Absolutely necessary optional/house rules, Give me your list Options

[silva]

By the way, I thought about ditching this essence rule of "keeping 2 separated essence metters and summing the higher one with half the lower one".

If I just sum up all essence costs from all implants together (regardless if its cyber or bio), would it crash the game somehow?

[eidolon]

You wouldn't be able to cram nearly as much in, but it wouldn't be unworkable since everyone would have the same limit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't see any problem with it, is what we do for the most part...

[ornot]

Has to do with the math of halving one part, then halving the other.

3 and 2.99 (1.495) = 4.495
3 (1.500) and 3.01 = 4.510
subtract and we get 0.015

The other 0.005 is caught up in that 1.495 to 1.5 shift.

Ummm... Draco, i'm fully cognizant ofthe math.
I asked that question of Muspellheimr to get him to reconsider his position; since he insists that when the ratio of bio to cyber flipflops, the full cyber essence loss continues to apply even when the bio loss is also counted as full. This seems to be a profound disconnect which I am attempting to point out. Of course I'm being ignored, except where I can be misinterpreted, which I suppose is par for the course on the internet. <sigh>

[Inane Imp]

Ornot,
You seem to have misunderstood. Muspellheimer isn't saying the full amount of the cyber continues to apply, but rather since you have seperate Cyber and Bio Essense Holes you suddenly get a very large Cyber Essence hole, as follows:

3 Cyber + (2.9 Bio)/2 = 4.45 Essence Lost = 1.55 Essence = Alive and Kicking A
Add 0.2 Bioware and you get.
(3 Cyber)/2 + 1.5 Cyber hole + 3.1 Bio = 6.1 Essence lost = -0.1 Essence = Dead

You'll notice that the Cyber value has been halved, but since by RAW there is, apparently (I havn't checked), two seperate essence holes halving the value of the Cyberware doesn't give you back Essence to use on the Bioware.


And while this mechanic seems illogical, does that necessarily mean its wrong? Metahuman understanding of essence stems from their understanding of magic and magic certainly doesn't follow scientific rules as we understand them IRL. Maybe this is actually the way Cyber and Bioware impact on essence.

Imp

Edit: Clarity and Formatting
Edit: Oops, thats what you get for THINKING you read the entire thread, when in fact you hadn't.

[Dakka Dakka]

And while this mechanic seems illogical, does that necessarily mean its wrong? Metahuman understanding of essence stems from their understanding of magic and magic certainly doesn't follow scientific rules as we understand them IRL. Maybe this is actually the way Cyber and Bioware impact on essence.

Essence can be measured IP with a good assensing role, and by 2070 there probably have been enough studies to know that for almost everyone a standard Cyberleg costs one Essence. The few exceptions may also have been studied to a suffient extent.

It may have been the intention to screw with characters who start with cyberware and later upgrade to bioware, but IIRC at least one developer regrets that the rule of two holes has been introduced.

In my opinion this rules does not fit in with the fact that there is only one Essence score, as opposed to previous editions, where you had Essence and Bio-Index

[Inane Imp]

It may have been the intention to screw with characters who start with cyberware and later upgrade to bioware, but IIRC at least one developer regrets that the rule of two holes has been introduced.

In my opinion this rules does not fit in with the fact that there is only one Essence score, as opposed to previous editions, where you had Essence and Bio-Index

And, I'm sold. Anything that makes life easier.

Imp

[Stahlseele]

Either use the one Essence hole thingie that can be filled up with anything you like and say that the switcharoo gives you an essence hole, or simply convert bioware essence cost into bioindex cost and use the 3rd ed bioindex.

[Writer]

I'm jumping into this a little late, but, where does it say in the rules that cyberware and bioware create two separate "holes"?

The way I read the rules, the player, not the character, crunches the numbers down, halving which ever is lower between cyber and bio, then adding it to the higher value. This is not something that the SR universe needs a calculator to figure out. It is just a mechanic to show that cyberware and bioware are not the same thing, and that they affect essence differently in some abstract way that allows overlap.

The game mechanics are abstractions to make a fantasy game playable. In game, I doubt there are corporate mages that write down numbers, stating "a limb is one sixth of the subject's essence", or "the essence loss seems to have shifted after the bioware implant."

