Which is better?

My take is that it is easy to get an absurdly high gymnastics dodge pool than any other pool and it can work with ranged and melee combat.

In other words: there's no reason not to pick Gymnastics Dodge over regular dodge - unless your GM is a real tight arse with space or situations where you could use a 'Gymnastics Dodge'.

- J.

This was discussed quite a lot a little while ago, but i'm not sure if a conclusion was ever reached. Look at this thread for a pretty long discussion on the topic.

Personnally, i never actually use gymnastics dodge. Parry for combat characters or dodge for ranged characters mostly.

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

Shame it degenerated rapidly into a meaningless debate over whether a) Dodge is a worthy skill and b) RAW interpretation of how/when to use Gymnastics Dodge.

- J.

Bumping this.

If we assume attributes and skills being equal (round 6s for arguments sake) then the only defining difference is what favorable modifiers one can rack up to affect the roll.

Without delving into books, how many can you rack up for Gymnastics dodge? Enhanced Articulation, Reflex Recorder, Synthacardium, Neo-EPO/Pushed (forget which)?
How many can you get for Dodge itself? Enhanced Articulation, Reflex Recorder, MBW, Neo-EPO/Pushed?
What about Parry?

Which is the higher of the three? Anyone care to post their most outrageous builds here?

- J.

Reakt also helps Dodging. There are Martial Arts and Maneuvers that aid Dodge specifically.

I will shortly be posting a character in the 800 point thread in Community Projects, who will have REA of 13 and Dodge of 10 + ( 1 or 2 ) dice, and dice pools for Combat Defense at 15 for ranged, 26 for melee, and Full Defense (Dodge) of 29 ranged and 39 melee.

Now this would be slightly out of reach for a 400 BP character, but only by a couple of dice. He would be a pretty limited starting character though.

Without digging through things, I remember that Move By Wire gives its rating to Dodge tests, where as the Raptor Cyber Legs (or its SURGE equivelent) gives +2 to Gymnastics.

I've discovered that a simple houserule that removes the Gymnastics Dodge option is best to keep balance. Dodge regains importance for combat purposes, and Gynastics is still valuable for non-combat applications.

Gymnastics is a workable replacement for dodge, if and only if you also have a melee skill to block with. For ranged combat, it is as good as dodge - both are only added for full dodge, otherwise you use Reaction alone. For melee combat, though, it is only useful in full defense, and while it can be added to another skill, it can't be doubled like dodge can.

Dodge is one skill that is useful for both ranged and close combat, which adds to normal melee defense, and which can be better than blocking in certain situations (such as defending against a spirit with elemental aura).

So gymnastics is easier to pump up (synthcardium, Neo-EPO, enhanced articulation, kid stealth or satyr legs, reflex recorder - and half the cost to increase with Improved Ability for adepts), and can be used for other things, but is not as good as a stand-alone defensive skill.

one important thing to note - the MBW bonus is a skill increase so when you go full defense in melee the bonus would be doubled unlike most sources of bonus dice for gymnastics

But MBW allows it for Gymnastics rolls too. That includes Gymnastics dodge. So wouldn't that make Gymnastics Dodge the clear winner?

- J.

Actually no, the MBW system does not contribute its bonus to gymnastics dodge. It specifically states that it grants a "+1 to the characters Dodge skill rating" per level.

dodge is also usable in vehicle combat (whereas neither parry nor gymnastics are).

also, iirc there was a thread a while back where it discussed that it never says you can interrupt full defense with gymnastics (it only says you can with dodge). not sure if that was ever debunked or not, but if that is true then it definitely makes dodge a little bit nicer.

I don't know what debunking there is to do. It's clear, at least in the current copy of SR4A. You can always interrupt with Full Defense if you have another action in the combat turn, and when you do you can choose whether it's full dodge, full parry, or gymnastics dodge.

