Control rigs Options

[Veggiesama]

SR4A says that control rigs "provide a +2 dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests while the rigger is 'jumped into' a vehicle/drone via virtual reality. This bonus does not apply to other drone manipulation through the Matrix." (p338).

However, in the Wireless World chapter, it says on the sidebar: "a control rig is far more efficient, reflected in the +2 bonus a rigger receives for doing just about anything while jumped into a device."

So which is it? Do control rigs give a +2 bonus on jumped-in Vehicle tests (by the capitalization, I assume they mean Vehicle Active Skill tests: pilot, gunnery), or a +2 bonus on ALL jumped-in tests (initiative, damage resistance, perception, etc.)?

And this stacks with the regular hot sim +2?

[Uli]

I go with the implant description, i.e. +2 bonus on jumped-in Vehicle tests (pilot and nothing more).

And yes, hot sim and the control rig stack, since both are bonuses and not modifiers.

[Wasabi]

I go with the implant description, i.e. +2 bonus on jumped-in Vehicle tests (pilot and nothing more).

And yes, hot sim and the control rig stack, since both are bonuses and not modifiers.

Ditto.

[TBRMInsanity]

Most actions while jumped into the drone are going to be vehicle tests so the statement is the Wireless world is mostly true.

[Veggiesama]

Huh. So what are the advantages of jumping in a drone, as opposed to remote controlling? And since when do you make Vehicle/Maneuver tests with a drone? Something doesn't seem right.

[DireRadiant]

Huh. So what are the advantages of jumping in a drone, as opposed to remote controlling? And since when do you make Vehicle/Maneuver tests with a drone? Something doesn't seem right.

Besides +2 dice when in VR, and + 2 dice with VCR. Not much difference I guess. Or 2 extra IP. But hey....

And you do need to do spend one IP each combat turn or the vehicle goes out of control, which then requires a Vehicle Control Test.

So if you didn't spend any IP controlling your vehicle in the previous combat turn, it may prove useful to have a few extra dice for the control test.

There are also advantages to remote controlling as well, so it depends on what you prefer.

[Jaid]

Huh. So what are the advantages of jumping in a drone, as opposed to remote controlling? And since when do you make Vehicle/Maneuver tests with a drone? Something doesn't seem right.

the advantages are the control rig, and getting a reduced treshold for vehicle tests. note that there is a category of skills called vehicle skills, and the control rig applies to them all (including gunnery). it also applies to medical skills used through a rigged medical station iirc.

as far as when do you make vehicle tests with a drone? once per combat turn, unless you plan on crashing. also every time you want to perform a stunt, in chase combat, whenever you fire a vehicle-mounted weapon (once again, gunnery is a vehicle skill, not a combat skill) and so forth. it comes up lots of times, and yes it is very useful to have.

[Kerrang]

Huh. So what are the advantages of jumping in a drone, as opposed to remote controlling? And since when do you make Vehicle/Maneuver tests with a drone? Something doesn't seem right.

It may or may not be an advantage to jump in to a drone, it will depend on the Rigger/Hacker doing so. The first advantage has already been stated, a Vehicle Control Rig only works when jumped in, so if you have VCR you are getting an extra +2 to most dice pools.

In addition to any bonus provided by a VCR, when jumped in to a drone, you use all of your own skills and attributes to make any checks. In remote Control, you replace any vehicle attribute with your Command rating when making tests (with the exception of perception which still uses the vehicles sensors). Also, commanding the drone takes a Complex Action while using remote control, even if the action would normally be a simple or free action for the drone.

So, say you have gun attached to your drone capable of firing in burst mode, and you are using hot sim with a VCR, here is how Jumped In vs Remote Control would work:

Jumped In:
Gunnery + Agility + 2(hot sim) + 2 VCR - this is a simple action, so you can fire two bursts.

Remote control:
Command + Targeting Autosoft + 2(hot sim) - this is a complex action, so only one burst can be fired.