[Stahlseele]

That with the two holes is in either an errata or in the FAQ.

[Dakka Dakka]

The way I read the rules, the player, not the character, crunches the numbers down, halving which ever is lower between cyber and bio, then adding it to the higher value. This is not something that the SR universe needs a calculator to figure out. It is just a mechanic to show that cyberware and bioware are not the same thing, and that they affect essence differently in some abstract way that allows overlap.

This is were I disagree.

The game mechanics are abstractions to make a fantasy game playable. In game, I doubt there are corporate mages that write down numbers, stating "a limb is one sixth of the subject's essence", or "the essence loss seems to have shifted after the bioware implant."

Why wouldn't a mage do that? Essence and its loss is just as quantifiable and observable in game as other stats. A good Assensing Test (4 Hits) gives the mage the exact Essence score which ingame equates to the exact knowledge how affected the body is by foreign objects. If he does this test before and after an implant has been installed, he knows exactly what impact the implant has on the person. If there are studies with enough test subjects, you get a pretty good approximation. Especially for expensive treatments like cybermancy this is almost essential. Which corp would like to blow millions of ¥ on a cyberzombie, just to have the subject die on the table, because they tried to cram in 'ware worth 12.01 Essence.

That with the two holes is in either an errata or in the FAQ.

No, it is in the Augmentation:

This Essence hole never “heals� naturally. It may, however, be used as a “credit� for any new implants of the same type (cyber- or bioware)—simply deduct the Essence hole from the new implant’s Essence cost before applying it to your total. In other words, if you remove one cyberware item that had an Essence Cost of 1, you may install up to Essence Cost 1 of new cyberware without lowering your Essence total. Any cost over 1 would be deducted as normal. Note that a bioware implant would not be able to fill that same hole, however—cyberware only.

[Caadium]

I actually don't see this as overly complex and have no problem with it. I also don't agree that raiding your bio over 3 (using the previous example) causes one of these holes. It simply shifts whether bio or cyber is the dominant intrusive aspect.

What this rule does is prevent a character from loading up on cyber at creation with the goal of going to all bio later since funds are more available and bio has lower essence costs. In other words, Wired Reflexes 2 can't be removed once you've got the funds (and a contact that maybe the PC spent creation points on just for this) to add in Synaptic Accelerator 3 and 1.5 essence worth of other stuff.

Of course, if the character has the time and money then they can remove the cyber, get gene therapy to fix the 'hole', then add in the bio. That amount of time and cred costs add up, so I'm okay with that. You basically have to remove the ware. Go without it for quite a while (making it harder to make money during that time). Finally, you can put in the new ware.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, as if mundanes were not gimped enough allready . .
it did not work in SR3, due to essence/bio-Index, so why not simply keep that?

[ornot]

Dear gods people. Am I so completely incomprehensible?

Right... this is my last attempt to explain this in a logical fashion.

You have 6 essence total.

Tally up the essence cost of all your cyber and all your bio.

Divide the smaller number by 2.

Add the two numbers.

That is how much essence you have lost.

If you change the ratio of one to the other, work it all out again.

DO NOT apply cyber or bio essence loss directly to your essence pool; work it out as above every time.

You only get an essence hole when you have 'ware taken out.

I apologise to those of you that feel the same way I do, but people keep quoting me, telling me I'm wrong and then spouting either exactly what I am saying, or utterly failing to explain themselves.

[Muspellsheimr]

Yes, except for a few key things.

1) The bioware Essence cost is increasing. It cannot be 'discounted' without a bioware hole, which you do not possess, so you suffer the full effects of this increase.

2) The Essence has already been lost from the cybernetic side, & is not restored.


What you are explaining Ornot is how it should work, and how it does with a single Essence Hole for both cybernetics & bioaugmentation, that applies whenever the what you have costs less than what you had. It may even be what was intended. But it is not RAW.

In the example I have been using, you have already lost the full 3 points of Essence to cybernetics. Just because the current cost is reduced to 1.5 does not mean you can ignore the remaining 1.5. It cannot be applied as a discount to bioware, whether it's a hole or not, & your bioware cost has just increased by another 1.5 Essence, thus, the death of the subject.

