SR4A Changes Document online Options

[Kingboy]

Strangely enough, I have an actual question concerning the wording in the Changes Reference Document and whether or not it affects the final version of the Anniversary Edition, both in print and in .pdf from.

Under Game concepts in the CRD we have this:

Extended Test limits number of rolls by a cumulative -1 dice pool modifier per roll.

This makes it seem that the cumulative modifier is mandatory, whereas the SR4A .pdf (originally) listed it as an optional suggestion for GMs wanting to limit the amount of rolls a character could make for specific tests. Is this mechanic intended to be optional or not? Could this be made clear in the CRD for those players who will not be purchasing SR4A at this time?

[Adam]

Bought SR4A from the BattleShop on 13 March. Download link expired on 18 March.

There is no link for downloading the updated version.

Email quartermaster@battlecorps.com and he'll fix things up for you.

[darthmord]

So if we purchased the SR4A PDF from BattleCorp we were suppose to receive an email so we can download the new pdf? If so, I didn't get an email (and neither did my spam filter). I tried signing into BattleCorp to redownload but I cannot (my BattleCorp account says: Ltd Ed. 20th Anniv. Shadowrun, 4th Ed. - Combo (LE & PDF) Link expired on: Monday 16 March, 2009 ).

Heh, I never get those notification emails. As a result, I've missed out on some updates to a couple of PDFs I've gotten from there. Thankfully, my update download for the SR4A PDF was there waiting for me when I checked it the day after the notice was posted here.

[Cardul]

Heh, I never get those notification emails. As a result, I've missed out on some updates to a couple of PDFs I've gotten from there. Thankfully, my update download for the SR4A PDF was there waiting for me when I checked it the day after the notice was posted here.

I have actually never gotten an e-mail telling me about a product update. And, of course, the few times I have bought from them I get the e-mail like one or two days AFTER the product arrived..So, you have to keep an eye up for erata updates, usually, and then go and manually look for the purchases...

[Psikerlord]

Hi all, just wanted to say it's great to see errata support like this. And just my 2 cents, but I like the extra drain on combat spells rule. In 2nd and 3rd edition, good old stunbolt used to fell the mightiest foes without the mage breaking a sweat. You can still do that in SR4... but at least the mage pays something for it (assuming you incorporate the optional rule). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[MJBurrage]

Email quartermaster@battlecorps.com and he'll fix things up for you.

Many thanks, all was resolved very quickly after I sent a missive to the above address.

[cryptoknight]

I'm reading this doc and I see this...

Cumulative positive Social Modifi ers may not exceed the character’s
combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings.

Is this including such things as Kinesthetics, Tailored Pheromones, emotitoys, first impression, cool resolve, etc?

Or is this social modifiers table only?

[Malachi]

Is this including such things as Kinesthetics, Tailored Pheromones, emotitoys, first impression, cool resolve, etc?

Or is this social modifiers table only?

I'm interpreting that as all modifiers. Social Dice Pools can get out of hand as it is.

[Tiger Eyes]

I'm reading this doc and I see this...



Is this including such things as Kinesthetics, Tailored Pheromones, emotitoys, first impression, cool resolve, etc?

Or is this social modifiers table only?

It's all positive social modifiers (ie, positive dicepool modifiers). The examples you mention are all dice pool modifiers, and so would be limited by the character's natural skill + attribute.

[cryptoknight]

Wow talk about a hard hit on the Pornomancer or just the face adept.

For SRM characters do they get to rebuild or something? My face adept can at best start with 11 or so.

Now I have to decide which of the following modifiers to keep.

These are all dice pool modifiers... a ton of them I spent quite a good amount of BP or Karma to pick up.

Dryad +4
Improved Ability Negotiations: +3
Improved Ability Con: +3
Kinesthetics: +3
First Impression: +2
Tailored Pheremones: +2
Emotitoy: +6
Cool Resolve: +3
Spec (Barganing): +2
Spec (Fast Talk): +2

What's worse is that everybody can be a face now.... cha 5 + negotiations 4 = 18 dice. That's Emotitoy +6 Spec in Barganing +2 Tailored Pheremons +1
Remember, Specializations are Dice pool modifiers.

Make a Dryad. CHA 8. Negotiations 6.
There aren't many ways to get past this... you could in theory take the adept improved attribute and take CHA to 12. Even if you do that, you've reached the limits of negotiations.

