Limiting Control Thoughts/Mob Mind, Any ideas? Options

[Kerrang]

The Mage in the SR4 campaign I am running is kind of ruining the game experience for other characters in many ways with extensive use of Control Thoughts/Mob Mind. It seems that every encounter or situation they run in to, these spells can be used with near impunity to remove the threat. Obviously, throwing an opposing Mage into each encounter would help to mitigate the issue, but there are many situations where it just does not make sense for a Mage to be in the opposition. In particular, the current missions I have been running deal with alot of gang activity, and it just does not fit for a Mage to be hanging around with these gang-bangers.

I don't want to eliminate these spells altogether, having already let the genie out of the bottle, but does anyone have any ideas on how they can be reigned in a bit?

[Draco18s]

By RAW the subject(s) make Willpower rolls every [Force] combat rounds, hits are cumulative to all checks previously made.

So in combat Control Actions is still pretty powerful, but outside of combat you can't maintain your control over someone for any longer than about 2 minutes (Force 4 * 3 seconds = 12 seconds per roll, 4 hits / 3 willpower average = 4 checks = 1 initial + 3 * Dur = 36 seconds).

Beyond that you can include DP modifiers for forcing the target to do something they wouldn't normally do (such as shooting themselves: +9 dice, shooting a friend/coworker: +5 dice or whatever).

[Stahlseele]

Use Background-Count.
especially if it's mobs, they create their own background count.
or if you don't want a mage in there, use someone with arcane arrester.
or the natural background count.
or someone who is just too damn headstrong for his own good.
dwarves or something like that.
In BIGGER Mobs or crowds, use more than one of these.
And it does not have to be a FULL mage to get dispelling or anti magic guard or whatever.

[Jaid]

one interpretation is that you cast the spell, and don't get to give orders (ie the targets are unaffected) until you spend your next action controlling them.

another possibility is that mind controllers aren't possible. have the group's contacts start drying up, especially the mage's. they can lose loyalty rating, and even give information to any enemies the mage may make (which will likely be a lot, considering how violated his victims are going to feel). nothing says "tone it down a little" like a grenade stuffed inside your mattress...

[DireRadiant]

How would people react to a mage going around fireballing every one? The end result is not much different for the gangers, they got neutralized. But how do all the people the mage associates or deals with react? In fact, in some ways the standard reaction might be even worse. Everyone can be shot or suffer violence from any other person, but it takes a special threat to destroy a person's sense of self and make them act against their will.

Fireball is direct and flashily effective, what are the consequences?
Mob Mind is possibly less direct, and effective, what are the consequences?
A barrage of grenades is direct and flashily effective, what are the consequences?

You may consider your own personal reaction to the Mob Mind versus the Fireball and grenades scenarios, and have the consequences reflect that.

Grenades are available option for everyone, and are just as mechanically effective as the fireball or mob mind spell, but something about that mind control just gets to people. Use it, there are consequences, apply them.

[Warlordtheft]

And that goes back to one of the rules in the SR universe...GEEK THE MAGE!

The mage is suposedly controlling the gangers via control thought or MOB mind. When attacking are the gangers spread out? Are they noticng who the Mage is.

If the mage is making the leader say "these are not the runners we are looking for". Know that after the PC's drop the spell, the gangers might do a double take if they were sent to go after them specifically and set up a better ambush. If it was a random act of violence on their part, you'll have tonsider how his buddies feel about it (since it would seem pretty strange that he said attack one minute, and wait these are our friends the next).

[kzt]

Ban them. They are overpowered and overpowering.

If they object remember that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. After the sami shoots the mage in the back of the head with an HE mini-grenade they may reconsider their objections.

[Murrdox]

I suppose it really depends on your campaign and the contexts that he's using it in.

Options I would use:

- All that mental control leaves a big astral footprint. Anyone tracking the astral signature of your group's Mage is going to have an easy time of it. He soon could find himself being observed astrally by spirits or watchers.

