Oni cost? Options

[Larme]

What I want is a game that does not punish a player for playing what they would like to play. Shadowrun has a good foundational system. It has a good setting. Most importantly, I can change the rules where needed, which is why I play it. However, I should not need to change the rules to obtain a balanced game. House rules to fit a particular play style are fine. House rules to avoid gross balance issues in the system are not, & I have a ~20 page pamphlet for exactly that; some are currently experimental, but most are not.

The Oni is a 10BP discrepancy, not 5. It is one of the most minor balance issues in Runners Companion, & even SR4, but it is one of the most blatantly obvious, & the topic of this thread. Which is why I am discussing it. Finally, I would also like to point out that the Oni is cheaper than it should be; the Ork cost is off by 15BP.

Hey look, you CAN express your opinion without using inflammatory language. You don't have to call things retarded, or use the word fuck, to get your point across. All that does is reduce the chance that people will respond rationally, and increase the chance of a flame war. If you don't want a flame war, for god's sake don't act like you do.

As for punishing the player, again, let's put this in perspective. 5 points. That's a very small pile of points. You get a neat appearance. To some people that's not a punishment, that's a cool thing to have, and it's worth 5 points to them. It's not worth it to you. But you can't blame the system because you value cosmetics differently than others. You think being rare and exotic is worth 0, but that doesn't set the value. You need to realize that your assertion, that the system punishes people who play an Oni, is not an absolute fact. It's an opinion based on your own personal preferences. You have no authority to declare whether a cosmetic change is worth points, and you have no standing to criticize those who think that looking like an oni is something of value.

As for the assertion that the entire game is unabalanced: again, that's your opinion, not an absolute fact. Points costs are arbitrary. I am positive that your changes to the rules are, in the end, every bit as arbitrary as the original points costs. You simply prefer them more. Once again, you are attacking the developers for writing Shadowrun by Catalyst Game Labs, and not Shadowrun by Muspellsheimr. Which is a bit crazy, because they don't work for you, or with you, nor can they anticipate your preferences, nor should they. You seem to have very particular preferences, to such an extent that you make a big deal out of a 5 point optional race that doesn't really affect game balance in any significant way. You have got to be kidding me if you think there's such an RPG that could meet your exact preferences, if you're going to be this precise. You're holding the devs to an impossible standard, so you'll forgive me if I don't accept it as a valid criticism of the game.

[The Mack]

As for punishing the player, again, let's put this in perspective. 5 points. That's a very small pile of points. You get a neat appearance. To some people that's not a punishment, that's a cool thing to have, and it's worth 5 points to them. It's not worth it to you. But you can't blame the system because you value cosmetics differently than others. You think being rare and exotic is worth 0, but that doesn't set the value.

Actually I would disagree with this, as the system itself values "striking skin pigmentation" as a negative quality.

Now you're right in that there surely are players that want their character to be "rare and exotic" as you put it, and would be willing to pay for that in points.


That doesn't change the fact that the system itself sees it as a negative quality, that should provide extra build points for saddling yourself with.

And while it may never be a consideration in some games, having increased "...chances of being noticed, recognized, or encountering prejudice." can be a big hinderance in others.


So which ever way it's argued, someone playing an Oni is out an effective 10 BP vs. an Ork with Striking Skin pigmentation.


Now I don't think it's something to really get wildly upset over, but the pricing for the various metatypes (base metatypes included) do come off as quite arbitrary.

[BullZeye]

Oni costs 25 and they get 3 body and 2 strength... Elf costs 30 and get 2 charisma and 1 agility. Yes, orcs get lower max values to few other attributes but seriously, how many have made an orc with maxed out charisma or logic? Let's not even bring trolls to the comparison, as then the numbers would be way off, right?

If it bothers so greatly that Oni costs 25 and orc only 20 and the difference is that terrible 10bp if you count the stats + qualities they get together, then how about not play an Oni. I've heard of some crazy people who buy an Audi even though VW is the same car but lot cheaper (or some even crazier go for Seat or Skoda to get even cheaper but still basically same) just because it's a freakin AUDI. If you go change the logo on the hood, it still doesn't make your VW an Audi, but appears to be for those who know little about cars. Just as you might pass as an Oni to some by taking orc + skin pigment, but you still aren't an Oni.

