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Veggiesama
SR4A says that control rigs "provide a +2 dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests while the rigger is 'jumped into' a vehicle/drone via virtual reality. This bonus does not apply to other drone manipulation through the Matrix." (p338).

However, in the Wireless World chapter, it says on the sidebar: "a control rig is far more efficient, reflected in the +2 bonus a rigger receives for doing just about anything while jumped into a device."

So which is it? Do control rigs give a +2 bonus on jumped-in Vehicle tests (by the capitalization, I assume they mean Vehicle Active Skill tests: pilot, gunnery), or a +2 bonus on ALL jumped-in tests (initiative, damage resistance, perception, etc.)?

And this stacks with the regular hot sim +2?
Uli
I go with the implant description, i.e. +2 bonus on jumped-in Vehicle tests (pilot and nothing more).

And yes, hot sim and the control rig stack, since both are bonuses and not modifiers.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Uli @ May 4 2009, 05:50 AM) *
I go with the implant description, i.e. +2 bonus on jumped-in Vehicle tests (pilot and nothing more).

And yes, hot sim and the control rig stack, since both are bonuses and not modifiers.


Ditto.
TBRMInsanity
Most actions while jumped into the drone are going to be vehicle tests so the statement is the Wireless world is mostly true.
Veggiesama
Huh. So what are the advantages of jumping in a drone, as opposed to remote controlling? And since when do you make Vehicle/Maneuver tests with a drone? Something doesn't seem right.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ May 4 2009, 10:03 AM) *
Huh. So what are the advantages of jumping in a drone, as opposed to remote controlling? And since when do you make Vehicle/Maneuver tests with a drone? Something doesn't seem right.


Besides +2 dice when in VR, and + 2 dice with VCR. Not much difference I guess. Or 2 extra IP. But hey....

And you do need to do spend one IP each combat turn or the vehicle goes out of control, which then requires a Vehicle Control Test.

So if you didn't spend any IP controlling your vehicle in the previous combat turn, it may prove useful to have a few extra dice for the control test.

There are also advantages to remote controlling as well, so it depends on what you prefer.
Jaid
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ May 4 2009, 10:03 AM) *
Huh. So what are the advantages of jumping in a drone, as opposed to remote controlling? And since when do you make Vehicle/Maneuver tests with a drone? Something doesn't seem right.

the advantages are the control rig, and getting a reduced treshold for vehicle tests. note that there is a category of skills called vehicle skills, and the control rig applies to them all (including gunnery). it also applies to medical skills used through a rigged medical station iirc.

as far as when do you make vehicle tests with a drone? once per combat turn, unless you plan on crashing. also every time you want to perform a stunt, in chase combat, whenever you fire a vehicle-mounted weapon (once again, gunnery is a vehicle skill, not a combat skill) and so forth. it comes up lots of times, and yes it is very useful to have.
Kerrang
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ May 4 2009, 09:03 AM) *
Huh. So what are the advantages of jumping in a drone, as opposed to remote controlling? And since when do you make Vehicle/Maneuver tests with a drone? Something doesn't seem right.


It may or may not be an advantage to jump in to a drone, it will depend on the Rigger/Hacker doing so. The first advantage has already been stated, a Vehicle Control Rig only works when jumped in, so if you have VCR you are getting an extra +2 to most dice pools.

In addition to any bonus provided by a VCR, when jumped in to a drone, you use all of your own skills and attributes to make any checks. In remote Control, you replace any vehicle attribute with your Command rating when making tests (with the exception of perception which still uses the vehicles sensors). Also, commanding the drone takes a Complex Action while using remote control, even if the action would normally be a simple or free action for the drone.

So, say you have gun attached to your drone capable of firing in burst mode, and you are using hot sim with a VCR, here is how Jumped In vs Remote Control would work:

Jumped In:
Gunnery + Agility + 2(hot sim) + 2 VCR - this is a simple action, so you can fire two bursts.

Remote control:
Command + Targeting Autosoft + 2(hot sim) - this is a complex action, so only one burst can be fired.
Starmage21
QUOTE (Kerrang @ May 4 2009, 11:20 AM) *
Jumped In:
Gunnery + Agility + 2(hot sim) + 2 VCR - this is a simple action, so you can fire two bursts.

Remote control:
Command + Targeting Autosoft + 2(hot sim) - this is a complex action, so only one burst can be fired.


Might as well make it a long, or full-auto burst biggrin.gif
Veggiesama
To those mentioning the -1 threshold: doesn't that apply to remote control, anyway? Both take place in VR.

QUOTE (Kerrang @ May 4 2009, 11:20 AM) *
Jumped In:
Gunnery + Agility + 2(hot sim) + 2 VCR - this is a simple action, so you can fire two bursts.

Remote control:
Command + Targeting Autosoft + 2(hot sim) - this is a complex action, so only one burst can be fired.

The chart in SR4A says Sensor + Gunnery for Jumped-In (I assume they mean Response + Gunnery... I don't see the point to Sensor targeting because Response > Sensor in all cases, right?) and Command + Gunnery for remote control.