- People don't like having their thoughts controlled. It's one of the reasons people are afraid of the Awakened. Look at Charles Xavier. People are scared crazy of him because of his mind-reading abilities. If word gets out on the street that your Mage is breaking into the mind of anyone he runs into, he's going to get a bad reputation built up fast. The rest of your shadowrunner group will be guilty by association. Contacts might stop returning emails, the runners might get kicked out of the best clubs in Seattle. Any corp or gang who thinks they're going to run into him might be prepared.

- A free-spirit might decide that he's causing too much trouble in the awakened world, and teach him a lesson to not abuse his mind powers.

- I don't remember the full list of drugs out there right now, but maybe introduce various drugs which increase Willpower. Those who operate in his area might keep some on hand if they know about him.

- The group has called a little bit too much attention to itself by using so much mental control. Mr. Johnson's client has found out about it and isn't happy. He lets Mr. Johnson know that he better make sure the "assets" that he's hired maintain a low profile. If their work gets traced back to him the payout for the job might not meet expectations.

[eudemonist]

Increase the drain?

[Kerrang]

Thanks for the good replies so far, as I noted in the OP, I don't have a desire to remove these spells entirely. They are a part of the SR universe that has been around for a while, I just don't remembering them being this overpowered in previous editions (it doesn't help that the Mage in this group is a min/maxer). The problem is that they are being used in just about every conceivable situation, it is like the Mage's first thought every time a situation comes up is "how can I use Control Thoughts/Mob Mind in this instance?", and the other players sit around doing almost nothing because the Mage already has it under control. In the last gaming session, the other players even noted their frustration and mentioned that they were afraid I would start using Control Thoughts against them to even the playing field. The Mage was nonplussed by this, detailing how many dice he could use in counterspelling to protect them.

Now, I have gone an record as being the anti-power gaming GM, and my group is well aware of my dislike of min/maxing. Straight up, this Mage will die soon if the status quo does not change, and that may be the only thing I have to do to get things back on a more balanced keel. I think I am going to put some of your suggestions to use, however, to keep this from being an issue in the future

I have not used Background Count much in the past, and have not used it at all in 4ed, so I am intrigued by this possibility, best start brushing up on it, Street Magic here I come. Fortunately, or unfortunately as the case may be, the Mage is sensible enough not to use these spells on his contacts, or Mr. Johnson. He only uses them against enemies, and from the point of view of those offering the jobs, he gets things done, so I am not sure about dropping loyalty ratings or cutting job payouts. I will certainly keep this in mind, though, in case I do see situations where using these spells would increase attention on the runners.

I do like the idea of the large Astral footprint leading heavy hitters back to his doorstep, or Free Spirits showing up to teach him a lesson, both of which could directly lead to the death of the Mage and fulfill plans in that regard. Also, given the current situation involving a lot of gang activity, I am thinking that the gangers will frequently be using willpower enhancing drugs.

[Heath Robinson]

- I don't remember the full list of drugs out there right now, but maybe introduce various drugs which increase Willpower. Those who operate in his area might keep some on hand if they know about him.

Costs and availabilities of existing drugs that enhance Willpower.

• Kamikaze - 100 / 4R
• Nitro - 50 / 2R
• Zen - 5 / 4R
• Hurlg - 5 / -
• K10 - 900 / 16F
• Red Mescaline - 50 / 4R

[kzt]

You could have a gang with a free spirit hanging out or a guardian with heavy counterspell. If it adds 6 dice many of them will resist against a typical roll. A spirit will actually see the spell and can directly deal with the mage. Or just use influence on the sami and suggest that he shoot the mage in the head. (Sadly the mage will find that counterspell doesn't work on critter powers.)

But the mind control spells are the "I Win" button in SR, so it's going to be hard to convince a player who found it to stop. It's easier when they are also on the receiving side, as the average PC is not significantly tougher than the gangers against these spells.

[Zaranthan]

I have not used Background Count much in the past, and have not used it at all in 4ed, so I am intrigued by this possibility, best start brushing up on it, Street Magic here I come.

