Dodge mechanics, Full Dodge vs Parry vs Gymnastics Dodge Options

[Rad]

>checks books<

Ah, another change in 4a I hadn't tracked down yet. In the old BBB there was a misprint where it said Weapon Skill + Dodge in one place for full parry, and Weapon Skill + Weapon Skill in another, which was eventually clarified that the Weapon Skill + Dodge was the correct one.

Damn, that means I've been positively screwing myself on my full parry rolls--my weapon skill is much higher than my dodge!

[crazyconscript]

huh, i'll have to look through my BBB for that misprint. I cant ever remember seeing it as weapon skill+dodge for parrying. And i cant remember that being in any errata (i dont have 4a)

[Draco18s]

Yeah, that's not a 4A change. That's been there.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, that's not a 4A change. That's been there.

Also what I though I remembered, but hey, I generally never use gymnastics dodge anyway...

[Falconer]

Okay... now I'm looking at the 4a.

Full Dodge: adds dodge to either ranged or melee
Full Parry: only works against melee
Full Gymnastics: I was under the impression that this only did Reaction + Gymnastics but worked against either avoiding the doubling, but being better than nothing (and a lot eaiser to boost up) than the dodge skill itself.


The other thing which strikes me is that the editors should be shot for a completely inconsistent style.
Under full dodge, the write out X + Y + Z or X + Y.
Full parry: X + 2Y....
Gymnastics: add to pool... which pool.. what sets the basis of the pool... if it means add to the normal base defense then yeah, dodge is pointless unless you're a driver/rigger and need it for vehicles.

Dodge's other problem is unlike gymnastics it's not in a skill group.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Dodge's other problem is unlike gymnastics it's not in a skill group.

Which I see as a Bonus (not Liability) as it is extremely easy to raise independently of any other skill group...

For 20 points, I can raise my Athletics Group from a 3 to a 4...

Assuming I did not have a Dodge Skill at all, I could raise it for the Same 20 points from a 0 to a 3 (with 6 points left over)... assuming I already had a 3, I could raise it to 5 (with 2 points added for a Speciality in Ranged Combat, if I had not done so already)... Much more efficient to raise Dodge individually than the Athletics group as a whole...

[Draco18s]

OTOH by raising Athletics you have one more die to Running (sprint in combat, anyone?), Swimming, and Climbing.

Swim and Climb don't come up very often, but Running does for my group.

So for 20 points I get +1 to 2 skills (3 to 4) or I could get dodge (one skill) get a +2.

Seems reasonably balanced to me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

OTOH by raising Athletics you have one more die to Running (sprint in combat, anyone?), Swimming, and Climbing.

Swim and Climb don't come up very often, but Running does for my group.

So for 20 points I get +1 to 2 skills (3 to 4) or I could get dodge (one skill) get a +2.

Seems reasonably balanced to me.

Agreed... on both counts

[evilgeniusx]

That's true, but you have to look at the wording of the whole section. Why would they say "both" first, and then "either," if what they meant was "both?" Different words in the same section probably mean different things. If they had meant the same thing, they would have used the same word. Either we can assume they intentionally used different words to mean different things, or they committed an egregious grammar snafu and used different words to mean the same thing just to confuse us. I mean honestly, if you want two paragraphs to have the same meaning, you generally use the same words if you can, right? If you want them to have different meanings, you use different language. I just can't accept the view that the devs are so awful at grammar that, within the same section, they use two different (and almost opposite) words to mean the same thing. That would be too hamfisted and inept, even in light of other errors they've let slide. Different words were used here because they were intended to have different meanings, of that I am confident.

You are getting off topic, and the semantics of this are not at issue. On the Catalyst Shadowrun FAQ website http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#3 it says:

What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 151, SR4)?

Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics.

That means both.

[evilgeniusx]

Can you use Unarmed Combat X2 for full parry?

in the 20a rules on defending vs melee it says: "Defenders have three choices for defending against unarmed attacks. If
they have a melee weapon in hand, they can parry the attack by rolling the appropriate weapon skill + Reaction. If they have Unarmed Combat
skill, they can choose to block by rolling Unarmed Combat + Reaction. Or they can simply dodge out of the way using Dodge + Reaction."

then for Full Defense it says: "Full Defense can be taken as a full dodge, full parry, or gymnastics dodge."

No love for unarmed combat & Full Block?
Is the Full Block option supposed to be lumped in with Full Parry here? Parrying IS a specialization for Unarmed Combat...
Why can I Full Defense parry with a weapon but not Full Defense block with an armored arm/leg? Or can I?
Is there really a distinction to be made between block and parry, and if so, why?

[The Jake]

Okay... now I'm looking at the 4a.

Full Dodge: adds dodge to either ranged or melee
Full Parry: only works against melee
Full Gymnastics: I was under the impression that this only did Reaction + Gymnastics but worked against either avoiding the doubling, but being better than nothing (and a lot eaiser to boost up) than the dodge skill itself.


The other thing which strikes me is that the editors should be shot for a completely inconsistent style.
Under full dodge, the write out X + Y + Z or X + Y.
Full parry: X + 2Y....
Gymnastics: add to pool... which pool.. what sets the basis of the pool... if it means add to the normal base defense then yeah, dodge is pointless unless you're a driver/rigger and need it for vehicles.

Dodge's other problem is unlike gymnastics it's not in a skill group.

So true. So very, very true....

- J.

[suppenhuhn]

"Either" and "both" are indeed different words, but their usages overlap, rightly or wrongly. For example, the statement, "At the intersection you can go either right or left." can be interpreted to mean that you must choose one path or the other, or that you have two legitimate options available. One could replace it with the statement (awkward and ugly... but still used), "At the intersection you can go both left and right."

The upshot of what I am saying is that the loose grammar of the writers/editors is once again at fault, not the mechanics of the game.

You point out correctly that the word 'both' is often used with the meaning of 'either'.
It is not correct that 'either' is commonly used to mean 'both' though and thus I think Larme is right.

You are getting off topic, and the semantics of this are not at issue. On the Catalyst Shadowrun FAQ website http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#3 it says:

What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 151, SR4)?

Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics.

That means both.

No it doesn't and it's not off topic either.