So all in all, the advantages of being jumped-in are +2 Gunnery and +2 Pilot tests. The disadvantages are you suffer damage every time you're hit, then dumpshock when you get blown up.

I don't see the point of jumping in. Even the advantages are mediocre. Isn't getting a Command program 6 (6000n) much cheaper than a Response of 6 (3000 base + 8000 upgrade)? Plus that Response processor can't be copied, and it's liable to be blown up.

Sorry, I'm just having a hard time understanding why someone would rig, given the disadvantages I'm seeing.
DireRadiant
The drone takes the damage, not you.

Otherwise Command or Jumped in, that's up to you and your style. There are advantages to either, some of which aren't simply numbers, and it does depend on what you are doing exactly. If you only do certain things and those things don't get a benefit from VCR, then obviously a VCR is no benefit, and vice versa.

The advantage of Command is that can be done vie AR for example, but then you can't get the VCR bonus, nor Hot Sim.
Veggiesama
QUOTE
In hot sim, each time the drone sufers
damage, the rigger must also resist half that amount (round up) in Stun
damage with a Willpower + Biofeedback Filter Test; if the drone is
destroyed, the rigger is dumped from the Matrix (as with jacking out)
and immediately sufers the efects of dumpshock (p. 237).


Anyway, commanding is so 20th century. Judging by all the flavor of being jumped in, I assumed it would be vastly superior.
Kerrang
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ May 4 2009, 12:46 PM) *
The chart in SR4A says Sensor + Gunnery for Jumped-In (I assume they mean Response + Gunnery... I don't see the point to Sensor targeting because Response > Sensor in all cases, right?) and Command + Gunnery for remote control.


I don't have my rule book in front of me, so I will have to defer to your reading of the chart here. Response is basically the processing power of the drone, whereas sensors are what you would use to acquire targets, so Sensor + Gunnery makes more sense than Response + Gunnery. I am not sure that it makes sense to use Command + Gunnery for remote control, and then use Sensor + Gunnery for jumping in. In both cases the characters Gunnery skill replaces the autosoft, but jumping in actually takes a step back by reintroducing the drone sensors instead of using the characters attribute.

The reasoning seems to go like this: Drone acting on its own will use the Pilot attribute to determine when/where it shoots, and use the targeting autosoft to actually acquire targets and aim at them. Using Remote control, the Pilot attribute is no longer necessary, as the Command program replaces these functions, and use of the characters Gunnery skill removes the need for the drone to acquire and aim at targets. Now I want to jump into the drone, my Gunnery skill is still used to in the same fashion as it was when remote controlling (ostensibly, acquiring and aiming at targets), but suddenly I need to factor in the vehicles sensors to determine when/where to shoot? This does not compute.

In light of this, I am considering implementing a house rule here. The house rule will be very simple, it will utilize the Sensor Targeting rules already in place for the Gunnery skill. The character can use passive targeting and things will work exactly the same as on the Drone table mentioned above (Sensor + Gunnery). Alternately, they can use Active Targeting, and takes a Simple Action to use the drones sensors to lock on to the target, and any extra successes from this test can be used as additional dice for the subsequent normal Gunnery roll (Agility + Gunnery). No hits on this test, and you do not acquire your target.

EDIT: I am not sure if I made it clear or not, but the house rule would only apply when jumped in to the drone.
Heath Robinson
Actually, I believe Response is the Response of your Commlink/Nexus.
Kerrang
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 4 2009, 01:33 PM) *
Actually, I believe Response is the Response of your Commlink/Nexus.


Right, all this drone talk caused me to mistype that (that's my story and I'm sticking to it). It still represents, however, the processing power available for the network, and is coupled with the drones pilot attribute for the purposes of interpreting commands.
Veggiesama
To quote:
QUOTE
A drone controlled in this manner [jumped in] acts on the rigger’s Initiative—
the rigger and the drone are treated as a single unit. Any tests are
made using the rigger’s skills and the drone’s attributes (substituting
Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition).


I'm looking through the book and trying to figure out why I can't just do Response + Gunnery. Before I thought jumped-in at least had a +2 advantage, but since that doesn't seem to be the case, these are the numbers I'm crunching (starting character):

Doberman (jumped-in) Sensor 3 + Gunnery 3 + Hot sim 2 + Control rig 2 = 10 dice
Doberman (remote-control): Command 5 + Gunnery 3 + Hot sim 2 = 10 dice


Command can be upgraded to 6 quickly after char-gen, but I don't see any way (short of one of the splat books, which I haven't reviewed) to get Sensor past 3.

Anyway, if I don't get any satisfactory answers for why remote-control >= jumped-in (or at least why I'm wrong!), then I know I'm house-ruling remote-controlled out of existence.

EDIT: I am wrong. The Arsenal errata (of all places) lets the Sensor attribute upgrade to 6. I'm not sure if that's attainable out of the box, but at least a +2 die advantage makes me breathe easier.
Octopiii
Every action you have the drone do in RC is a complex action. Jumped in, they work as standard actions; you can shoot twice an initiative pass, for example.

