Control rigs Options

[mercurywave]

You all are chatting about control rigs in bipedal drones, but would an AI inside an Otomo be able to use the rig attached to the CCU for the bonus? Im sure they would be able to use the +2 for the hot sim module, but what about the rig inside the drone as well...

[Heath Robinson]

VC Rigs map bits of your brain to various parts of the IO for your rigged Drone. AIs don't have a brain for the Rig to do that for.

Equally, the lack of a brain prevents gaining benefits from a Hot-capable Sim Module. AIs don't even use Sim.

[Jhaiisiin]

One thing I noticed as a difference regarding firing weapons mounted on a vehicle. There's a difference in the phrasing. One uses "vehicle weapons" (i.e. a rotary assault cannon) and the other uses "vehicle mounted weapons" (i.e. an SMG mounted to a small rotodrone). One is a specific category, the other is a catchall for any weapon mounted to it.

So vehicle weapons, due to their size and the fact that they're usually Full Auto or exceedingly large, require complex actions to use, regardless. But vehicle mounted weapons may or may not depending on the weapon.

Basically, a Vehicle Weapon is a vehicle mounted weapon, but not necessarily the other way around.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You all are chatting about control rigs in bipedal drones, but would an AI inside an Otomo be able to use the rig attached to the CCU for the bonus? Im sure they would be able to use the +2 for the hot sim module, but what about the rig inside the drone as well...

My question is a simple one... Why is an AI using a CCU... thewre is absolutely noreason for the AI to use such a device as it HAS NOR MEAT BRAIN which is what the CCU is for... No Brain, No need for a CCU...

Without the need for a CCU, you save 250,000+ Nuyen as it would be completely useless for an AI... (all you need is the base Otomo drone at that point)

Just curious

[mercurywave]

The base Otomo comes with a CCU. (Pg 121 arsenal) states that as a standard upgrade the Otomo has "Cyborg Adaptation" in which a CCU is part of...thus no extra expenditure of 250,00Y

The CCU includes a control rig, a commlink with Firewall 4, Response 4, Signal 4, and System 4 (all upgradeable
as normal), and a hot-sim modifi ed sim module. A cybernetic skillwire system is also installed (see p. 160, Augmentation).

What I was suspecting was that since the comlink is where a AI would make its home node then it could possibly use the other gear in it as well..i.e. the control rig., but as Health stated no brain no connection...still as I've drawn up even without the control rig and the hot sim its still beneficial for a AI to rig an Otomo with Pilot Origins.

[Jaid]

The base Otomo comes with a CCU. (Pg 121 arsenal) states that as a standard upgrade the Otomo has "Cyborg Adaptation" in which a CCU is part of...thus no extra expenditure of 250,00Y



What I was suspecting was that since the comlink is where a AI would make its home node then it could possibly use the other gear in it as well..i.e. the control rig., but as Health stated no brain no connection...still as I've drawn up even without the control rig and the hot sim its still beneficial for a AI to rig an Otomo with Pilot Origins.

cyborg adaptation does not include a CCU. it includes a hole where you could put a CCU, and a port to connect the CCU to the drone. it also includes what are effectively skillwires for the vehicle. but it does not include an actual CCU.

you can tell this quite easily by examining the cost: a CCU costs 250,000 and is cyberware, costing almost all of the implantee's essence.

cyborg adaption costs 15,000 and is a vehicle mod, and costs 0 essence.

conclusion: they are not the same thing.

[mercurywave]

KK got it.

[Falconer]

Veggie:
Issuing commands through a 'trusted ID' is a good way to get yourself killed. User ID's are very easy for any other hacker to spoof. So, in practice, you'll always want to have any drones you're using subscribed and only accepting commands that way.


Jaid:
I don't buy it... unless they published it somewhere... it's always a complex action for a drone to fire. None of this simple shots loophole for them if they have arms and are wielding guns. (which also gets around the limitation on weapon mounts and frankly allows them to pickup and outfit anything). I don't care what any dev might have thought... unless it made it past the playtesters and into print, it doesn't exist.

Another way to explain this... a street sam is placing himself in some pretty high personal danger. A rigger is at FAR less personal peril, even jumped in. He gets a lot of IP's which the street sam has to pay 10x the cost of a drone to get. I don't see a balance issue in the least with them only firing on a complex action.


One thing: people are missing, simple action to jump into drone... another simple action to then do an active sensor lock, so on your next pass you'll potentially have extra dice on your gunnery test. There are a lot of usefull simple actions you can use. Including issuing commands to your other drones (just because you're rigging one... doesn't mean you can't be issuing orders to others). There's a reason it's commonly refered to as a 'drone swarm".