Style over substance, anyone?

[Larme]

Now I don't think it's something to really get wildly upset over, but the pricing for the various metatypes (base metatypes included) do come off as quite arbitrary.

Exactly. It's incredibly arbitrary. The entire points system is nothing but an arbitrary set of numbers. Onis cost 5 because the devs felt like making them terrible and also cost more points. You can disagree with their decision, but it's not a wrong decision. There is no such thing as a right or wrong decision in such an arbitrary system. The right value is the value that you like, the wrong value is the value that you don't like. And people here seem to be complaining that the devs did something that they don't like. You can explain all the reasons why you don't like it, you can have valid reasons not to like it, but that will never in a million years convert anyone's likes or dislikes into absolute rights and wrongs. I'd appreciate if the SR4 detractors could realize that, that their problems are ones of preference and not Absolute Truth that we have to agree with or we're stupid.

*Not talking specifically to The Mack in most of this post, just SR4 detractors in general.

[suppenhuhn]

There is no such thing as a right or wrong decision in such an arbitrary system.

Uh, no?
Why have a character generation system to begin with if you then deduct arbitrary amounts of BP for different selections?
Might as well roll for point costs or starting BP.

[DireRadiant]

Anyone not playing the One True SR4A Way is wrong.

For only $5000, you get a spiffy set of colorful books, a 4 day weekend session in an exotic location, and a lifetime of fun playing SR4A the One True SR4A Way.

Cash or Credit only.

If you are familiar with the One True SR4A Way you know how to reach me.

[DireRadiant]

I like it. You don't like it. You like it. I don't like it. It could this, It could be that. Is that right? Is this right? Is this wrong? Is that wrong?

This, That, you must choose one. You can only write one word. Choose the word. Is it this or that?

This or That, you will be wrong.

This or That, you will be right.

[paws2sky]

Lay some more of those mellow words on me, daddy-o. *snaps fingers*

-paws

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Under the BP system,our faux Oni now doesn't get +/-35 BPs to blow on tweaking his character

...He gets 30 and 10 points' worth of changeling stuff.

[Larme]

Uh, no?
Why have a character generation system to begin with if you then deduct arbitrary amounts of BP for different selections?
Might as well roll for point costs or starting BP.

Arbitrary, in the sense that I'm using it, means that it's entirely up to the devs' discretion, there are no hard and fast rules telling them what to do. Rolling dice isn't arbitrary, it's random. Arbitrary decisions can still be dictated by rational thought. Onis cost 5 points, in other words, because the devs thought that being rare, unique, different, and/or funny looking had a slight value. You can disagree with that decision, but you can't prove it to be wrong, because it is arbitrary. Until someone comes up with a mathematical system that explains the "right" number of points in every situation, I won't accept anyone telling me that something has the "wrong" points cost, as opposed a points cost they would prefer to see changed.

I have my own opinions about the game too, I think that certain options are undercosted, or overpowered, or whatever. But I recognize that this isn't a problem with Shadowrun, it's a problem with my own personal preferences being unique to me. Nobody could create a game that satisfied all of my own personal preferences unless they were actually writing it for me alone, with my input, so I won't object if this game doesn't. What SR4 detractors seem to have in common is that they have some very picky personal preferences, so to them, the game's flaws are many indeed. But this is a question of degree, not nature. It's still opinion, it's still relative, and any "fix" you create (or feel "forced" to create) is just as arbitrary as the original rules as written.

[deek]

And luckily every game has a GM. So, as a player, regardless whether you feel right or wrong or think game developers are right or wrong, really doesn't matter when you are playing at the GMs table.

I'd be a more happy forum-goer if the SR4 detractors focused their right/wrong debates on their GMs. Now I'd be happy to read about how "your table" does one thing or another, changed a BP cost here or added a house rule there. But a line is crossed when anyone starts telling anyone else what's right or wrong. In fact, I'd care less if a game developer told me what was right or wrong in my game...