Taking damage from being jumped in requires a pretty nasty shot that will likely fry the drone anyway. Your drone gets a dodge roll (using your skill), then a soak roll (armor + body, and I believe drones have hardened armor), then HALF of what's left after these two rolls filters down to you, which you get to soak yet again with a cheap program and an attribute that's useful for matrix based characters. Really, the only time you need to worry is if your drone gets toasted, but dumpshock is never fun.

That said, there's not a ton of dice pool differential between remote and jumped in; Acting twice a pass adds up since you can get up to 5 iniative passes (hot sim + simsense booster + simsense accelerator) - remote controlling would give you five actions a turn; jumped in would give you 10. The RC rigger's actions apparently include ranged and melee defense as well, meaning that if you want the drone to take advantage of your rating 6 command program you need to burn a complex action to do so.

Edit: Realized that you can apparently command a drone past it's inherent 3 IP max, which makes no sense. If I was going to house rule anything about drones, this would be it.

Edit 2: Bizarrely, commanding a drone also uses your own skills, so no, the RC Rigger is not cheaper to build than the Jumper Rigger

Edit 3: Jumper Rigger also wins out in the qualities department. More than Metahuman is a piddling 5bp quality which allows him to jump into, out of, or between drones with a free action. Drone going to get toasted? No problem, jump into it's buddy and continue to fire away like nothing happened! Conversely, the only quality I can see that would help the RC Rigger over the Jumper Rigger is Codeslinger, which gives him a + 2 to control drones at the cost of 10 bp - seeing as how a Control rig only costs 5bp (10k) the RC Rigger loses out here too.
Heath Robinson
Edit: What the hell, was I dreaming? I swear there was a post that I was responding to and now I can't see anything.
Jaid
1) gunnery is always a complex action anyways.

2) no, you don't get the reduced threshold for VR in remote control.

strictly speaking, however, rolling to dodge would arguably require that you sacrifice a complex action, since you need to control it to dodge, and controlling is always a complex action for the RC rigger. as such, the jumped-in rigger is much less likely to get hit.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ May 4 2009, 07:22 PM) *
Anyway, if I don't get any satisfactory answers for why remote-control >= jumped-in (or at least why I'm wrong!), then I know I'm house-ruling remote-controlled out of existence.


You can remote control multiple drones (to do the same action) as one command, IIRC.
Veggiesama
Okay, I'm noticing a lot of people are getting things wrong, so I tried to do my homework. Here's my attempt at a complete list of differences (all taken straight from the book), which will hopefully clear up misconceptions:

Issuing Commands
Rigger's action: Simple action per order, but only once needed.
Action happens: During drone's own action phase.
Drones at a time: Multiple (separate orders necessary, unless orders are identical).
Subscription needed: No.
Attribute: Pilot rating
Skill: Autosoft rating
Interface mode: AR or VR.
Vehicle Tests: No bonuses.
Matrix action bonus: No (issuing a command is a Matrix action, but the drone's actual action is not).
Control rig bonus: No.
Other limits: Pilot + Response needed for gray-area/convoluted orders.

Remote Control
Rigger's action: Always Complex, even for Simple actions, like shooting, taking aim, etc. Free actions appear to be exempted (Remote Control action).
Action happens: During rigger's action phase.
Drones at a time: One at a time.
Subscription needed: Yes.
Attribute: Rigger's Command program (or Sensor for Perception tests)
Skill: Rigger's own skill rating
Interface mode: AR or VR.
Vehicle Tests: -1 threshold in VR, or +1 bonus in AR.
Matrix action bonus: Yes (Control Device).
Control rig bonus: No.
Other limits: None.

Jumping In
Rigger's action: Simple Action to "Jump In". Otherwise as normal (firing a weapon system is Complex, anyway).
Action happens: During rigger's action phase.
Drones at a time: One at a time (can still issue commands to other drones, but cannot RC).
Subscription needed: Yes.
Attribute: Drone's Response (Agility/Reaction), or Sensor (Intuition)
Skill: Rigger's own skill rating
Interface mode: VR only.
Vehicle Tests: -1 threshold.
Matrix action bonus: Yes (All actions).
Control rig bonus: Yes (+2 to pilot, +2 to gunnery). Control rig boosters (up to +3 Pilot) also exist.
Other limits: Every time drone takes damage (hot sim), must resist half that amount (round up) in Stun with Willpower + Biofeedback Filter. Suffer dumpshock if drone is destroyed.

Error I found: Under the Control Device section, it says firing a drone-mounted rifle is a Longarms + Command test. Firing drone-mounted weapons is ALWAYS Gunnery + Sensor, except if you're a cyborg (Augmentation p160) or maybe just an anthroform drone.