[Starmage21]

Jumped In:
Gunnery + Agility + 2(hot sim) + 2 VCR - this is a simple action, so you can fire two bursts.

Remote control:
Command + Targeting Autosoft + 2(hot sim) - this is a complex action, so only one burst can be fired.

Might as well make it a long, or full-auto burst (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Veggiesama]

To those mentioning the -1 threshold: doesn't that apply to remote control, anyway? Both take place in VR.

Jumped In:
Gunnery + Agility + 2(hot sim) + 2 VCR - this is a simple action, so you can fire two bursts.

Remote control:
Command + Targeting Autosoft + 2(hot sim) - this is a complex action, so only one burst can be fired.

The chart in SR4A says Sensor + Gunnery for Jumped-In (I assume they mean Response + Gunnery... I don't see the point to Sensor targeting because Response > Sensor in all cases, right?) and Command + Gunnery for remote control.

So all in all, the advantages of being jumped-in are +2 Gunnery and +2 Pilot tests. The disadvantages are you suffer damage every time you're hit, then dumpshock when you get blown up.

I don't see the point of jumping in. Even the advantages are mediocre. Isn't getting a Command program 6 (6000n) much cheaper than a Response of 6 (3000 base + 8000 upgrade)? Plus that Response processor can't be copied, and it's liable to be blown up.

Sorry, I'm just having a hard time understanding why someone would rig, given the disadvantages I'm seeing.

[DireRadiant]

The drone takes the damage, not you.

Otherwise Command or Jumped in, that's up to you and your style. There are advantages to either, some of which aren't simply numbers, and it does depend on what you are doing exactly. If you only do certain things and those things don't get a benefit from VCR, then obviously a VCR is no benefit, and vice versa.

The advantage of Command is that can be done vie AR for example, but then you can't get the VCR bonus, nor Hot Sim.

[Veggiesama]

In hot sim, each time the drone sufers
damage, the rigger must also resist half that amount (round up) in Stun
damage with a Willpower + Biofeedback Filter Test; if the drone is
destroyed, the rigger is dumped from the Matrix (as with jacking out)
and immediately sufers the efects of dumpshock (p. 237).

Anyway, commanding is so 20th century. Judging by all the flavor of being jumped in, I assumed it would be vastly superior.

[Kerrang]

The chart in SR4A says Sensor + Gunnery for Jumped-In (I assume they mean Response + Gunnery... I don't see the point to Sensor targeting because Response > Sensor in all cases, right?) and Command + Gunnery for remote control.

I don't have my rule book in front of me, so I will have to defer to your reading of the chart here. Response is basically the processing power of the drone, whereas sensors are what you would use to acquire targets, so Sensor + Gunnery makes more sense than Response + Gunnery. I am not sure that it makes sense to use Command + Gunnery for remote control, and then use Sensor + Gunnery for jumping in. In both cases the characters Gunnery skill replaces the autosoft, but jumping in actually takes a step back by reintroducing the drone sensors instead of using the characters attribute.

The reasoning seems to go like this: Drone acting on its own will use the Pilot attribute to determine when/where it shoots, and use the targeting autosoft to actually acquire targets and aim at them. Using Remote control, the Pilot attribute is no longer necessary, as the Command program replaces these functions, and use of the characters Gunnery skill removes the need for the drone to acquire and aim at targets. Now I want to jump into the drone, my Gunnery skill is still used to in the same fashion as it was when remote controlling (ostensibly, acquiring and aiming at targets), but suddenly I need to factor in the vehicles sensors to determine when/where to shoot? This does not compute.

In light of this, I am considering implementing a house rule here. The house rule will be very simple, it will utilize the Sensor Targeting rules already in place for the Gunnery skill. The character can use passive targeting and things will work exactly the same as on the Drone table mentioned above (Sensor + Gunnery). Alternately, they can use Active Targeting, and takes a Simple Action to use the drones sensors to lock on to the target, and any extra successes from this test can be used as additional dice for the subsequent normal Gunnery roll (Agility + Gunnery). No hits on this test, and you do not acquire your target.

