SR4A Changes Document online Options

[JonathanC]

You mis-read/present my statements, & entirely ignore my argument and the limiting factors of magic in an attempt to push your views. I will not argue with you over this.

I would, however, just like to say that I am damn good at balancing game mechanics. I do not always get it right the first time, but that is why I test & adjust as needed. I have years of personal experience. I have professional schooling. And it is my career choice.

Yes, there are some aspects of magic in SR4 that are overpowered. There are an equal, possibly greater, amount of mundane area's that are just as unbalanced. Some aspects of magic, particularly Adepts, are severely underpowered.

Unbalanced areas for mundanes? NAME THEM. I want to hear about these incredible, unbalanced things that only mundanes can do. Also, I'd love to hear about where magic is underpowered.

With statements like this, I find it laughable that you claim to have anything resembling competence, let alone skill, with developing game mechanics.

[Cain]

Unbalanced areas for mundanes? NAME THEM. I want to hear about these incredible, unbalanced things that only mundanes can do. Also, I'd love to hear about where magic is underpowered.

While it's theoretically possible for a 400BP mage to get an Edge of 8, the resulting characters aren't viable. So, Edge 8 is pretty much a mundane plaything, and it breaks a game all by itself.

You can create a troll tank with cyberware that can laugh off gauss cannon rounds. You can't do this with magic, because that much cyber would destroy their Essence.

[JonathanC]

While it's theoretically possible for a 400BP mage to get an Edge of 8, the resulting characters aren't viable. So, Edge 8 is pretty much a mundane plaything, and it breaks a game all by itself.

You can create a troll tank with cyberware that can laugh off gauss cannon rounds. You can't do this with magic, because that much cyber would destroy their Essence.

Both of these points are irrelevant, since a mage could compensate for the magic loss easily by initiating and increasing their magic (which they can do infinitely; a cyber or bioware character is limited by essence), and could simply buy their edge that high with karma and easily pull off crap even more ridiculous than what a mundane can do with Edge 8.

Try again.

[RedeemerofOgar]

Both of these points are irrelevant, since a mage could compensate for the magic loss easily by initiating and increasing their magic (which they can do infinitely; a cyber or bioware character is limited by essence), and could simply buy their edge that high with karma and easily pull off crap even more ridiculous than what a mundane can do with Edge 8.

Try again.

And it is possible for a mundane to purchase the Magician Quality in game via karma, but neither that unlikely occurrence nor your unlikely occurrence are relevant to the question. I don't mind the argument in concept, but seriously? You're digging your hole deep enough with reasonable arguments. Don't TRY to be stupid and think it's going to impress anyone.

[img]http://mndigest.shadowdragon.net/postit/smarter.gif[/img]

[RobertB]

Posting here just to cover my bases. I sent this email to the quartermaster email this morning:

"Having not received an email notification that I was eligible to download the updated SR4 Anniversary edition of the .pdf file, I checked my order (Order #41991), to determine if I could download from there, but I cannot. Would it be possible to enable my link so that I can download the updated .pdf file? Thank you."

If someone on the boards handles this, thanks!

[Wordman]

I'd be curious to hear from Catalyst about how you guys thought this sort of "open proofreading prior to printing" process worked. Would you do it again?

[Cain]

Both of these points are irrelevant, since a mage could compensate for the magic loss easily by initiating and increasing their magic (which they can do infinitely; a cyber or bioware character is limited by essence), and could simply buy their edge that high with karma and easily pull off crap even more ridiculous than what a mundane can do with Edge 8.

"Easily"? Assuming you mean "By spending ridiculous and unreasonable amounts of karma" then sure.

Let's say we have a mage with an Edge of 7, ready to raise it to an Edge of 8. It'll cost him 80 karma: 40 for the Lucky Edge, and 40 to raise the stat itself. Meanwhile, a mundane could raise a whole ton of skills for that same amount.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Just because you have trouble with mages doesn't mean they're broken. Try again.

[cryptoknight]

And it is possible for a mundane to purchase the Magician Quality in game via karma, but neither that unlikely occurrence nor your unlikely occurrence are relevant to the question. I don't mind the argument in concept, but seriously? You're digging your hole deep enough with reasonable arguments. Don't TRY to be stupid and think it's going to impress anyone.

No it isn't that quality is a character build only quality.

Note that some qualities might also be considered innate—not
something a character could ever learn—and so should not be awarded
(ambidexterity, for example). The Adept, Magician, Mystic Adept, and
Technomancer qualities may not be awarded; they may only be obtained
during character creation.

[cndblank]

To the designers,

SR4A was a needed adjustment and very sharp looking to boot.

I agree with almost all your reasons for making the changes if not the exact mechanics.