Where I want to house rule
Calculating a Sensor rating is ridiculously, unnecessary complex (see Arsenal errata).
Malachi
QUOTE (Kerrang @ May 4 2009, 12:43 PM) *
In light of this, I am considering implementing a house rule here. The house rule will be very simple, it will utilize the Sensor Targeting rules already in place for the Gunnery skill. The character can use passive targeting and things will work exactly the same as on the Drone table mentioned above (Sensor + Gunnery). Alternately, they can use Active Targeting, and takes a Simple Action to use the drones sensors to lock on to the target, and any extra successes from this test can be used as additional dice for the subsequent normal Gunnery roll (Agility + Gunnery). No hits on this test, and you do not acquire your target.

I would say this is actually RAW, except that the subsequent Gunnery roll would still use Sensor in place of Agility. So, for Active Targeting you make your Sensor roll, then any hits on that test act as a bonus for any subsequent Sensor + Gunnery Tests rolls against that target. Pretty simple.

The debate on whether firing a vehicle weapon is ever a Simple Action has gone around a couple of times. I actually suggested that this be clarified during proofing of SR4A but I guess they didn't have time for that. So, what we're left with is some interpretation. First, we have this:
QUOTE (SR4A p. 171)
The rules for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted weapons. The
action required for shooting weapons depends on the mode fired, same
as with normal firearms, but in almost all cases vehicle weapons require
a Complex Action to fire. The Gunnery skill is used for vehiclemounted
weapons.


So, the text there implies that there are some situations where Gunnery is not a Complex Action and a single Burst or Shot can be fired with a Simple Action. The contradictions come, however, on page 148 where Fire Mounted or Vehicle Weapon is listed under Complex Actions and again on page 169 where Fire a Vehicle Weapon is listed, again, under Complex Actions. So, this would seem to imply that firing a Vehicle Weapon is always a Complex Action. However, it is never explicitly stated whether "Jumping In" changes this or not. However, under Jumping In we have this:
QUOTE (SR4A p. 245)
When jumped in, the rigger essentially “becomes� the drone, perceiving through its
sensors and operating it as if it were his own body.

So, if ever there was a situation where Gunnery was not a Complex Action, I would say that would be when the Rigger is Jumped In. So, I'm thinking that, given Veggiesama's accurate assessment, that a Jumped In Rigger should have a bit more of an edge over the RC Rigger and I'm thinking this is it. From a fluff standpoint it makes sense. The Control Rig interfaces with the Rigger's motor cortex translating what his/her body thinks is movement into vehicle actions. In all other cases, a person must work through some sort of "interface" be it electronic or mechanical (or a combination of both) in order to operate the vehicle weapon. It makes sense that this would be a Complex Action as instructions from the brain manipulate the interface, which then manipulates the device. In the case of the Jumped In rigger, those brain instructions go directly into operating the device. This should give the Control Rig user a slight but distinct advantage in speed.
Veggiesama
One problem I am seeing comes with Active Sensor Targeting. It takes a Simple action to initiate and gives you some bonus dice for your next test. But if all Gunnery tests are Complex Actions, then in every situation you have to wait until the next round before you can fire. Your only real choice is to take two Sensor test actions and then wait.

Contrast that to Take Aim (simple) + Burst/SA/SS (simple), which can be done each round.

I think it would be a very fair house rule (or at least "house clarification") to say that jumped-in riggers aren't limited by the Complex action rule, like Malachi implied.
Jaid
anthroform drones can use firearms skill when using handheld weapons (I believe it was clarified to be intended not just for cyborgs by one of the devs, iirc). when doing so, they are neither using a vehicle weapon nor are they using gunnery. therefore, they could use such weapons as a simple action.

also, issuing commands to drones requires a subscription. you can, however, subscribe multiple drones into one slot, provided you give them all the same command.
Octopiii
Nice catch on the Gunnery rule; for some reason I thought that the fluff description was a little more clear on the use of the gunnery skill while jumped in. Also, as Jaid said, Issuing Commands requires a subscription, but you can have all your drones in one subscription as long as you are issuing the same command. This comes in handy for the Sammy who wants to bring his own backup along. 3 Steel Lynxes firing full wide bursts, even with the drone's crappy DP, has a noticeable effect. Considering the cheapness of an out of the box Lynx (5k), there's no reason for Sammy's not to branch out into drone world (other than having to decipher the drone combat rules).

I would like to reiterate the real lack of scariness the biofeedback a jumped in rigger gets, as there seems to be an opinion that it's a major drawback. Response 4 + Dodge 4 (6) + Control Rig 2 + Hot Sim 2 is 14 dice to dodge; if they do manage to get more than ~5 hits, they need to have a modified damage higher than the drone's modified armor or it's ignored; which for a Steel Lynx is 9, requiring them to bring some serious armor piercing ammo or have a very good attack rol;. Next, the drone resists with Body + Armor, Steel Lynx: Body 4 + Armor 9. Then, half of that gets resisted by the Rigger: Willpower 5 + Biofeedback 5 + Hot Sim 2 + Codeslinger 2 (if you're really paranoid).

Anything that gets through those 4 steps is a bigger problem than dumpshock.