EDIT: I am not sure if I made it clear or not, but the house rule would only apply when jumped in to the drone.

[Heath Robinson]

Actually, I believe Response is the Response of your Commlink/Nexus.

[Kerrang]

Actually, I believe Response is the Response of your Commlink/Nexus.

Right, all this drone talk caused me to mistype that (that's my story and I'm sticking to it). It still represents, however, the processing power available for the network, and is coupled with the drones pilot attribute for the purposes of interpreting commands.

[Veggiesama]

To quote:

A drone controlled in this manner [jumped in] acts on the rigger’s Initiative—
the rigger and the drone are treated as a single unit. Any tests are
made using the rigger’s skills and the drone’s attributes (substituting
Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition).

I'm looking through the book and trying to figure out why I can't just do Response + Gunnery. Before I thought jumped-in at least had a +2 advantage, but since that doesn't seem to be the case, these are the numbers I'm crunching (starting character):

Doberman (jumped-in) Sensor 3 + Gunnery 3 + Hot sim 2 + Control rig 2 = 10 dice
Doberman (remote-control): Command 5 + Gunnery 3 + Hot sim 2 = 10 dice


Command can be upgraded to 6 quickly after char-gen, but I don't see any way (short of one of the splat books, which I haven't reviewed) to get Sensor past 3.

Anyway, if I don't get any satisfactory answers for why remote-control >= jumped-in (or at least why I'm wrong!), then I know I'm house-ruling remote-controlled out of existence.

EDIT: I am wrong. The Arsenal errata (of all places) lets the Sensor attribute upgrade to 6. I'm not sure if that's attainable out of the box, but at least a +2 die advantage makes me breathe easier.

[Octopiii]

Every action you have the drone do in RC is a complex action. Jumped in, they work as standard actions; you can shoot twice an initiative pass, for example.

Taking damage from being jumped in requires a pretty nasty shot that will likely fry the drone anyway. Your drone gets a dodge roll (using your skill), then a soak roll (armor + body, and I believe drones have hardened armor), then HALF of what's left after these two rolls filters down to you, which you get to soak yet again with a cheap program and an attribute that's useful for matrix based characters. Really, the only time you need to worry is if your drone gets toasted, but dumpshock is never fun.

That said, there's not a ton of dice pool differential between remote and jumped in; Acting twice a pass adds up since you can get up to 5 iniative passes (hot sim + simsense booster + simsense accelerator) - remote controlling would give you five actions a turn; jumped in would give you 10. The RC rigger's actions apparently include ranged and melee defense as well, meaning that if you want the drone to take advantage of your rating 6 command program you need to burn a complex action to do so.

Edit: Realized that you can apparently command a drone past it's inherent 3 IP max, which makes no sense. If I was going to house rule anything about drones, this would be it.

Edit 2: Bizarrely, commanding a drone also uses your own skills, so no, the RC Rigger is not cheaper to build than the Jumper Rigger

Edit 3: Jumper Rigger also wins out in the qualities department. More than Metahuman is a piddling 5bp quality which allows him to jump into, out of, or between drones with a free action. Drone going to get toasted? No problem, jump into it's buddy and continue to fire away like nothing happened! Conversely, the only quality I can see that would help the RC Rigger over the Jumper Rigger is Codeslinger, which gives him a + 2 to control drones at the cost of 10 bp - seeing as how a Control rig only costs 5bp (10k) the RC Rigger loses out here too.

[Heath Robinson]

Edit: What the hell, was I dreaming? I swear there was a post that I was responding to and now I can't see anything.

[Jaid]

1) gunnery is always a complex action anyways.

2) no, you don't get the reduced threshold for VR in remote control.

strictly speaking, however, rolling to dodge would arguably require that you sacrifice a complex action, since you need to control it to dodge, and controlling is always a complex action for the RC rigger. as such, the jumped-in rigger is much less likely to get hit.