Dryad at normal maxes: 14 dice (+14 more in social mods). 19 if he or she takes it to the max. Meaning the most dice you can throw ever is 38 for negotiations or con or leadership or anything else.

This isn't the pornomancer with 51 dice... This is a face adept that spent most of his or her adept power points to be a face. Now what's the point?

[paws2sky]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) Wow, definitely not how I read that entry. Sounded to me like it was just the modifiers from the social table...

While I'm not a fan of pornomancers, that's pretty brutal.

-paws

[Ryu]

Furbies are serious business.

[cryptoknight]

Furbies are serious business.

If you ignore the emotitoy which is +6 dice.

Let's look at the others... typically in bargaining (for a shadowrun) or fast talking (because I don't want to kill guards) said character is at least at +14 dice (dryad, improved ability, kinesthetics, tailored pheremones, and a spec), that's not counting when the character can kick in Cool Resolve or First Impression or even the furby.

This character spent build points to get magic ratings and then spent those to be a face... which there's not much point at being because the furby + dryad almost meets his or her bonus dice pool cap at character build. (cha 7, Influence Group 4), after that the character spent karma to pick up the specializations, initiate, raise magic and buy additional face abilities.

If the social modifiers cap was just for stuff from the table, it would be fine... But why have all that social bonus stuff as adept powers if you can't use it?

[hobgoblin]

the furby

im tempted to call that a shadowrun trope (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Larme]

If the social modifiers cap was just for stuff from the table, it would be fine... But why have all that social bonus stuff as adept powers if you can't use it?

The easy fix? Ban the emotitoy, or nerf it. That way, there is a definite point to being a face. That's really the one thing that makes adept powers look useless, and it's not that hard to dump.

[Tyro]

The easy fix? Ban the emotitoy, or nerf it. That way, there is a definite point to being a face. That's really the one thing that makes adept powers look useless, and it's not that hard to dump.

Seconded. SO seconded.

I hate that fuzzball.

[Ryu]

@Cryptoknight: The sum of all negative modifiers includes negative ones. (I would also add that you combine race, qualities, adept powers, specialisations and augmentations for one goal, not just the powerful social adept powers.)

What I would keep:

Dryad +4
Improved Ability Negotiations: +3
Improved Ability Con: +3
Kinesthetics: +3
Cool Resolve: +3

Edit: Not enough morning coffee.

[paws2sky]

@Cryptoknight: The sum of all negative modifiers includes negative ones. (I would also add that you combine race, qualities, adept powers, specialisations and augmentations for one goal, not just the powerful social adept powers.)

Huh. That's an interesting way to read that. If you have a mad dice pool, you can still use the "extra dice" it to offset penalties. I may go with that unless the FAQ smacks that down.

-paws

[Ryu]

From the SR4A changes document: "Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character’s combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings."

I would certainly understand if that reading was smacked down, but: "cumulative positive" "Social Modifiers" or "cumulative" "positive Social Modifiers"? It should be the first, yes?

[Kingboy]

The easy fix? Ban the emotitoy, or nerf it.

You could call this a "nerf" I suppsoe, I call it a proper reading of the rules. Take it for what you will.

Emotitoys have one use: making Sense Motive checks with a dice pool equal to the rating of the Emotitoy. If you suck at making this sort of check, have the Emotitoy do it for you, or have it assist you in a Teamwork Test. Heck, even if you're good at Sense Motive, use it to get a couple of extra dice for the test via a Teamwork Test. Just don't expect it to help you Negotiate for more money from Mr. Johnson. If you want that, quick being a punk and buy the damned Empathy software already, that's the only way to get the bonuses to Social tests.

I guess if you buy the minidrone version, it's good for one other thing: being a relatively innocuous looking recon drone that just about anyone can use, which can be handy.

This has actually been discussed several times, and every time it gets shot down by people who refuse to believe it because they either hate Emotitoys (and like to use it as a poignard with which to skewer the devs) or they love the little buggers (because they are sold on the idea of getting Empathy software for ludicrously cheap).

[Larme]

You could call this a "nerf" I suppsoe, I call it a proper reading of the rules. Take it for what you will.