Electricity damage can be irritating, but with a Rigger built to do his job, it's not likely any attack will achieve enough hits for the secondary effects to occur.
mercurywave
You all are chatting about control rigs in bipedal drones, but would an AI inside an Otomo be able to use the rig attached to the CCU for the bonus? Im sure they would be able to use the +2 for the hot sim module, but what about the rig inside the drone as well...
Heath Robinson
VC Rigs map bits of your brain to various parts of the IO for your rigged Drone. AIs don't have a brain for the Rig to do that for.

Equally, the lack of a brain prevents gaining benefits from a Hot-capable Sim Module. AIs don't even use Sim.
Jhaiisiin
One thing I noticed as a difference regarding firing weapons mounted on a vehicle. There's a difference in the phrasing. One uses "vehicle weapons" (i.e. a rotary assault cannon) and the other uses "vehicle mounted weapons" (i.e. an SMG mounted to a small rotodrone). One is a specific category, the other is a catchall for any weapon mounted to it.

So vehicle weapons, due to their size and the fact that they're usually Full Auto or exceedingly large, require complex actions to use, regardless. But vehicle mounted weapons may or may not depending on the weapon.

Basically, a Vehicle Weapon is a vehicle mounted weapon, but not necessarily the other way around.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (mercurywave @ May 7 2009, 12:05 PM) *
You all are chatting about control rigs in bipedal drones, but would an AI inside an Otomo be able to use the rig attached to the CCU for the bonus? Im sure they would be able to use the +2 for the hot sim module, but what about the rig inside the drone as well...



My question is a simple one... Why is an AI using a CCU... thewre is absolutely noreason for the AI to use such a device as it HAS NOR MEAT BRAIN which is what the CCU is for... No Brain, No need for a CCU...

Without the need for a CCU, you save 250,000+ Nuyen as it would be completely useless for an AI... (all you need is the base Otomo drone at that point)

Just curious
mercurywave
The base Otomo comes with a CCU. (Pg 121 arsenal) states that as a standard upgrade the Otomo has "Cyborg Adaptation" in which a CCU is part of...thus no extra expenditure of 250,00Y

QUOTE
The CCU includes a control rig, a commlink with Firewall 4, Response 4, Signal 4, and System 4 (all upgradeable
as normal), and a hot-sim modifi ed sim module. A cybernetic skillwire system is also installed (see p. 160, Augmentation).


What I was suspecting was that since the comlink is where a AI would make its home node then it could possibly use the other gear in it as well..i.e. the control rig., but as Health stated no brain no connection...still as I've drawn up even without the control rig and the hot sim its still beneficial for a AI to rig an Otomo with Pilot Origins.
Jaid
QUOTE (mercurywave @ May 9 2009, 05:00 PM) *
The base Otomo comes with a CCU. (Pg 121 arsenal) states that as a standard upgrade the Otomo has "Cyborg Adaptation" in which a CCU is part of...thus no extra expenditure of 250,00Y



What I was suspecting was that since the comlink is where a AI would make its home node then it could possibly use the other gear in it as well..i.e. the control rig., but as Health stated no brain no connection...still as I've drawn up even without the control rig and the hot sim its still beneficial for a AI to rig an Otomo with Pilot Origins.

cyborg adaptation does not include a CCU. it includes a hole where you could put a CCU, and a port to connect the CCU to the drone. it also includes what are effectively skillwires for the vehicle. but it does not include an actual CCU.

you can tell this quite easily by examining the cost: a CCU costs 250,000 and is cyberware, costing almost all of the implantee's essence.

cyborg adaption costs 15,000 and is a vehicle mod, and costs 0 essence.

conclusion: they are not the same thing.
mercurywave
KK got it.
Falconer
Veggie:
Issuing commands through a 'trusted ID' is a good way to get yourself killed. User ID's are very easy for any other hacker to spoof. So, in practice, you'll always want to have any drones you're using subscribed and only accepting commands that way.


Jaid:
I don't buy it... unless they published it somewhere... it's always a complex action for a drone to fire. None of this simple shots loophole for them if they have arms and are wielding guns. (which also gets around the limitation on weapon mounts and frankly allows them to pickup and outfit anything). I don't care what any dev might have thought... unless it made it past the playtesters and into print, it doesn't exist.

Another way to explain this... a street sam is placing himself in some pretty high personal danger. A rigger is at FAR less personal peril, even jumped in. He gets a lot of IP's which the street sam has to pay 10x the cost of a drone to get. I don't see a balance issue in the least with them only firing on a complex action.