[Draco18s]

Anyway, if I don't get any satisfactory answers for why remote-control >= jumped-in (or at least why I'm wrong!), then I know I'm house-ruling remote-controlled out of existence.

You can remote control multiple drones (to do the same action) as one command, IIRC.

[Veggiesama]

Okay, I'm noticing a lot of people are getting things wrong, so I tried to do my homework. Here's my attempt at a complete list of differences (all taken straight from the book), which will hopefully clear up misconceptions:

Issuing Commands
Rigger's action: Simple action per order, but only once needed.
Action happens: During drone's own action phase.
Drones at a time: Multiple (separate orders necessary, unless orders are identical).
Subscription needed: No.
Attribute: Pilot rating
Skill: Autosoft rating
Interface mode: AR or VR.
Vehicle Tests: No bonuses.
Matrix action bonus: No (issuing a command is a Matrix action, but the drone's actual action is not).
Control rig bonus: No.
Other limits: Pilot + Response needed for gray-area/convoluted orders.

Remote Control
Rigger's action: Always Complex, even for Simple actions, like shooting, taking aim, etc. Free actions appear to be exempted (Remote Control action).
Action happens: During rigger's action phase.
Drones at a time: One at a time.
Subscription needed: Yes.
Attribute: Rigger's Command program (or Sensor for Perception tests)
Skill: Rigger's own skill rating
Interface mode: AR or VR.
Vehicle Tests: -1 threshold in VR, or +1 bonus in AR.
Matrix action bonus: Yes (Control Device).
Control rig bonus: No.
Other limits: None.

Jumping In
Rigger's action: Simple Action to "Jump In". Otherwise as normal (firing a weapon system is Complex, anyway).
Action happens: During rigger's action phase.
Drones at a time: One at a time (can still issue commands to other drones, but cannot RC).
Subscription needed: Yes.
Attribute: Drone's Response (Agility/Reaction), or Sensor (Intuition)
Skill: Rigger's own skill rating
Interface mode: VR only.
Vehicle Tests: -1 threshold.
Matrix action bonus: Yes (All actions).
Control rig bonus: Yes (+2 to pilot, +2 to gunnery). Control rig boosters (up to +3 Pilot) also exist.
Other limits: Every time drone takes damage (hot sim), must resist half that amount (round up) in Stun with Willpower + Biofeedback Filter. Suffer dumpshock if drone is destroyed.

Error I found: Under the Control Device section, it says firing a drone-mounted rifle is a Longarms + Command test. Firing drone-mounted weapons is ALWAYS Gunnery + Sensor, except if you're a cyborg (Augmentation p160) or maybe just an anthroform drone.

Where I want to house rule
Calculating a Sensor rating is ridiculously, unnecessary complex (see Arsenal errata).

[Malachi]

In light of this, I am considering implementing a house rule here. The house rule will be very simple, it will utilize the Sensor Targeting rules already in place for the Gunnery skill. The character can use passive targeting and things will work exactly the same as on the Drone table mentioned above (Sensor + Gunnery). Alternately, they can use Active Targeting, and takes a Simple Action to use the drones sensors to lock on to the target, and any extra successes from this test can be used as additional dice for the subsequent normal Gunnery roll (Agility + Gunnery). No hits on this test, and you do not acquire your target.

I would say this is actually RAW, except that the subsequent Gunnery roll would still use Sensor in place of Agility. So, for Active Targeting you make your Sensor roll, then any hits on that test act as a bonus for any subsequent Sensor + Gunnery Tests rolls against that target. Pretty simple.

The debate on whether firing a vehicle weapon is ever a Simple Action has gone around a couple of times. I actually suggested that this be clarified during proofing of SR4A but I guess they didn't have time for that. So, what we're left with is some interpretation. First, we have this:

The rules for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted weapons. The
action required for shooting weapons depends on the mode fired, same
as with normal firearms, but in almost all cases vehicle weapons require
a Complex Action to fire. The Gunnery skill is used for vehiclemounted
weapons.