Forgetting about BGC is one of the main reasons people think magic is overpowered. You wouldn't have a firefight on open terrain, so why don't you give people cover against spells? Areas frequented by gang-bangers would quickly gain a background from all that violence and suffering, and an angry crowd of people will scramble the local mana anywhere they go until they disperse.

Fortunately, or unfortunately as the case may be, the Mage is sensible enough not to use these spells on his contacts, or Mr. Johnson. He only uses them against enemies, and from the point of view of those offering the jobs, he gets things done, so I am not sure about dropping loyalty ratings or cutting job payouts.

He might not use the spells on contacts, but that doesn't stop them from being afraid that he WILL. If they're not mages themselves, they have no way of knowing he's not pulling the same tricks on them.

[deek]

I had a mage in my last game that had these spells. Someone on DSF mentioned that mind control was similar to rape. And RAW states that the recipient is aware of being controlled.

So, what would you do if a player decided to physically rape every enemy the group came across? Would the players sit by and let this happen even if everything else was under control? The only way this rep wouldn't be out would be if everyone the mage used this on was killed afterwards...which is plausible, but then he gets a rep that everyone he comes across ends up dead.

Anyways, that's how I handled my player. He used mind control spells sparingly because of it. Any more than that, and he'd start getting a bad rep with people he dealt with, which would in turn, make his life more difficult and the group would find problems running with him.

Its certainly touchy, cause the spells are there. They are powerful and quite adept in defeating enemies...

[DWC]

What'd the player say when you talked to him away from the table and mentioned that his choice of how he played his mage was annoying everyone else in the group?

[Warlordtheft]

Thanks for the good replies so far, as I noted in the OP, I don't have a desire to remove these spells entirely. They are a part of the SR universe that has been around for a while, I just don't remembering them being this overpowered in previous editions (it doesn't help that the Mage in this group is a min/maxer). The problem is that they are being used in just about every conceivable situation, it is like the Mage's first thought every time a situation comes up is "how can I use Control Thoughts/Mob Mind in this instance?", and the other players sit around doing almost nothing because the Mage already has it under control. In the last gaming session, the other players even noted their frustration and mentioned that they were afraid I would start using Control Thoughts against them to even the playing field. The Mage was nonplussed by this, detailing how many dice he could use in counterspelling to protect them.

Now, I have gone an record as being the anti-power gaming GM, and my group is well aware of my dislike of min/maxing. Straight up, this Mage will die soon if the status quo does not change, and that may be the only thing I have to do to get things back on a more balanced keel. I think I am going to put some of your suggestions to use, however, to keep this from being an issue in the future

I have not used Background Count much in the past, and have not used it at all in 4ed, so I am intrigued by this possibility, best start brushing up on it, Street Magic here I come. Fortunately, or unfortunately as the case may be, the Mage is sensible enough not to use these spells on his contacts, or Mr. Johnson. He only uses them against enemies, and from the point of view of those offering the jobs, he gets things done, so I am not sure about dropping loyalty ratings or cutting job payouts. I will certainly keep this in mind, though, in case I do see situations where using these spells would increase attention on the runners.

I do like the idea of the large Astral footprint leading heavy hitters back to his doorstep, or Free Spirits showing up to teach him a lesson, both of which could directly lead to the death of the Mage and fulfill plans in that regard. Also, given the current situation involving a lot of gang activity, I am thinking that the gangers will frequently be using willpower enhancing drugs.

Also, forgot about drones. They can't be mind controlled (hacked yes!). Also note that an ambush could happen by one of those he's manipulated. Buying the farm is still cheap in SR4. You should have a "consequence" session where this happens. If he doesn't get the hint, he gets to buy the farm.

[Murrdox]

The only way this rep wouldn't be out would be if everyone the mage used this on was killed afterwards...which is plausible, but then he gets a rep that everyone he comes across ends up dead.

Exactly. If you have a reputation for controlling everyone's mind, who ISN'T going to be scared of you. Even your FRIENDS will be scared that if they do something you don't like, suddenly their minds will be probed.