[DireRadiant]

Anyone not playing the One True SR4A Way is a bad bad person.

Do not confuse the 1 Tru SR4 Weigh with the One True SR4A Way. It may seem to be as much, nay, even more fun then the One True Sr4A Way, but that is merely an Illusion, you must have fun the way I do it, the way I enjoy it the most, for my way is the best, nay my way is the only way that you can have fun, because I know all, feel all, and know best.

See previous posts for information on learning the One True SR4A Way and learn to have fun in the right and proper way.

[Larme]

And luckily every game has a GM. So, as a player, regardless whether you feel right or wrong or think game developers are right or wrong, really doesn't matter when you are playing at the GMs table.

I'd be a more happy forum-goer if the SR4 detractors focused their right/wrong debates on their GMs. Now I'd be happy to read about how "your table" does one thing or another, changed a BP cost here or added a house rule there. But a line is crossed when anyone starts telling anyone else what's right or wrong. In fact, I'd care less if a game developer told me what was right or wrong in my game...

The problem is, they think that needing house rules in the first place somehow makes the game bad. They want a game where no house rules are necessary, because it already satisfies their preferences 100%, right out of the shrink wrap. But instead of going on a quest for that mythical game, they keep playing this one, making our experience on this forum oh so wonderful with their positive, constructive comments. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[deek]

I wonder if gamers are as particular with instruction manuals?

I mean, I've rarely put together any piece of furniture, kid's toy or model that didn't have at least one piece, instruction or diagram that wasn't a little vague. A few have just been outright wrong. And on at least one occasion, where everything was clear and correct, I preferred to assemble it a little differently, aka MyWay^TM.

When you think about it, that's all a rulebook and even setting are...instructions to assist a GM and players to have fun and play a game...

[suppenhuhn]

Arbitrary decisions can still be dictated by rational thought. Onis cost 5 points, in other words, because the devs thought that being rare, unique, different, and/or funny looking had a slight value.

Oh really?

Blandness
Cost: 10 BP
This character blends into any crowd. He is average in height, weight, and appearance, and has a distinct lack of distinguishing physical characteristics or mannerisms.


Human-Looking
Cost: 5 BP
A metahuman character with the Human-Looking quality can “pass� for human in most circumstances.

Distinctive Style
Bonus: 5 to 35 BP
A character that takes this negative quality possesses at least one distinctive physical feature or unique mannerism (note that what qualifies as a Distinctive Style may vary from group to group; see the What is a Distinctive Style? Sidebar, p. 104). The quality may represent a unique look, a peculiar fashion sense, a trans- or non-metahuman modification, a unique speech pattern—anything that makes the character inconveniently attention-grabbing and memorable.

Notice a tendency here?
You are right that you will never please everyone with a certain point cost or whatever but rules should nonetheless be consistent.

As to making some species more or less rare by adjusting the point cost:
Do you really believe that whether or not a race is present in a certain group of shadowrunners does have any impact on, or is in any way related to, how rare or common they are in the game world?
The only thing you achieve by this is that a race you wanted to make rarer is less competent.

[BullZeye]

Notice a tendency here?

Actually, yes. If you want to make Oni, you gotta pick that race unless you want to stick out. Yes, they are different than other orks, but they look alike any other Oni. So if you want to have a colored and weird face without being distinct, you have to pick Oni instead of making a freak out of some other race. Hence, the race's points are quite balanced, aren't they? Perhaps Oni's have that 5BP as "Oni looking - quality. You pass as one of them and get all the prejudice they deserve." And not having a distinct style negative quality from having a weird skin counts for some points, too. So all in all, 25 sounds about right...

and...

That 5BP vs normal orc sure is going to make all those Onis totally incompetant and game breaking.

Oni boast bright red, blue, or orange skin colors,
slightly protuberant eyes, enlarged pointed ears, curving horns,
and the large builds associated with the robustus metatype. Aside
from making them highly visible, these traits are also seen as
naturally intimidating by many of those who come into contact
with them, especially among the Japanese, who actively avoid their
company—which in turn has led to widespread social and work-
place segregation in Japan. Portrayed as treacherous and hostile in
Japanese folklore and modern media until very recently, oni have
had to endure decades of ostracism and even exile quarantined on
the island of Yomi.