I'm not sure if the OP already knows this, so I'll say it anyway -- the primary disadvantage of gymnastics dodge is that you have to use it against either ranged or melee, while full dodge works against both. If you have a melee skill that's pretty high, however, it's not such a big deal, since melee defense is practically the same as ranged defense without going on full defense. That is to say, normal ranged attacks are skill + attribute vs. attribute, which means you're very likely to be hit unless you're in full defense (or cover, or what have you). But normal melee attacks are skill + attribute vs. skill + attribute. As long as you are better than or equal to your opposition, you're not that likely to get hit. Though it's still a bit of a gamble -- if it's a powerful attack, you might need to use full defense to make sure you don't get hit.

The other issue is how many dice you can get. Maxed out Dodge would be 6 skill + 1 reflex recorder + 2 from move by wires 2 = 9. Specializing in Dodge(ranged) would be 11.

Gymnastics maxed out would be 6 skill + 1 reflex recorder + 1 Natural Athlete + 3 Synthacardium + 1 enhanced articulation = 12. I don't believe a specialization is possible. The closest one listed is tumbling, and your GM might let you use that specialization on gymnastics dodge when you've got enough space to dodge by tumbling. But as I see it, in order for the specialization to apply, you'd need to specialize in what you're actually doing, which is gymnastic dodging. It's not tumbling, it's not jumping, it's a different action with its own rules. Since there's no specialization for gymnastic dodge listed, I don't think it's available.

So, the difference between gymnastics dodge against ranged attacks and regular dodge against ranged attacks is actually pretty small, but only if you assume that a player has move by wires 2. MBW 2 costs a fortune and takes a lot of essence, so it's not exactly even -- you could probably make a gymnastics character with an equal or better dodge pool without consuming such a huge chunk of your nuyen limit. Also, gymnastics has the advantage of being 12 dice against both melee and ranged, since there's no specialization involved.

You might notice that neither of the pools I listed are actually "maxed out" by the way, but that's because I left out things that both sides could do. Both sides could take Aptitude, and both could take the genetech that adds to all defense rolls. I guess, technically, gymnastics people could get another die from being Adepts, since Dodge people are already maxed at 6(9) using move by wires, but the gymnastics example above is sitting at 6( and could apply 1 point of improved ability to make their total pool 13. Not that it's a terribly good idea, because being an Adept costs an enormous chunk of BP if all you want it for is one die. But regardless, the point is that it's not a huge difference in pools.

I think the question can boil down to this: do you ever plan to drive a vehicle in combat? If so, learn dodge. Or, do you plan to be really good in melee combat? If so, take Gymnastics because you can achieve a higher pool for cheaper, and it can also be used for balancing and jumping.

Just because I discovered it just today, the rules do state that a character can perform an interrupt Full Defense even if they don't have any actions left in the Combat Turn, using up their first action of the next Combat Turn, but only the first. So the absolute limit of Interrupt actions in a Combat Turn is Initiative Passes + 1. (SRA pg. 148)

Although this disparity in cost would be reduced if the gymnastics-focused character purchased some other form of initiative enhancement, as he is likely to do.

Dodge may be used against Melee attacks.

Parry may be used against Melee attacks.

Full Dodge (Full Defense) may be used against Ranged & Melee attacks, applies skill (not modifiers) twice to Melee.

Full Parry (Full Defense) may be used against Melee attacks, applies skill (not modifiers) twice to Melee.

Gymnastics Dodge (Full Defense) may be used against Ranged & Melee attacks, Parry or Dodge skill also apply to Melee.




What is better is dependent on any given setup - Dodge is better if you do not have a melee skill to Parry with (needs to be at least equal to Gymnastics skill for even comparability). Gymnastics is equal otherwise, but fills a broader role (although one that rarely comes up). Parry is only relevant to determining which is more effective - Dodge or Gymnastics, because it cannot apply to Ranged defense.

Dodge can be specialized. Gymnastics has no defense specialization. It is easier to obtain dice pool modifiers through augmentation to Gymnastics.

Incorrect. Gymnastics Dodge applies fully to both Ranged & Melee defense tests - there is no "choosing", either when you take the skill or use it to go on Full Defense.