One thing: people are missing, simple action to jump into drone... another simple action to then do an active sensor lock, so on your next pass you'll potentially have extra dice on your gunnery test. There are a lot of usefull simple actions you can use. Including issuing commands to your other drones (just because you're rigging one... doesn't mean you can't be issuing orders to others). There's a reason it's commonly refered to as a 'drone swarm".
Jaid
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 9 2009, 10:05 PM) *
Jaid:
I don't buy it... unless they published it somewhere... it's always a complex action for a drone to fire. None of this simple shots loophole for them if they have arms and are wielding guns. (which also gets around the limitation on weapon mounts and frankly allows them to pickup and outfit anything). I don't care what any dev might have thought... unless it made it past the playtesters and into print, it doesn't exist.


look it up. it takes a complex action to use gunnery, or to use a vehicle mounted weapon. a weapon held in the hands of an anthroform humanoid drone is explicitly neither of those for a cyborg. the rules are silent on how you would handle that for a rigger, but as i said, i'm pretty sure i've heard the suggestion from the devs that they should use the same rules as cyborgs when they are in an anthroform drone.

so you can argue either way for a rigger... but for a cyborg, it is explicitly possible to fire a weapon with a simple action.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (mercurywave @ May 9 2009, 04:00 PM) *
The base Otomo comes with a CCU. (Pg 121 arsenal) states that as a standard upgrade the Otomo has "Cyborg Adaptation" in which a CCU is part of...thus no extra expenditure of 250,00Y



What I was suspecting was that since the comlink is where a AI would make its home node then it could possibly use the other gear in it as well..i.e. the control rig., but as Health stated no brain no connection...still as I've drawn up even without the control rig and the hot sim its still beneficial for a AI to rig an Otomo with Pilot Origins.



No... Actually what it says it that Cyborg Adaptation is standard (See Cyborg Adaptation description on Page 134 of Arsenal)... It is basically an advanced rigger module for cyborg integration... The CCU, however, is not standard... it is the "box" that the CCU would be installed into if added... Also, Fluff wise, it makes no sense to sell a Drone (base 150,000 Nuyen) with an equipment upgrade that costs 250,000+ Nuyen...

EDIT... Looks like Jaid beat me to it... Sorry...
Falconer
Okay, I could buy a cyborg... because the cyborg's physical form is at risk and directly present in the anthroform.

But I'd have issues w/ extending that same benefit to a rigger in the safety of his valkyrie module rigging caccoon god knows where.
Jaid
the cyborg's physical form is not really all that at-risk. nothing can target it until it's gotten through the drone anyways. until the drone is dead, it's no different from the rigger being outside except it can't be jammed.
Falconer
Yes, but once the drone goes down... the CCU is especially vulnerable. And anyone who knows the true nature and the CCU would be able to rip it out and smash it. A rigger in some vehicle miles away, and worst case unconscious in a valkyrie module on the way to his favorite street doc/safe house... he'll be back to fight again.

There should be a cost for any kind of remote control. And those who place themselves at higher risk should at least get a few benefits.
Jaid
a rigger in a van miles away is either an SR3 rigger, or it's a rigger who's looking to lose his drones. and when someone tracks his location (shouldn't be too hard, once they've swiped his drone(s) and dumpshocked him hard, they'll have his AID, and potentially who knows how much information about his regular hideouts etc... those drones have cameras, you know) he's pretty thoroughly screwed over.

the thing you seem to not understand is that the simple act of taking away the rigger's drone *hurts* quite a bit. sure, unmodified drones are cheap, but good drones are not, and unmodified/cheap drones are (unsurprisingly) not going to do nearly as well. the street sam will be looking to upgrade, odds are good that the long distance rigger (who won't be nearly as effective in SR4 at least as a close-up rigger) is going to be scrambling to get enough nuyen scraped together just to stay as well equipped as he started off. being away from your drones has it's own drawbacks, not the least of which is that you need to be able to get a signal to it, probably through various signal-blocking materials, and having that signal right out in the open means it's not gonna be long before security notices there's a signal blasting through their facility at maximum power. a quick radio signal scan tells them where your drones are, and therefore where your team is... how long you think you're gonna stay on a team with that kind of drawback? may as well just buy a big flashing neon sign that says "we are here" and go in guns blazing...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jaid @ May 9 2009, 11:42 PM) *
a rigger in a van miles away is either an SR3 rigger, or it's a rigger who's looking to lose his drones. and when someone tracks his location (shouldn't be too hard, once they've swiped his drone(s) and dumpshocked him hard, they'll have his AID, and potentially who knows how much information about his regular hideouts etc... those drones have cameras, you know) he's pretty thoroughly screwed over.

the thing you seem to not understand is that the simple act of taking away the rigger's drone *hurts* quite a bit. sure, unmodified drones are cheap, but good drones are not, and unmodified/cheap drones are (unsurprisingly) not going to do nearly as well. the street sam will be looking to upgrade, odds are good that the long distance rigger (who won't be nearly as effective in SR4 at least as a close-up rigger) is going to be scrambling to get enough nuyen scraped together just to stay as well equipped as he started off. being away from your drones has it's own drawbacks, not the least of which is that you need to be able to get a signal to it, probably through various signal-blocking materials, and having that signal right out in the open means it's not gonna be long before security notices there's a signal blasting through their facility at maximum power. a quick radio signal scan tells them where your drones are, and therefore where your team is... how long you think you're gonna stay on a team with that kind of drawback? may as well just buy a big flashing neon sign that says "we are here" and go in guns blazing...



