game is because the players (other than myself, all new) can read the rules without spending a lump of cash; if the game goes well for a month or two, the other players will likely pick a copy for themselves. There's enough rules in the add-on sourcebooks that anyone using them regularly will buy a copy of them, too - something I suspect was deliberate.

[Cain]

Ok, I get that you don't want to spend money buying a whole new edition's books, but it sounds like you're actually attacking the company for making new products. If you play 3rd, and aren't even interested in 4th, why even care about SR4A? All this amounts to is a troll, something that might provoke one of SR4A's defenders with no possibility of constructively adding to the discussion.

This is what the thread is about: if there's any drawbacks to not getting SR4.5 As for trolling, usually it's the one accusing people of trolling that's the guilty party.

Also, before everyone starts yammering about illegal PDFs, I might point out that the only reason my GM can run a game is because the players (other than myself, all new) can read the rules without spending a lump of cash; if the game goes well for a month or two, the other players will likely pick a copy for themselves. There's enough rules in the add-on sourcebooks that anyone using them regularly will buy a copy of them, too - something I suspect was deliberate.

The Dumpshock ToS forbids us from discussing piracy in a positive manner. That being said, you do realize there were pirate copies of SR4.5 out within *hours* of the release?

[Draco18s]

The Dumpshock ToS forbids us from discussing piracy in a positive manner. That being said, you do realize there were pirate copies of SR4.5 out within *hours* of the release?

I'm not surprised in the least.

(Spore was pirated two days before it was released; conversely it took a week before World of Goo was pirated).