The primary disadvantage of Gymnastics Dodge is that you cannot use it except on Full Defense - relevant for Melee defense, not so much for Ranged.

Oh right, thanks for that correction.





Here's the text: "Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks." (emphasis added). Either implies a choice, don't you think? Compare to Full Dodge, which it says may be used against "both ranged and melee attacks." Can you really read with words "either melee or ranged attakcs," and then the words "both ranged and melee attacks," and then tell me that they mean the same thing? I don't see how.

"Either" and "both" are indeed different words, but their usages overlap, rightly or wrongly. For example, the statement, "At the intersection you can go either right or left." can be interpreted to mean that you must choose one path or the other, or that you have two legitimate options available. One could replace it with the statement (awkward and ugly... but still used), "At the intersection you can go both left and right."

The upshot of what I am saying is that the loose grammar of the writers/editors is once again at fault, not the mechanics of the game.

That's true, but you have to look at the wording of the whole section. Why would they say "both" first, and then "either," if what they meant was "both?" Different words in the same section probably mean different things. If they had meant the same thing, they would have used the same word. Either we can assume they intentionally used different words to mean different things, or they committed an egregious grammar snafu and used different words to mean the same thing just to confuse us. I mean honestly, if you want two paragraphs to have the same meaning, you generally use the same words if you can, right? If you want them to have different meanings, you use different language. I just can't accept the view that the devs are so awful at grammar that, within the same section, they use two different (and almost opposite) words to mean the same thing. That would be too hamfisted and inept, even in light of other errors they've let slide. Different words were used here because they were intended to have different meanings, of that I am confident.

I would go with the view that since dodge is a trained combat skill, it makes sense that it works against both ranged and melee attacks when you go on defense, whereas if you are trying to dodge using gymnastics you are trying to improvise maneuvers on the fly, concentrating on one kind of attack.

Granted there is an inconsistency in the use of some language throughout the books. Unlike D&D however, the rulebook isn't not intended to be read as literally as you are interpreting it.

- J.

I've never quite got the "You don't need dodge, just use Gymnastics instead" argument.

Yeah, you can use Gymnastic dodge for full defense (and only full defense), and in some situations it may be better than a normal full defense using dodge or parry--but you're still going to need dodge sooner or later.

One thing to keep in mind is how horrendously awesome the ability to counterstrike or riposte can be, especially when combined with Off Hand Weapon Training and Two Weapon Defense. With those two maneuvers, you can full parry any time you're attacked in melee without having to use an action--and then follow it up with a riposte/counterstrike if you're successful.

Since full parry uses your Reaction + Weapon Skill + Dodge, you're going to want a decent dodge skill, and it's cheaper to just take a 2 point ranged specialization than buy up Gymnastics to the same level--especially considering you might not be able to use it in some circumstances.

It's about efficiency: If you use full parry in melee, your weapon skill is going to help your defense as well as your offense, and any bonuses you get to that skill (from specializations, weapon foci, personalized grip, ect) effectively count twice. Throw in the ability to full-parry for free and then immediately attack with a bonus to your dice pool, and you can do some pretty awful things to melee opponents--and still have the option of full-dodging if their friend whips out a gun.

Personally I always give my characters at least one good melee skill, 1-2 levels of Krav Maga (for the ready weapon and take aim as a free action abilities) and the Off Hand Training and Two Weapon Style martial arts maneuvers.

Even if I'm playing a primarily ranged-combat character, it's good to know I can blenderize anybody who manages to get in close. My current character has a spur in his left hand that he never uses except for the free full-parries. Just pops it out and blocks with it the whole time.

Ummm, what? Full Parry using weapon skill and dodge?
As far as by BBB is concerned at least, full parry is equal to Reaction+(Weapon Skillx2)
And i do love the two-weapon defense maneuver giving full parry essentially all of the time

Rad -

Read BBB p.151


You're confusing Full Parry with Full Dodge in melee, which uses Reaction + Weapon Skill + Dodge. The point being that if you're in melee, you should be using Full Parry, not Full Dodge if you don't have the Dodge skill. Clever use of Martial Arts should help to ensure that you're never without a weapon and always able to bring a weapon to bear (in order to parry).