Emotitoys have one use: making Sense Motive checks with a dice pool equal to the rating of the Emotitoy. If you suck at making this sort of check, have the Emotitoy do it for you, or have it assist you in a Teamwork Test. Heck, even if you're good at Sense Motive, use it to get a couple of extra dice for the test via a Teamwork Test. Just don't expect it to help you Negotiate for more money from Mr. Johnson. If you want that, quick being a punk and buy the damned Empathy software already, that's the only way to get the bonuses to Social tests.

I guess if you buy the minidrone version, it's good for one other thing: being a relatively innocuous looking recon drone that just about anyone can use, which can be handy.

This has actually been discussed several times, and every time it gets shot down by people who refuse to believe it because they either hate Emotitoys (and like to use it as a poignard with which to skewer the devs) or they love the little buggers (because they are sold on the idea of getting Empathy software for ludicrously cheap).

I have no desire to skewer any devs, but here's what it says for Empathy software: "Empathy software can be discreetly used in real time during negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice pool bonus to the character's Social skill tests." And the emotitoy's description says "Shadowrunners have also embraced the emotitoy craze, bringing their "friends"? along to meets to get an edge during negotiations, using the toy's sensors and empathy soft ware to get a read on the other side." Both emotitoys and empathy software specifically say that they work for negotiations. Which makes your "proper reading" a house rule and not an interpretation at all. Don't get me wrong, I love the devs, and unlike the SR4 detractors, I realize that my dislike of something is my own personal preference, not some sort of objectively true thing that I can prove. I disagree strongly with the devs' choice on this matter and I wish they would fix it. But fixing it yourself, and then calling it a "proper reading" doesn't respect the devs any more or any less than fixing it yourself and calling it a house rule.

I don't think your fix matters anyway though. Yeah, the emotitoy is silly because of how cheap it is compared to empathy software. But for +1 bonus die per rating point, empathy software is still massively undercosted. I daresay that there's no fair price for empathy software that provides a bonus to all social intereactions, it is just to damn good, and it makes adepts wonder why they bothered with social powers in light of the SR4A cap on social pools. The solution is to limit empathy software to judge intentions only, or limit it to offsetting negatives only, or to ban it.

I apologize if you thought my suggestion was about emotitoys only, that was not what I meant by the "easy fix" being to delete emotitoys. The problem is not the toy, it's the software in the toy. That's what should be banned as an easy fix. The toy is actually a cool idea, and I couldn't care less about its cheapness, I just believe that it replaces too many adept powers, and makes social adepts extraneous under SR4A where their bonuses are limited by a hard cap.

[Mäx]

I have no desire to skewer any devs, but here's what it says for Empathy software: "Empathy software can be discreetly used in real time during negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice pool bonus to the character's Social skill tests." And the emotitoy's description says "Shadowrunners have also embraced the emotitoy craze, bringing their "friends"� along to meets to get an edge during negotiations, using the toy's sensors and empathy soft ware to get a read on the other side." Both emotitoys and empathy software specifically say that they work for negotiations. Which makes your "proper reading" a house rule and not an interpretation at all. Don't get me wrong, I love the devs, and unlike the SR4 detractors, I realize that my dislike of something is my own personal preference, not some sort of objectively true thing that I can prove. I disagree strongly with the devs' choice on this matter and I wish they would fix it. But fixing it yourself, and then calling it a "proper reading" doesn't respect the devs any more or any less than fixing it yourself and calling it a house rule.

Nowhere does it say that the character gets the bonus dice's from the toys soft, empathy software says that the user gets +1 die to social test per rating and in the case of an emotitoy the user is the toy not the runner who owns the toy.

[hobgoblin]

a simple usage example of said toy would probably have cleared up a whole lot of confusion...

from the writer of said chapter, that is...

[Kingboy]

a simple usage example of said toy would probably have cleared up a whole lot of confusion...

Not necessarily. Look at the train wreck that is (still) the Mystic Adept example given in the SR4/SR4A text. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That whole misunderstood brouhaha threatened to resurface when the SR4A pdf first came out and some new folks came across it for the first time. Luckily it died off pretty rapidly what with all the other hubbub going on.

[hobgoblin]

i think i must have missed that one completely.

ah, i see now. meh, i would say that the problem there is not so much the example itself, but the limited amount of space dedicated to the whole concept.

also, it reminds me of something i read about the text on magic the gathering cards. sometimes there is no way to phrase it so that it can be correctly understood within the limited space available.