[Larme]

Yeah, as if mundanes were not gimped enough allready . .
it did not work in SR3, due to essence/bio-Index, so why not simply keep that?

The reason not to switch back to bio index is that the current rules work 100% fine. There is no automatic death when cyber and bio flip in terms of which one gets divided in half. The new rules work great, and the problem with them has been refuted over and over in this very thread. I actually don't like the old system very much either, 9 bio index is a hell of a lot. The only "brake" on bioware was that you'd go into overstress, but light overstress really didn't matter very much. These rules allow you to have plenty of ware and be very powerful, but you can't load up on 6 essence of cyber AND 9 essence of bio. That was simply too much.

And again, I think we all agree: dividing your cyber or bio in half is not regaining essence, it's just switching how you calculate essence. The rules are very clear the essence holes only happen when ware is removed. Therefore, per RAW, there is nothing at all wrong with the essence rules. Topic over?

[sds]

Muspell, I think that Ornots point - which I happen to agree upon is something like this.
- You have 6 essence points (so far we agree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )
- You have to keep a tally on your essence loss for cyber and bio SEPERATELY
- The highest value (at any given point) you deduct from your essence in full
- The lowest value (at any given point) you divide by two and then deduct from your essence.

When you then install a new piece of equipment, you do not apply it directly to your essence value as you did in SR1-3, rather you go back, and recalculate your cyber- and bio loss seperately - check which one you get to half and then you reapply it to your starting/normal essence.

[Malachi]

... load up on 6 essence of cyber AND 9 essence of bio. ...

I agree with you that the current rules work find, Larme. Just to be nit-picky, the old rules for bio index were calculated as Current Essence + 3. As one lost Essence, the amount of bioware you could install also decreased, as there was less "meat" to upgrade biologically.

[Muspellsheimr]

When you then install a new piece of equipment, you do not apply it directly to your essence value as you did in SR1-3, rather you go back, and recalculate your cyber- and bio loss seperately - check which one you get to half and then you reapply it to your starting/normal essence.

All correct, except that once you determine which value is halved & which is applied in full, you apply cybernetic & bioaugmentation losses separately - it is not a single lump sum, due to the Essence Hole rules (regardless of if they apply in this circumstance or not, they do make you apply cybernetic & bioaugmetnation losses separately).

[Dunsany]

Yes, except for a few key things.

1) The bioware Essence cost is increasing. It cannot be 'discounted' without a bioware hole, which you do not possess, so you suffer the full effects of this increase.

While this claim cites a rule, it inaccurately applies the rule to this situation. The book states this:

Essence losses from cyberware and bioware are tracked separately. Only the higher of the two totals deducts from Essence in full, with the other deducting at half. For example, if a character has an Essence loss of 1.5 from cyberware and 2.5 from bioware, then the character’s Essence is 6 – 2.5 (full bioware) – 0.75 (half cyberware), or 2.75. Players should keep track of both, as it’s possible one can outpace the other as the character implants more cyber or bio into his body.

The book makes no mention of whether this calculation changes when you add more cyberware or bioware, but does acknowledge that the totals could change over time. Using any reasonable logical interpretation this would mean that the equation does not change. The Essence "hole" you describe (for the book example) would be 1.5 from Cyberware and 2.5 from Bioware, as the book clearly states. If you removed the bioware that created that 2.5 essence loss then the character would have a "hole" to the size of 2.5 for bioware. This "hole" could not be filled up with cyberware, and as you can see this also isn't involved in the above equation and so this rule is consistent with the main book's rule on essence loss.

2) The Essence has already been lost from the cybernetic side, & is not restored.

Your example is that a character has 3.0 essence worth of cyberware and 2.9 essence worth of bioware. The character then gets .2 essence worth of bioware. In this case the book clearly indicates that the character has an essence loss of 3.0 from cyberware and an essence loss of 2.9 from bioware. And then later has an essence loss of 3.1 from bioware but maintains the 3.0 from cyberware.