Well Put... Keeping up with Drone capabilities/upgrades is extremely expensive for non-standard drones... Of course, you can always go out and steal someone else's drones, which has its drawbacks as well...

My Two Cents
Odsh
What if the rigger is a technomancer, who could use threading and registered sprites to raise his Command complex form to insane levels (without the optional rule that replaces program ratings with attributes of course)?
Falconer
So lets throw that argument in another light.

So Jaid, you're saying that any rigger who happens to get a cyberzombie shell... should be as effectual as the cyberzombie w/ no drawbacks. Despite only having maybe 1-2 essence worth of cyber himself and not needing to place himself in immediate danger in the drone. The only thing I could think the cyberzombie would add is the background count.

I'd say for consistencies sake... they'd continue to use gunnery as normal in that case.
Jaid
QUOTE (Odsh @ May 10 2009, 06:35 PM) *
What if the rigger is a technomancer, who could use threading and registered sprites to raise his Command complex form to insane levels (without the optional rule that replaces program ratings with attributes of course)?


well then he wouldn't be rigging anything, and the special rules for rigging humanoid drones would kinda not apply just a little bit wink.gif

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 10 2009, 07:55 PM) *
So lets throw that argument in another light.

So Jaid, you're saying that any rigger who happens to get a cyberzombie shell... should be as effectual as the cyberzombie w/ no drawbacks. Despite only having maybe 1-2 essence worth of cyber himself and not needing to place himself in immediate danger in the drone. The only thing I could think the cyberzombie would add is the background count.

I'd say for consistencies sake... they'd continue to use gunnery as normal in that case.


you can't rig a cyberzombie shell. in point of fact, there is no such thing as a cyberzombie shell. cyberzombies are people who have received enough implants to knock them below 0 essence, but have been forced into a state of "mostly dead" instead of all dead. they don't wear shells. i suppose you could argue that if you were to give one some really nice SOTA heavy military armor, that would be kind of like a shell. but it wouldn't be rigged, and the rules for rigging would still be completely irrelevant.

cyborgs, which are what you'll find using the rigging rules at all, do indeed have 250k nuyen and close to 6 essence worth of upgrades. in order to fully duplicate all of those upgrades, iirc it's about 160k nuyen and around 3 essence (it's been a while since i added up all the costs, tbh). in addition, cyborgs get the benefit that you can't jam them, they don't require air, don't require food, require limited sleep, etc, compared to a regular rigger.

and for the record, yes, i really do think that a rigger losing 150,000 nuyen worth of hardware is a crippling blow that the rigger will likely never recover from. you don't just go buy yourself a new otomo, not even an unmodified one (let alone an otomo that actually is modded up enough to be a really effective drone). never mind the other 2 types of humanoid drones, which cost even more. i suppose you could use a manservant drone, but seriously... have you looked at the stats on that thing? even then, a manservant modded up to be usable for combat at all is going to cost you a fair bit.

in short, if the street sam takes 10P damage, you can heal them. when they recover, they will still have all their gear. if they lose a gun, they can pick on up from the next security guard they kill, or buy one for cheap. their cyber is still in them, functioning at full capacity.

if you lose an otomo, that's 150k+ nuyen gone. you're never getting that drone back. it's gone. forget it ever existed. and depending on what data is in that drone, you may lose more; contacts, safehouses, drone repair facilities, etc. it doesn't much matter if you're a drone rigger or a cyborg, because you probably just lost your main investment. it's like pointing at the street sam and telling him he's losing his wired reflexes; he can still function, but it will be at a pale shadow of his prior performance. we are talking about 30 BP there, assuming a completely unmodded otomo. it is not a small thing to lose a key piece of equipment when you are a rigger, particularly one as irreplaceable as an otomo... you aren't going to steel one by hacking, the availability is sky-high, and the cost is prohibitive.
Odsh
QUOTE (Jaid @ May 10 2009, 07:18 PM) *
well then he wouldn't be rigging anything, and the special rules for rigging humanoid drones would kinda not apply just a little bit wink.gif


Sorry, but I'm not sure I'm following you.

Do you mean a technomancer can't jump into a drone? Why? Is it because of that incorrect description of the control rig implant (which, if I remember correctly, has been corrected in SR4A)?

As for the humanoid drones... well he doesn't have to use one of those, does he?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
If you are going to follow that line, please compare Apples to Apples...

The diuscussion was in comparison of a Cyborg or Rigging a Humanoid Drone... Of which the Otomo is the premier (and is generally far cheaper, even highly modded for combat, than the CCU required for a Full Blown Cyborg)

Now sure, you could use far cheaper drones, but then, even acceptable ones for combat cost a fair bit over 10k Nuyen and are very hard to replace when you have a team of 4-6 runners, even if you have fairly large paydays exceeding 100k...