[Jaid]

Jaid:
I don't buy it... unless they published it somewhere... it's always a complex action for a drone to fire. None of this simple shots loophole for them if they have arms and are wielding guns. (which also gets around the limitation on weapon mounts and frankly allows them to pickup and outfit anything). I don't care what any dev might have thought... unless it made it past the playtesters and into print, it doesn't exist.

look it up. it takes a complex action to use gunnery, or to use a vehicle mounted weapon. a weapon held in the hands of an anthroform humanoid drone is explicitly neither of those for a cyborg. the rules are silent on how you would handle that for a rigger, but as i said, i'm pretty sure i've heard the suggestion from the devs that they should use the same rules as cyborgs when they are in an anthroform drone.

so you can argue either way for a rigger... but for a cyborg, it is explicitly possible to fire a weapon with a simple action.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The base Otomo comes with a CCU. (Pg 121 arsenal) states that as a standard upgrade the Otomo has "Cyborg Adaptation" in which a CCU is part of...thus no extra expenditure of 250,00Y



What I was suspecting was that since the comlink is where a AI would make its home node then it could possibly use the other gear in it as well..i.e. the control rig., but as Health stated no brain no connection...still as I've drawn up even without the control rig and the hot sim its still beneficial for a AI to rig an Otomo with Pilot Origins.

No... Actually what it says it that Cyborg Adaptation is standard (See Cyborg Adaptation description on Page 134 of Arsenal)... It is basically an advanced rigger module for cyborg integration... The CCU, however, is not standard... it is the "box" that the CCU would be installed into if added... Also, Fluff wise, it makes no sense to sell a Drone (base 150,000 Nuyen) with an equipment upgrade that costs 250,000+ Nuyen...

EDIT... Looks like Jaid beat me to it... Sorry...

[Falconer]

Okay, I could buy a cyborg... because the cyborg's physical form is at risk and directly present in the anthroform.

But I'd have issues w/ extending that same benefit to a rigger in the safety of his valkyrie module rigging caccoon god knows where.

[Jaid]

the cyborg's physical form is not really all that at-risk. nothing can target it until it's gotten through the drone anyways. until the drone is dead, it's no different from the rigger being outside except it can't be jammed.

[Falconer]

Yes, but once the drone goes down... the CCU is especially vulnerable. And anyone who knows the true nature and the CCU would be able to rip it out and smash it. A rigger in some vehicle miles away, and worst case unconscious in a valkyrie module on the way to his favorite street doc/safe house... he'll be back to fight again.

There should be a cost for any kind of remote control. And those who place themselves at higher risk should at least get a few benefits.

[Jaid]

a rigger in a van miles away is either an SR3 rigger, or it's a rigger who's looking to lose his drones. and when someone tracks his location (shouldn't be too hard, once they've swiped his drone(s) and dumpshocked him hard, they'll have his AID, and potentially who knows how much information about his regular hideouts etc... those drones have cameras, you know) he's pretty thoroughly screwed over.

the thing you seem to not understand is that the simple act of taking away the rigger's drone *hurts* quite a bit. sure, unmodified drones are cheap, but good drones are not, and unmodified/cheap drones are (unsurprisingly) not going to do nearly as well. the street sam will be looking to upgrade, odds are good that the long distance rigger (who won't be nearly as effective in SR4 at least as a close-up rigger) is going to be scrambling to get enough nuyen scraped together just to stay as well equipped as he started off. being away from your drones has it's own drawbacks, not the least of which is that you need to be able to get a signal to it, probably through various signal-blocking materials, and having that signal right out in the open means it's not gonna be long before security notices there's a signal blasting through their facility at maximum power. a quick radio signal scan tells them where your drones are, and therefore where your team is... how long you think you're gonna stay on a team with that kind of drawback? may as well just buy a big flashing neon sign that says "we are here" and go in guns blazing...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

a rigger in a van miles away is either an SR3 rigger, or it's a rigger who's looking to lose his drones. and when someone tracks his location (shouldn't be too hard, once they've swiped his drone(s) and dumpshocked him hard, they'll have his AID, and potentially who knows how much information about his regular hideouts etc... those drones have cameras, you know) he's pretty thoroughly screwed over.

the thing you seem to not understand is that the simple act of taking away the rigger's drone *hurts* quite a bit. sure, unmodified drones are cheap, but good drones are not, and unmodified/cheap drones are (unsurprisingly) not going to do nearly as well. the street sam will be looking to upgrade, odds are good that the long distance rigger (who won't be nearly as effective in SR4 at least as a close-up rigger) is going to be scrambling to get enough nuyen scraped together just to stay as well equipped as he started off. being away from your drones has it's own drawbacks, not the least of which is that you need to be able to get a signal to it, probably through various signal-blocking materials, and having that signal right out in the open means it's not gonna be long before security notices there's a signal blasting through their facility at maximum power. a quick radio signal scan tells them where your drones are, and therefore where your team is... how long you think you're gonna stay on a team with that kind of drawback? may as well just buy a big flashing neon sign that says "we are here" and go in guns blazing...