Different terms could have made the process clearer. For example, using the term "essence loss" for the separate totals would seem to be a poor choice as it might confuse people reading quickly or easily confused. So, in order to make this clearer: "Cyberware Essence Loss" is the hole that cannot be filled by bioware (and vice versa) whereas "Total Essence Loss" is a value determined by a simple equation involving "Cyberware Essence Loss" and "Bioware Essence Loss."

[sds]

Okay, not surprisingly I don't agree with you Muspellheimer. Note I don't have SR4A, only SR4 and I'm looking at page 84 and nowhere does it state anything about essence holes - it seems they were only introduced in Augmentation if I'm not mistaken (I think somebody already mentioned this).

In Aug pg. 20 it states that "The removal of an augmentation that costs essence resultst in an "essence hole"..", nowhere is it implied that essence holes can occur in the way you describe.

Furthermore also on page 20 in Aug second paragraph under the boldfaced Essence it goes:
Essence losses from cyber and bio are tracked separately. Only the higher of the two totals deduct from essence in full, the other deducting only half.

This more than implies (to me) that you indeed do calculate it in the way I (and others) have desribed. You calculate cyber loss in one column, bio in the other - halfing the lower one and then apply it to essence. Should your essence loss for bio and/or cyber change you go back and re-start your calculations.

Oh, and regarding lump sum, if that bothers you (even if I'm not sure I wrote that) then you just deduct first the cost for cyber and then the cost for bioware.

Can I ask you to do something? Take a cup of your favourite beverage and sit down and read page 84 in SR4 (or similar in SR4A) and page 20 in Augmentation - thinking that what it says is the way it's been laid out here and try to see if it makes sense or not.

[Larme]

All correct, except that once you determine which value is halved & which is applied in full, you apply cybernetic & bioaugmentation losses separately - it is not a single lump sum, due to the Essence Hole rules (regardless of if they apply in this circumstance or not, they do make you apply cybernetic & bioaugmetnation losses separately).

Yes, everyone agrees that you're wrong. Now maybe you can agree to disagree with us, and end the conversation, because it's just going in circles now. We can get back to the topic of house rules that people think are essential.

[deek]

Here's a couple of mine:

Movement Rules

Movement Rates
Humans, elves, orks Walking = 3m/IP, Running = 6m/IP
Dwarfs Walking = 2m/IP, Running = 4m/IP
Trolls Walking = 4m/IP, Running = 9m/IP

Rules for Sprinting
1 success = 2m/turn or 1m/IP (rounding up)
2 success = 4m/turn or 1m/IP
3 success = 6m/turn or 2m/IP (rounding up)
4 success = 8m/turn or 2m/IP
5 success = 10m/turn or 3m/IP (rounding up)
6 success = 12m/turn or 3m/IP
...

I couldn't stand us always have to screw around with a 1/3 of a hex movement, so I just made all rates divisible by 4 and we all have 4 IPs. Even is some are only available for continued movement. As for the virtual 5th IP...it doesn't involve movement so its not affecting anything else.


Distance Change
1m = 4feet = 1hex

And this I did because I'm an American and can't think in meters. This effectively turns everything into hexes and the only impact is that I have to scale my maps to 1 hex = 4 feet.

I did expand a little on the training rules (basically associating costs to finding trainers, since I couldn't find anything like that in RAW) and a new system for addictions. I'll share those if anyone is interested.

[Dreadlord]

I have Movement House Rules in my game as well.

I have divided up everyone's movement over 5 passes (mostly because it makes the base numbers divisible, but also because my hacker player has 5 passes).

EVERYONE gets to move on all 5 passes. It prevents silliness like a 1 Pass guy being able to get somewhere before the someone with more passes. Now, Initiative matters for movement, and it becomes a lot more tactical for movement.

I also am adding the "Switch Mode" to apply to running versus walking change (stolen from someone on Dumpshock!).

Of course, my players tend to stand out in the open and blast away, depite the consequences... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Inane Imp]

From the 'Can a rating 1 Commlink run programs' thread. A commlink can run up to response programs without penalty, penalties apply at response +1.

Oh and for the record, I agree with Muspellheimer. But would tend to ignore it on grounds of RAI, as Dakka Dakka implied.

Imp