If the GM thinks it's just yet another orc with weird skin and such, then it's that GM's problem to not figure out the difference. I still think it's quite easy solution to this: If you don't like paying that extra 5bp for all that fluff, then don't? Play an orc and buy it all those negative qualities to make it look somewhat alike but if a real Oni catches you... have a docwagon ready.

A question to those who see this as such a big deal: Why is it such a big deal if some metatype is according to your opinion so way off balance? Did an Oni piss in your cheerios and now you want to pay back by playing one? For someone who would pick a metatype for RP reasons wouldn't go bitching about 5bp worth of payment to get to play just what one wants.

[suppenhuhn]

So, why not pay BP for hair colour? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
I mean after all if you want to play a blonde you might as well pay 10 BP for it right?

[Larme]

Oh really?

Blandness
Cost: 10 BP
This character blends into any crowd. He is average in height, weight, and appearance, and has a distinct lack of distinguishing physical characteristics or mannerisms.


Human-Looking
Cost: 5 BP
A metahuman character with the Human-Looking quality can “pass� for human in most circumstances.

Distinctive Style
Bonus: 5 to 35 BP
A character that takes this negative quality possesses at least one distinctive physical feature or unique mannerism (note that what qualifies as a Distinctive Style may vary from group to group; see the What is a Distinctive Style? Sidebar, p. 104). The quality may represent a unique look, a peculiar fashion sense, a trans- or non-metahuman modification, a unique speech pattern—anything that makes the character inconveniently attention-grabbing and memorable.

Notice a tendency here?
You are right that you will never please everyone with a certain point cost or whatever but rules should nonetheless be consistent.

Umm, not really? Unless you're pointing to how distinctive style is a flaw, but Oni effectively pay points for it?

Regardless, your point is not a rebuttal to mine. You're right that being consistent is a good thing. But it doesn't logically follow that inconsistency is always bad in all situations. There are too many variables in a game like Shadowrun to make a simple equivalency like this. In this case, the developers thought that the rarity of Oni should be represented by a points increase, even though that makes them pay points for a flaw. And if that's what they were going for, it works doesn't it? No way in hell are we going to see gaming tables overrun by Oni, now are we? This could very well be a "feature, not a flaw" thing. You might disagree with it, but that doesn't make it a mistake.

As to making some species more or less rare by adjusting the point cost:
Do you really believe that whether or not a race is present in a certain group of shadowrunners does have any impact on, or is in any way related to, how rare or common they are in the game world?
The only thing you achieve by this is that a race you wanted to make rarer is less competent.

Yes, I believe it's related in some way. If you have a random team of runners, with no common background, it would be rare beyond belief for all of them to be Oni. And the fact that Oni pay points for no benefit means that this will indeed be rare. In the same vein, the vast expense of free spirits and AIs partly represents how rare they are, because they're not very good and cost a ton of points. And this too has its intended effect, because you're never going to get entire teams of these train wrecks without some kind of relevant story behind it.

The point is, if a race is supposed to be ultra rare, you'd expect not to find it as part of any given team. Statistics still apply, even when there's a sample size of one. By ensuring that they are not common at a given gaming table, the rules do ensure some degree of internal consistency with the fluff.

As for making them less competent, that's actually a good point. That's how the BP system works. If you want to be an Oni, or an AI, or a Free Spirit, or a Drake, you have to start out worse than anyone else. And part of that is because you pay points for being cool. If you can come up with some other way to buy coolness, you're welcome to use that, but BP is the system already in place. The great thing about SR4 is how they've created this modular, streamlined system that uses only one mechanic for each thing. Of course, sometimes you get things that don't quite fit. That's the price we pay for SR4's streamlined system. I'll take not quite fitting any day over SR3's rules-spread-across-four-books, different-mechanic-for-everything-for-no-reason craziness. Now, there's a good reason for AI's and Free Spirits to start of kinda sucky, because they have more potential for advancement than almost anyone and thus need to start lower for game balance. That doesn't apply to Oni, of course. But seriously, 5 points is less competent? You show me a build that is significantly worse after losing 5 points and I'll eat my hat.