Well Put... Keeping up with Drone capabilities/upgrades is extremely expensive for non-standard drones... Of course, you can always go out and steal someone else's drones, which has its drawbacks as well...

My Two Cents

[Odsh]

What if the rigger is a technomancer, who could use threading and registered sprites to raise his Command complex form to insane levels (without the optional rule that replaces program ratings with attributes of course)?

[Falconer]

So lets throw that argument in another light.

So Jaid, you're saying that any rigger who happens to get a cyberzombie shell... should be as effectual as the cyberzombie w/ no drawbacks. Despite only having maybe 1-2 essence worth of cyber himself and not needing to place himself in immediate danger in the drone. The only thing I could think the cyberzombie would add is the background count.

I'd say for consistencies sake... they'd continue to use gunnery as normal in that case.

[Jaid]

What if the rigger is a technomancer, who could use threading and registered sprites to raise his Command complex form to insane levels (without the optional rule that replaces program ratings with attributes of course)?

well then he wouldn't be rigging anything, and the special rules for rigging humanoid drones would kinda not apply just a little bit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So lets throw that argument in another light.

So Jaid, you're saying that any rigger who happens to get a cyberzombie shell... should be as effectual as the cyberzombie w/ no drawbacks. Despite only having maybe 1-2 essence worth of cyber himself and not needing to place himself in immediate danger in the drone. The only thing I could think the cyberzombie would add is the background count.

I'd say for consistencies sake... they'd continue to use gunnery as normal in that case.

you can't rig a cyberzombie shell. in point of fact, there is no such thing as a cyberzombie shell. cyberzombies are people who have received enough implants to knock them below 0 essence, but have been forced into a state of "mostly dead" instead of all dead. they don't wear shells. i suppose you could argue that if you were to give one some really nice SOTA heavy military armor, that would be kind of like a shell. but it wouldn't be rigged, and the rules for rigging would still be completely irrelevant.

cyborgs, which are what you'll find using the rigging rules at all, do indeed have 250k nuyen and close to 6 essence worth of upgrades. in order to fully duplicate all of those upgrades, iirc it's about 160k nuyen and around 3 essence (it's been a while since i added up all the costs, tbh). in addition, cyborgs get the benefit that you can't jam them, they don't require air, don't require food, require limited sleep, etc, compared to a regular rigger.

and for the record, yes, i really do think that a rigger losing 150,000 nuyen worth of hardware is a crippling blow that the rigger will likely never recover from. you don't just go buy yourself a new otomo, not even an unmodified one (let alone an otomo that actually is modded up enough to be a really effective drone). never mind the other 2 types of humanoid drones, which cost even more. i suppose you could use a manservant drone, but seriously... have you looked at the stats on that thing? even then, a manservant modded up to be usable for combat at all is going to cost you a fair bit.

in short, if the street sam takes 10P damage, you can heal them. when they recover, they will still have all their gear. if they lose a gun, they can pick on up from the next security guard they kill, or buy one for cheap. their cyber is still in them, functioning at full capacity.

if you lose an otomo, that's 150k+ nuyen gone. you're never getting that drone back. it's gone. forget it ever existed. and depending on what data is in that drone, you may lose more; contacts, safehouses, drone repair facilities, etc. it doesn't much matter if you're a drone rigger or a cyborg, because you probably just lost your main investment. it's like pointing at the street sam and telling him he's losing his wired reflexes; he can still function, but it will be at a pale shadow of his prior performance. we are talking about 30 BP there, assuming a completely unmodded otomo. it is not a small thing to lose a key piece of equipment when you are a rigger, particularly one as irreplaceable as an otomo... you aren't going to steel one by hacking, the availability is sky-high, and the cost is prohibitive.

[Odsh]

well then he wouldn't be rigging anything, and the special rules for rigging humanoid drones would kinda not apply just a little bit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Sorry, but I'm not sure I'm following you.

Do you mean a technomancer can't jump into a drone? Why? Is it because of that incorrect description of the control rig implant (which, if I remember correctly, has been corrected in SR4A)?

As for the humanoid drones... well he doesn't have to use one of those, does he?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you are going to follow that line, please compare Apples to Apples...

The diuscussion was in comparison of a Cyborg or Rigging a Humanoid Drone... Of which the Otomo is the premier (and is generally far cheaper, even highly modded for combat, than the CCU required for a Full Blown Cyborg)

Now sure, you could use far cheaper drones, but then, even acceptable ones for combat cost a fair bit over 10k Nuyen and are very hard to replace when you have a team of 4-6 runners, even if you have fairly large paydays exceeding 100k...