To put it more simply -
For Range attacks: Gymnastics Dodge (Reaction + Gymnastics)
For Melee attacks: Gymnastics Dodge (Reaction + Gymnastics + Melee) or Full Parry (Reaction + Melee x2)

As you can see, in both cases given above - by RAW, you do not need the Dodge skill for ranged or melee combat by and large (except for limit circumstances such as Vehicle combat).

- J.

>checks books<

Ah, another change in 4a I hadn't tracked down yet. In the old BBB there was a misprint where it said Weapon Skill + Dodge in one place for full parry, and Weapon Skill + Weapon Skill in another, which was eventually clarified that the Weapon Skill + Dodge was the correct one.

Damn, that means I've been positively screwing myself on my full parry rolls--my weapon skill is much higher than my dodge!

huh, i'll have to look through my BBB for that misprint. I cant ever remember seeing it as weapon skill+dodge for parrying. And i cant remember that being in any errata (i dont have 4a)

Yeah, that's not a 4A change. That's been there.

Also what I though I remembered, but hey, I generally never use gymnastics dodge anyway...

Okay... now I'm looking at the 4a.

Full Dodge: adds dodge to either ranged or melee
Full Parry: only works against melee
Full Gymnastics: I was under the impression that this only did Reaction + Gymnastics but worked against either avoiding the doubling, but being better than nothing (and a lot eaiser to boost up) than the dodge skill itself.


The other thing which strikes me is that the editors should be shot for a completely inconsistent style.
Under full dodge, the write out X + Y + Z or X + Y.
Full parry: X + 2Y....
Gymnastics: add to pool... which pool.. what sets the basis of the pool... if it means add to the normal base defense then yeah, dodge is pointless unless you're a driver/rigger and need it for vehicles.

Dodge's other problem is unlike gymnastics it's not in a skill group.

Which I see as a Bonus (not Liability) as it is extremely easy to raise independently of any other skill group...

For 20 points, I can raise my Athletics Group from a 3 to a 4...

Assuming I did not have a Dodge Skill at all, I could raise it for the Same 20 points from a 0 to a 3 (with 6 points left over)... assuming I already had a 3, I could raise it to 5 (with 2 points added for a Speciality in Ranged Combat, if I had not done so already)... Much more efficient to raise Dodge individually than the Athletics group as a whole...

OTOH by raising Athletics you have one more die to Running (sprint in combat, anyone?), Swimming, and Climbing.

Swim and Climb don't come up very often, but Running does for my group.

So for 20 points I get +1 to 2 skills (3 to 4) or I could get dodge (one skill) get a +2.

Seems reasonably balanced to me.

Agreed... on both counts

You are getting off topic, and the semantics of this are not at issue. On the Catalyst Shadowrun FAQ website http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#3 it says:

What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 151, SR4)?

Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics.

That means both.

Can you use Unarmed Combat X2 for full parry?

in the 20a rules on defending vs melee it says: "Defenders have three choices for defending against unarmed attacks. If
they have a melee weapon in hand, they can parry the attack by rolling the appropriate weapon skill + Reaction. If they have Unarmed Combat
skill, they can choose to block by rolling Unarmed Combat + Reaction. Or they can simply dodge out of the way using Dodge + Reaction."

then for Full Defense it says: "Full Defense can be taken as a full dodge, full parry, or gymnastics dodge."

No love for unarmed combat & Full Block?
Is the Full Block option supposed to be lumped in with Full Parry here? Parrying IS a specialization for Unarmed Combat...
Why can I Full Defense parry with a weapon but not Full Defense block with an armored arm/leg? Or can I?
Is there really a distinction to be made between block and parry, and if so, why?

So true. So very, very true....

- J.

You point out correctly that the word 'both' is often used with the meaning of 'either'.
It is not correct that 'either' is commonly used to mean 'both' though and thus I think Larme is right.



No it doesn't and it's not off topic either.