So, the text there implies that there are some situations where Gunnery is not a Complex Action and a single Burst or Shot can be fired with a Simple Action. The contradictions come, however, on page 148 where Fire Mounted or Vehicle Weapon is listed under Complex Actions and again on page 169 where Fire a Vehicle Weapon is listed, again, under Complex Actions. So, this would seem to imply that firing a Vehicle Weapon is always a Complex Action. However, it is never explicitly stated whether "Jumping In" changes this or not. However, under Jumping In we have this:

When jumped in, the rigger essentially “becomes� the drone, perceiving through its
sensors and operating it as if it were his own body.

So, if ever there was a situation where Gunnery was not a Complex Action, I would say that would be when the Rigger is Jumped In. So, I'm thinking that, given Veggiesama's accurate assessment, that a Jumped In Rigger should have a bit more of an edge over the RC Rigger and I'm thinking this is it. From a fluff standpoint it makes sense. The Control Rig interfaces with the Rigger's motor cortex translating what his/her body thinks is movement into vehicle actions. In all other cases, a person must work through some sort of "interface" be it electronic or mechanical (or a combination of both) in order to operate the vehicle weapon. It makes sense that this would be a Complex Action as instructions from the brain manipulate the interface, which then manipulates the device. In the case of the Jumped In rigger, those brain instructions go directly into operating the device. This should give the Control Rig user a slight but distinct advantage in speed.

[Veggiesama]

One problem I am seeing comes with Active Sensor Targeting. It takes a Simple action to initiate and gives you some bonus dice for your next test. But if all Gunnery tests are Complex Actions, then in every situation you have to wait until the next round before you can fire. Your only real choice is to take two Sensor test actions and then wait.

Contrast that to Take Aim (simple) + Burst/SA/SS (simple), which can be done each round.

I think it would be a very fair house rule (or at least "house clarification") to say that jumped-in riggers aren't limited by the Complex action rule, like Malachi implied.

[Jaid]

anthroform drones can use firearms skill when using handheld weapons (I believe it was clarified to be intended not just for cyborgs by one of the devs, iirc). when doing so, they are neither using a vehicle weapon nor are they using gunnery. therefore, they could use such weapons as a simple action.

also, issuing commands to drones requires a subscription. you can, however, subscribe multiple drones into one slot, provided you give them all the same command.

[Octopiii]

Nice catch on the Gunnery rule; for some reason I thought that the fluff description was a little more clear on the use of the gunnery skill while jumped in. Also, as Jaid said, Issuing Commands requires a subscription, but you can have all your drones in one subscription as long as you are issuing the same command. This comes in handy for the Sammy who wants to bring his own backup along. 3 Steel Lynxes firing full wide bursts, even with the drone's crappy DP, has a noticeable effect. Considering the cheapness of an out of the box Lynx (5k), there's no reason for Sammy's not to branch out into drone world (other than having to decipher the drone combat rules).

I would like to reiterate the real lack of scariness the biofeedback a jumped in rigger gets, as there seems to be an opinion that it's a major drawback. Response 4 + Dodge 4 (6) + Control Rig 2 + Hot Sim 2 is 14 dice to dodge; if they do manage to get more than ~5 hits, they need to have a modified damage higher than the drone's modified armor or it's ignored; which for a Steel Lynx is 9, requiring them to bring some serious armor piercing ammo or have a very good attack rol;. Next, the drone resists with Body + Armor, Steel Lynx: Body 4 + Armor 9. Then, half of that gets resisted by the Rigger: Willpower 5 + Biofeedback 5 + Hot Sim 2 + Codeslinger 2 (if you're really paranoid).

Anything that gets through those 4 steps is a bigger problem than dumpshock.

Electricity damage can be irritating, but with a Rigger built to do his job, it's not likely any attack will achieve enough hits for the secondary effects to occur.