As an example, say you lose 2 drones in the combat (not unreasonable, had this happen a time or two over the years), and you have a team of 5 splitting 100,000 Nuyen... you are then only able to replace a single drone (probably costing around 12k), and possible acquire a little more gear... over time, you will be reduced to very few drones of any significance... as a result, you are not willing to risk your drone network at all for fear of losing that expensive equipment, or you buy baseline drones and watch them get destroyed like popcorn...

You could always take your replacement costs from the payday before split, but that will, over time, probably annoy those who need the money for their own personal upgrade options ...

Running a Competent Rigger is difficult, but well worth it in the long run... they give options to the team that you might not otherwise have... I know in some of the last games that I was playing, the Drones were indispensible to the run... If you lose one, well that is the price you pay for that capability...

It is a tough choice...

[Falconer]

In my experience... the best riggers don't just buy their own stuff. Yeah you have a few tricked out pet drones... but you also collect a stable of expendables.

I see your point on the money. (in fact, I made a rigger w/ the full monty 30point in-debt just to gimp him on the cash flow problem!). I do understand that problem on top of SOTA costs for keeping your cracked software up to date. (SOTA really is pretty easy when you just work it in as part of the monthly cost of living).

But you're forgetting that riggers also steal a lot of gear. One of the best ways to collect expendable drones is to steal them. Generally you don't buy one of those super expensive drones... you locate one... then you go out on a run and steal it. (sorta like aircraft pilots)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In my experience... the best riggers don't just buy their own stuff. Yeah you have a few tricked out pet drones... but you also collect a stable of expendables.

I see your point on the money. (in fact, I made a rigger w/ the full monty 30point in-debt just to gimp him on the cash flow problem!). I do understand that problem on top of SOTA costs for keeping your cracked software up to date. (SOTA really is pretty easy when you just work it in as part of the monthly cost of living).

But you're forgetting that riggers also steal a lot of gear. One of the best ways to collect expendable drones is to steal them. Generally you don't buy one of those super expensive drones... you locate one... then you go out on a run and steal it. (sorta like aircraft pilots)

Actually, I was not forgetting that fact (stealing drones), I just do not do it on a too constant basis so that I stay under the radar... You could also make your own (as long as they are pretty standard) assuming that you have at least a shop...

Our team has acquired several drones and at least on or two vehicles with this very tactic... thoguh I tend to use the stolen vehicles and then discard them when they become a liability... I may not be able to BUY a DocWagon HRT Helicopter, but stealing them works wonders, and you are not too upset when they are destroyed or recaptured in the end...

[Jaid]

Sorry, but I'm not sure I'm following you.

Do you mean a technomancer can't jump into a drone? Why? Is it because of that incorrect description of the control rig implant (which, if I remember correctly, has been corrected in SR4A)?

As for the humanoid drones... well he doesn't have to use one of those, does he?

you brought up technomancers using command CF. command CF is incompatible with control rig. therefore, a technomancer is not an applicable example in this case, because we are discussing special rules for rigging (which do not apply to other forms of vehicle control, one of which happens to use the command program/CF... and is completely separate from rigging)

In my experience... the best riggers don't just buy their own stuff. Yeah you have a few tricked out pet drones... but you also collect a stable of expendables.

I see your point on the money. (in fact, I made a rigger w/ the full monty 30point in-debt just to gimp him on the cash flow problem!). I do understand that problem on top of SOTA costs for keeping your cracked software up to date. (SOTA really is pretty easy when you just work it in as part of the monthly cost of living).

But you're forgetting that riggers also steal a lot of gear. One of the best ways to collect expendable drones is to steal them. Generally you don't buy one of those super expensive drones... you locate one... then you go out on a run and steal it. (sorta like aircraft pilots)

can only steal so much. and breaking into an otomo factory isn't exactly going to be easy... it's definitely not a trivial task. assuming you can even do it, you're probably going to have to pay the rest of your shadowrunning team (or where you planning on doing this solo? hope everything goes well, or you just wound up with even more lost drones which you can't recover). after all, your team may break into places and steal stuff with you, but they do so for money. no money, no shadowrun. if you want to break into the otomo factory and get yourself half a dozen otomos, odds are good you're gonna have to sell 5 of them just to pay your team (they know exactly how much you're getting out of this, and have you at a disadvantage), not to mention you still have to mod it up requiring time and money, plus you gotta pay the bills (and sadly, you had to spend all your money on getting your drone back, so now you have to go on a shadowrun to pay the bills, and you don't have the creds to pay for the gear you need that you lost on the previous shadowrun...)

[Odsh]

you brought up technomancers using command CF. command CF is incompatible with control rig. therefore, a technomancer is not an applicable example in this case, because we are discussing special rules for rigging (which do not apply to other forms of vehicle control, one of which happens to use the command program/CF... and is completely separate from rigging)

It is completely separate from rigging, but part of the original discussion is precisely about comparing rigging to remote control (with help of the command program). I was actually responding to that, sorry for the misunderstanding.