But thanks for listening to your fans on this.

I also want to say I really like seeing the return of shadow talk/fluff that the later 3rd Editions source books dropped.

Please keep up the good work.

BTW, I do think that the active skill soft cost of 10K per level is too high. Skill wires are never going to be as good as someone with the real skills and they are one of the few things to help balance out the Magically Active/Mundane power level.

[Larme]

Of course this thread had to turn into a big argument right away (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Regardless, while I don't think the changes were needed, I don't think Catalyst should be trashed for bowing to pressure, either. The fact is, how powerful a mage is or isn't is 100% absolutely arbitrary. There is no "right" balance for mages, there's just the balance that people prefer or don't. I have mixed feelings about the current balance. Mages are pretty uber, but they are also glass hammers, moreso than any other character build. And it's not like they don't pay most of their points just to be a passable mage. Were the SR4A nerfs a good thing? I think they might have been. I for one would still play a mage post-nerf, because they didn't change the best things about being a mage. I think it's more fun to have limits, because it increases the tactical game you have to play in deciding how to avoid being cornered by stuff that you're weak against. But the system is fine without those nerfs. I simply wish people could relax and take things into stride. We need to realize that the game as a whole is an arbitrary system. If we simply relax and play it without adhering to the stubborn idea that we know the One True Way to play Shadowrun, we'll all have a lot more fun.

[JonathanC]

Of course this thread had to turn into a big argument right away (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Regardless, while I don't think the changes were needed, I don't think Catalyst should be trashed for bowing to pressure, either. The fact is, how powerful a mage is or isn't is 100% absolutely arbitrary. There is no "right" balance for mages, there's just the balance that people prefer or don't. I have mixed feelings about the current balance. Mages are pretty uber, but they are also glass hammers, moreso than any other character build. And it's not like they don't pay most of their points just to be a passable mage. Were the SR4A nerfs a good thing? I think they might have been. I for one would still play a mage post-nerf, because they didn't change the best things about being a mage. I think it's more fun to have limits, because it increases the tactical game you have to play in deciding how to avoid being cornered by stuff that you're weak against. But the system is fine without those nerfs. I simply wish people could relax and take things into stride. We need to realize that the game as a whole is an arbitrary system. If we simply relax and play it without adhering to the stubborn idea that we know the One True Way to play Shadowrun, we'll all have a lot more fun.

It was moronic for them to change it based on the petulant whining of a bunch of idiotic fanboys who have nothing in mind but their own precious "character builds". If people wanted to play with ridiculous rules, they can houserule it; the game itself should be focused solely on what is fun and what is balanced. Mages who can do everything themselves and have no need of team members because the game designers are too ball-less to stand up to the fanboys are neither fun nor balanced.

[Cain]

It was moronic for them to change it based on the petulant whining of a bunch of idiotic fanboys who have nothing in mind but their own precious "character builds". If people wanted to play with ridiculous rules, they can houserule it; the game itself should be focused solely on what is fun and what is balanced. Mages who can do everything themselves and have no need of team members because the game designers are too ball-less to stand up to the fanboys are neither fun nor balanced.

Ignoring, of course, the fact that it can be mathematically demonstrated that some of the changes are unbalanced, and therefore, unfun. Like the fact that if you use the optional rule, you take less drain overcasting direct combat spells than casting them normally.

[Ayeohx]

I still cannot download the latest version of the SR4A PDF from Battlecorps. Can anyone else that previously purchased the pdf download the updated file?

Oh, and you guys are taking this way too seriously. Besides, hasn't the "Direct Combat spell get extra drain rule" been moved to "optional"? If you like the rule, use it, otherwise don't. Now if you have to complain about something check the ramming rules.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Oh, and you guys are taking this way too seriously. Besides, hasn't the "Direct Combat spell get extra drain rule" been moved to "optional"? If you like the rule, use it, otherwise don't. Now if you have to complain about something check the ramming rules.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

JonathanC was complaining about the fact that it's been moved to "Optional", ignoring the fact that it encouraged overcasting.

[Cardul]

I still cannot download the latest version of the SR4A PDF from Battlecorps. Can anyone else that previously purchased the pdf download the updated file?

I had no problems downloading it, but my lap-top monitor is too small...I cannot have both pages up and readable at the same time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) So, I cannot really peruse it at work easily...

My home computer with its brand new monitor, though..it looks really good on(and the two pages are bout the size of the print book, so...are easily readable!)

[The Mack]

Do you play SR to cast Turn to Goo on drones? The average magician in the average game isn't going to encounter the highest levels of OR. If they need to get past electronics, they should have teammates for that.

Do you ever stop spewing utter nonsense? For one thing, Turn to Goo doesn't work on drones. have you ever even played a mage?