It doesn't matter if you NEVER manipulate a Mr. Johnson or a friendly contact. They'll still be nervous around you if they find out about your reputation. And in the shadows... unless you kill everyone you mentally control, that information WILL get out there on the shadow net. Even low-life sprawlers get on the Matrix and are sure to post stories about the shadowrunner team they ran into, and the mage who mentally commanded them to all begin shooting at each other.

That kind of astral signature probably won't go unnoticed, and the last thing Mr. Johnson will want is an interested 3rd party snooping on the shadowrunners that he's hired to get a job done.

Also, maybe people begin to refuse to meet with the mage in person... matrix meetings are much safer.

[Stahlseele]

Would Mob Mind actually work on SINGLE targets?
or does it only work if there's x targets around?
if it DOES work on single targets, why would anybody NOT take the Mob Mind instead of single person mind?

[DireRadiant]

I've played in games where the team's first response to finding out their own mage had mind controls spells was to geek their own mage.

You can always get another mage, you can't get that unviolated feeling back.

Runner are bad people who shoot people in the face for money, don't forget that.

[Warlordtheft]

I've played in games where the team's first response to finding out their own mage had mind controls spells was to geek their own mage.

You can always get another mage, you can't get that unviolated feeling back.

Runner are bad people who shoot people in the face for money, don't forget that.

Which is why the runner mage should never ever flaunt his powers...banning them IMHO is excessive, overuse by a player however should have consequences. Also they aren't the end all and be all oof spells. Gangers are punks who may not have the resources to handle the situation. A corp or the cops should have resources to counterract this kind of tactic. When he starts using it on the other players, he is asking for it.

[Shilaleagh]

warded helmets and/or battle suits. naturally, not everyones going to have em.. but some of the law enforcement guys might (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) preferably the ones with the big frag-off <insert weapon of mass destruction here>

[Draco18s]

warded helmets and/or battle suits. naturally, not everyones going to have em.. but some of the law enforcement guys might (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) preferably the ones with the big frag-off <insert weapon of mass destruction here>

You can't ward helmets or battle suits.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You can't ward helmets or battle suits.

Yeah, but think of the possibilities of warded Heavy Combat Armor

[twilite]

If Mob Mind is a problem with large gangs, have the gangers spread out more. Remember that the area for the spell is only Force meters radius. If they are in clumps in separate areas, he can't hit them all at once. Those not caught in the spell still get to act, and with them noticing a high force casting (see rules for noticing spellcasting on p. 168 SR4) should be trying to geek the mage. They should be avoiding the clustering anyway to avoid grenades and other aoe nastiness.

Have them come up from unexpected places- secret tunnels or side entrances that they know about because it's their turf. Break LOS with smoke or flashbangs. If indoors, kill the lights- unless the Mage has cybered eyes, he takes the light penalties. Have some hide- only the visible ones are affected by the spell (p173 SR4) Really, low level opposition coming straight at any runner group is asking to be chewed up quickly- by gun bunnies as much as mages. Tactics keeps them alive and threatening, wheter it be Security goons or gangers.

Of course, if your player is also binding Spirits of Man with the Innate Spell (Mob Mind) then you are boned anyway- swarms of Mob Mind castings is only really stopped by background count, wards, spell defense and drones. If he isn't doing the binding, then see how much worse it can get? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

They were weaker in earlier edition, in 3rd edition for example they had a threshold of 1/2 willpower and any command that the person would be strongly opposed to created a willpower check TN was the force of the spell. If the mage was in LOS he could reduce successes by making an opposed willpower test, the victim only needed one net success to break the spell.

So you had break out chances when doing something like shooting yourself(though unlikely to succeed) and a smaller chance to pull the spell off from the get go.

I think both should be reinstated as official rules but would be decent house rules. Personally given how much stat(potentially unlimited)+skill is stronger than just Stat I'd consider making the threshold willpower and not 1/2 willpower. You should not be able to I win with a 3 force spell.