As an example, say you lose 2 drones in the combat (not unreasonable, had this happen a time or two over the years), and you have a team of 5 splitting 100,000 Nuyen... you are then only able to replace a single drone (probably costing around 12k), and possible acquire a little more gear... over time, you will be reduced to very few drones of any significance... as a result, you are not willing to risk your drone network at all for fear of losing that expensive equipment, or you buy baseline drones and watch them get destroyed like popcorn...

You could always take your replacement costs from the payday before split, but that will, over time, probably annoy those who need the money for their own personal upgrade options ...

Running a Competent Rigger is difficult, but well worth it in the long run... they give options to the team that you might not otherwise have... I know in some of the last games that I was playing, the Drones were indispensible to the run... If you lose one, well that is the price you pay for that capability...

It is a tough choice...
Falconer
In my experience... the best riggers don't just buy their own stuff. Yeah you have a few tricked out pet drones... but you also collect a stable of expendables.

I see your point on the money. (in fact, I made a rigger w/ the full monty 30point in-debt just to gimp him on the cash flow problem!). I do understand that problem on top of SOTA costs for keeping your cracked software up to date. (SOTA really is pretty easy when you just work it in as part of the monthly cost of living).

But you're forgetting that riggers also steal a lot of gear. One of the best ways to collect expendable drones is to steal them. Generally you don't buy one of those super expensive drones... you locate one... then you go out on a run and steal it. (sorta like aircraft pilots)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 10 2009, 08:09 PM) *
In my experience... the best riggers don't just buy their own stuff. Yeah you have a few tricked out pet drones... but you also collect a stable of expendables.

I see your point on the money. (in fact, I made a rigger w/ the full monty 30point in-debt just to gimp him on the cash flow problem!). I do understand that problem on top of SOTA costs for keeping your cracked software up to date. (SOTA really is pretty easy when you just work it in as part of the monthly cost of living).

But you're forgetting that riggers also steal a lot of gear. One of the best ways to collect expendable drones is to steal them. Generally you don't buy one of those super expensive drones... you locate one... then you go out on a run and steal it. (sorta like aircraft pilots)


Actually, I was not forgetting that fact (stealing drones), I just do not do it on a too constant basis so that I stay under the radar... You could also make your own (as long as they are pretty standard) assuming that you have at least a shop...

Our team has acquired several drones and at least on or two vehicles with this very tactic... thoguh I tend to use the stolen vehicles and then discard them when they become a liability... I may not be able to BUY a DocWagon HRT Helicopter, but stealing them works wonders, and you are not too upset when they are destroyed or recaptured in the end...
Jaid
QUOTE (Odsh @ May 10 2009, 07:35 PM) *
Sorry, but I'm not sure I'm following you.

Do you mean a technomancer can't jump into a drone? Why? Is it because of that incorrect description of the control rig implant (which, if I remember correctly, has been corrected in SR4A)?

As for the humanoid drones... well he doesn't have to use one of those, does he?


you brought up technomancers using command CF. command CF is incompatible with control rig. therefore, a technomancer is not an applicable example in this case, because we are discussing special rules for rigging (which do not apply to other forms of vehicle control, one of which happens to use the command program/CF... and is completely separate from rigging)

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 10 2009, 10:09 PM) *
In my experience... the best riggers don't just buy their own stuff. Yeah you have a few tricked out pet drones... but you also collect a stable of expendables.

I see your point on the money. (in fact, I made a rigger w/ the full monty 30point in-debt just to gimp him on the cash flow problem!). I do understand that problem on top of SOTA costs for keeping your cracked software up to date. (SOTA really is pretty easy when you just work it in as part of the monthly cost of living).

But you're forgetting that riggers also steal a lot of gear. One of the best ways to collect expendable drones is to steal them. Generally you don't buy one of those super expensive drones... you locate one... then you go out on a run and steal it. (sorta like aircraft pilots)

can only steal so much. and breaking into an otomo factory isn't exactly going to be easy... it's definitely not a trivial task. assuming you can even do it, you're probably going to have to pay the rest of your shadowrunning team (or where you planning on doing this solo? hope everything goes well, or you just wound up with even more lost drones which you can't recover). after all, your team may break into places and steal stuff with you, but they do so for money. no money, no shadowrun. if you want to break into the otomo factory and get yourself half a dozen otomos, odds are good you're gonna have to sell 5 of them just to pay your team (they know exactly how much you're getting out of this, and have you at a disadvantage), not to mention you still have to mod it up requiring time and money, plus you gotta pay the bills (and sadly, you had to spend all your money on getting your drone back, so now you have to go on a shadowrun to pay the bills, and you don't have the creds to pay for the gear you need that you lost on the previous shadowrun...)

Odsh
QUOTE (Jaid @ May 11 2009, 11:44 AM) *
you brought up technomancers using command CF. command CF is incompatible with control rig. therefore, a technomancer is not an applicable example in this case, because we are discussing special rules for rigging (which do not apply to other forms of vehicle control, one of which happens to use the command program/CF... and is completely separate from rigging)


It is completely separate from rigging, but part of the original discussion is precisely about comparing rigging to remote control (with help of the command program). I was actually responding to that, sorry for the misunderstanding.
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