Take 400 BP, build the super mage that can do everything mundanes can do - or for a moment (if you're capable) consider the costs of all these things you propose mages are can do.

Hermit was offered the challenge and pretty much disappeared from the boards, you're in the same league of drivel spew - why you don't you put up or shut up?

Build the mage and impress us all, or STFU.

[Tyro]

Do you ever stop spewing utter nonsense? For one thing, Turn to Goo doesn't work on drones. have you ever even played a mage?



Take 400 BP, build the super mage that can do everything mundanes can do - or for a moment (if you're capable) consider the costs of all these things you propose mages are can do.

Hermit was offered the challenge and pretty much disappeared from the boards, you're in the same league of drivel spew - why you don't you put up or shut up?

Build the mage and impress us all, or STFU.

I don't agree or disagree particularly with either of you, and I'm no mod, but IMO that was out of line.

[Ayeohx]

I don't agree or disagree particularly with either of you, and I'm no mod, but IMO that was out of line.

Well, he did call quite a few people "a bunch of idiotic fanboys". May have made some enemies there. I don't care either way, I just want my pdf!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[JonathanC]

JonathanC was complaining about the fact that it's been moved to "Optional", ignoring the fact that it encouraged overcasting.

No, I was complaining about the ridiculous revision of the OR table due to the whining of people like Cain.

[JonathanC]

Ignoring, of course, the fact that it can be mathematically demonstrated that some of the changes are unbalanced, and therefore, unfun. Like the fact that if you use the optional rule, you take less drain overcasting direct combat spells than casting them normally.

Wouldn't that be balanced by the fact that the penalties for failing the drain test are much more severe for overcasting? You can get stun back easily. Physical damage is a pain in the ass, especially for mages, who typically aren't that big on Body.

[JonathanC]

Do you ever stop spewing utter nonsense? For one thing, Turn to Goo doesn't work on drones. have you ever even played a mage?



Take 400 BP, build the super mage that can do everything mundanes can do - or for a moment (if you're capable) consider the costs of all these things you propose mages are can do.

Hermit was offered the challenge and pretty much disappeared from the boards, you're in the same league of drivel spew - why you don't you put up or shut up?

Build the mage and impress us all, or STFU.

I'll build the super-Mage when one of you whiners can show me the mundane who is supposed to be as unbalanced, versatile, and overall POWERFUL as a mage. And no, showing me a one-trick glass canon gunbunny doesn't fit the bill, neither does a super-troll who rides the short bus and can't remember his own name.

Do you know what they call people who throw out challenges like that when they haven't provided any evidence of their own? Hypocrites. Me, I just call them whiny mage fanboys. Go play a White Wolf game and leave Cyberpunk to people who actually want to play Cyberpunk.

[The Mack]

I don't agree or disagree particularly with either of you, and I'm no mod, but IMO that was out of line.

Being a toxic poster and ranting in every single thread that touches on the subject of magic with an opinion that is clearly not the norm is also uncalled for.

Do you know what they call people who throw out challenges like that when they haven't provided any evidence of their own? Hypocrites.

Evidence for what? I've made no claims of anykind. There I have nothing to prove.

You, on the other hand, have made constant claims of how ridiculously overpowered you think magic is.

And when people disagree with you, you just continue to rant without proving it.

Hypocrites. Me, I just call them whiny mage fanboys. Go play a White Wolf game and leave Cyberpunk to people who actually want to play Cyberpunk.

This isn't cyberpunk.

This is Shadowrun.


You do realize that Shadowrun's history is rooted in magic right?

If you seriously can't stand magic that much, and hate it so thoroughly that you feel a need to derail and poison every thread that brings up magic, then maybe you're the one playing the wrong game as magic isn't going anywhere.

[Tyro]

[Edit:] This was me complaining about something because I'd misread what was meant. This is me fixing my mistake.

[The Mack]

I don't believe I'd ever seen such blatant trolling on this board before. I've been polite. I ask that you do us ALL the courtesy of doing likewise. If you're going to accuse other posters of "toxic posting", I suggest you a) back it up with quotes and b) refrain from engaging in the very behavior which you are railing against.

Ok, PM sent. I could put the quotes here, but that would continue the derailing of the thread.

[Cain]

No, I was complaining about the ridiculous revision of the OR table due to the whining of people like Cain.

If you've been paying attention and reading posts, you would have noticed that I haven't made any comments on the OR, one way or the other. So, how about you get off the persecution complex, and try a logical debate instead o f an ad hominem?

Wouldn't that be balanced by the fact that the penalties for failing the drain test are much more severe for overcasting?

Physical Drain can be healed in minutes with first aid. Stun damage takes an hour or more to heal naturally. So, no, it doesn't balance out.