[DireRadiant]

I like to play cards with a 50 card deck. These 52 deck cards are horrible at being divided by 5 or 10 evenly for the people I play with. Whoever designed this 52 card deck sucks. Petition the card company and devs to make 50 card decks! I'm tired of tossing out those extra two cards!

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Can someone just shut this guy up?

[DireRadiant]

My arguments are as valid as anyone else's, though they are abstracted.

Or am I not allowed to argue because I have a different opinion?

[tsuyoshikentsu]

You are. You're not. You're trolling.

Make coherent arguments and address points that have been brought up, or be quiet. You're not adding anything here.

[Lordmalachdrim]

You are. You're not. You're trolling.

Make coherent arguments and address points that have been brought up, or be quiet. You're not adding anything here.

His posts just take a little thought to understand, but are really good and sum up my thoughts of every thread in this vein on Dumpshock. (and many other gaming forums)

[eidolon]

Guys, keep it civil. I don't see anything terribly out of line, here. If you don't like what a person is posting, ignore them, but nobody seems to be breaking any rules here so far.

[suppenhuhn]

Umm, not really? Unless you're pointing to how distinctive style is a flaw, but Oni effectively pay points for it?

I pointed out that your view of being unique as an advantage was apparently the opposite of what the authors of the qualities had in mind.

Regardless, your point is not a rebuttal to mine. You're right that being consistent is a good thing. But it doesn't logically follow that inconsistency is always bad in all situations. There are too many variables in a game like Shadowrun to make a simple equivalency like this.

Er what variables?
Having red skin and being from Japan is good whereas having red skin and being from America is bad?
Being an outcast in your own society somehow is an advantage?
Ya that makes sense and doesn't seem to be random at all.

In this case, the developers thought that the rarity of Oni should be represented by a points increase, even though that makes them pay points for a flaw. And if that's what they were going for, it works doesn't it?

In fact it doesn't. If you want to make an Oni you simply make one. He'll have less points to distribute then an Orc though, for no reason I may add.

Yes, I believe it's related in some way. If you have a random team of runners, with no common background, it would be rare beyond belief for all of them to be Oni.

Yes would be extremely unrealistic. That's why you never see minorities networking or hanging out together. The average bowling team always consists of 3 whites, a black, an asian and an indian, half of which are female.

The point is, if a race is supposed to be ultra rare, you'd expect not to find it as part of any given team. Statistics still apply, even when there's a sample size of one. By ensuring that they are not common at a given gaming table, the rules do ensure some degree of internal consistency with the fluff.

By that approach every npc in the game must be a shadow runner and there are like 20% mundanes.

As for making them less competent, that's actually a good point. That's how the BP system works. If you want to be an Oni, or an AI, or a Free Spirit, or a Drake, you have to start out worse than anyone else.

Imo at least the Spirit is well worth the cost right out of 400BP chargen.

And part of that is because you pay points for being cool. If you can come up with some other way to buy coolness, you're welcome to use that, but BP is the system already in place.

Coolness is about the worst thing you can put a point cost on because what is cool and what isn't is so dependant on ones personal opinion.
Prime examples are elves and vampires. Some people think they are really cool, others that they are extremely gay.

The great thing about SR4 is how they've created this modular, streamlined system that uses only one mechanic for each thing. Of course, sometimes you get things that don't quite fit. That's the price we pay for SR4's streamlined system. I'll take not quite fitting any day over SR3's rules-spread-across-four-books, different-mechanic-for-everything-for-no-reason craziness.

Thank you i already bought a copy, so no need for advertisements.

But seriously, 5 points is less competent? You show me a build that is significantly worse after losing 5 points and I'll eat my hat.

I said less competent, not crippled.
Deduct 5 BP from any build and it will be worse in some way then the build you started out with.