The Mage in the SR4 campaign I am running is kind of ruining the game experience for other characters in many ways with extensive use of Control Thoughts/Mob Mind. It seems that every encounter or situation they run in to, these spells can be used with near impunity to remove the threat. Obviously, throwing an opposing Mage into each encounter would help to mitigate the issue, but there are many situations where it just does not make sense for a Mage to be in the opposition. In particular, the current missions I have been running deal with alot of gang activity, and it just does not fit for a Mage to be hanging around with these gang-bangers.

I don't want to eliminate these spells altogether, having already let the genie out of the bottle, but does anyone have any ideas on how they can be reigned in a bit?

By RAW the subject(s) make Willpower rolls every [Force] combat rounds, hits are cumulative to all checks previously made.

So in combat Control Actions is still pretty powerful, but outside of combat you can't maintain your control over someone for any longer than about 2 minutes (Force 4 * 3 seconds = 12 seconds per roll, 4 hits / 3 willpower average = 4 checks = 1 initial + 3 * Dur = 36 seconds).

Beyond that you can include DP modifiers for forcing the target to do something they wouldn't normally do (such as shooting themselves: +9 dice, shooting a friend/coworker: +5 dice or whatever).

Use Background-Count.
especially if it's mobs, they create their own background count.
or if you don't want a mage in there, use someone with arcane arrester.
or the natural background count.
or someone who is just too damn headstrong for his own good.
dwarves or something like that.
In BIGGER Mobs or crowds, use more than one of these.
And it does not have to be a FULL mage to get dispelling or anti magic guard or whatever.

one interpretation is that you cast the spell, and don't get to give orders (ie the targets are unaffected) until you spend your next action controlling them.

another possibility is that mind controllers aren't possible. have the group's contacts start drying up, especially the mage's. they can lose loyalty rating, and even give information to any enemies the mage may make (which will likely be a lot, considering how violated his victims are going to feel). nothing says "tone it down a little" like a grenade stuffed inside your mattress...

How would people react to a mage going around fireballing every one? The end result is not much different for the gangers, they got neutralized. But how do all the people the mage associates or deals with react? In fact, in some ways the standard reaction might be even worse. Everyone can be shot or suffer violence from any other person, but it takes a special threat to destroy a person's sense of self and make them act against their will.

Fireball is direct and flashily effective, what are the consequences?
Mob Mind is possibly less direct, and effective, what are the consequences?
A barrage of grenades is direct and flashily effective, what are the consequences?

You may consider your own personal reaction to the Mob Mind versus the Fireball and grenades scenarios, and have the consequences reflect that.

Grenades are available option for everyone, and are just as mechanically effective as the fireball or mob mind spell, but something about that mind control just gets to people. Use it, there are consequences, apply them.

And that goes back to one of the rules in the SR universe...GEEK THE MAGE!

The mage is suposedly controlling the gangers via control thought or MOB mind. When attacking are the gangers spread out? Are they noticng who the Mage is.

If the mage is making the leader say "these are not the runners we are looking for". Know that after the PC's drop the spell, the gangers might do a double take if they were sent to go after them specifically and set up a better ambush. If it was a random act of violence on their part, you'll have tonsider how his buddies feel about it (since it would seem pretty strange that he said attack one minute, and wait these are our friends the next).

Ban them. They are overpowered and overpowering.

If they object remember that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. After the sami shoots the mage in the back of the head with an HE mini-grenade they may reconsider their objections.

I suppose it really depends on your campaign and the contexts that he's using it in.

Options I would use:

- All that mental control leaves a big astral footprint. Anyone tracking the astral signature of your group's Mage is going to have an easy time of it. He soon could find himself being observed astrally by spirits or watchers.

- People don't like having their thoughts controlled. It's one of the reasons people are afraid of the Awakened. Look at Charles Xavier. People are scared crazy of him because of his mind-reading abilities. If word gets out on the street that your Mage is breaking into the mind of anyone he runs into, he's going to get a bad reputation built up fast. The rest of your shadowrunner group will be guilty by association. Contacts might stop returning emails, the runners might get kicked out of the best clubs in Seattle. Any corp or gang who thinks they're going to run into him might be prepared.

- A free-spirit might decide that he's causing too much trouble in the awakened world, and teach him a lesson to not abuse his mind powers.

- I don't remember the full list of drugs out there right now, but maybe introduce various drugs which increase Willpower. Those who operate in his area might keep some on hand if they know about him.

- The group has called a little bit too much attention to itself by using so much mental control. Mr. Johnson's client has found out about it and isn't happy. He lets Mr. Johnson know that he better make sure the "assets" that he's hired maintain a low profile. If their work gets traced back to him the payout for the job might not meet expectations.

Increase the drain?

Thanks for the good replies so far, as I noted in the OP, I don't have a desire to remove these spells entirely. They are a part of the SR universe that has been around for a while, I just don't remembering them being this overpowered in previous editions (it doesn't help that the Mage in this group is a min/maxer). The problem is that they are being used in just about every conceivable situation, it is like the Mage's first thought every time a situation comes up is "how can I use Control Thoughts/Mob Mind in this instance?", and the other players sit around doing almost nothing because the Mage already has it under control. In the last gaming session, the other players even noted their frustration and mentioned that they were afraid I would start using Control Thoughts against them to even the playing field. The Mage was nonplussed by this, detailing how many dice he could use in counterspelling to protect them.

Now, I have gone an record as being the anti-power gaming GM, and my group is well aware of my dislike of min/maxing. Straight up, this Mage will die soon if the status quo does not change, and that may be the only thing I have to do to get things back on a more balanced keel. I think I am going to put some of your suggestions to use, however, to keep this from being an issue in the future

I have not used Background Count much in the past, and have not used it at all in 4ed, so I am intrigued by this possibility, best start brushing up on it, Street Magic here I come. Fortunately, or unfortunately as the case may be, the Mage is sensible enough not to use these spells on his contacts, or Mr. Johnson. He only uses them against enemies, and from the point of view of those offering the jobs, he gets things done, so I am not sure about dropping loyalty ratings or cutting job payouts. I will certainly keep this in mind, though, in case I do see situations where using these spells would increase attention on the runners.

I do like the idea of the large Astral footprint leading heavy hitters back to his doorstep, or Free Spirits showing up to teach him a lesson, both of which could directly lead to the death of the Mage and fulfill plans in that regard. Also, given the current situation involving a lot of gang activity, I am thinking that the gangers will frequently be using willpower enhancing drugs.

Costs and availabilities of existing drugs that enhance Willpower.

• Kamikaze - 100 / 4R
• Nitro - 50 / 2R
• Zen - 5 / 4R
• Hurlg - 5 / -
• K10 - 900 / 16F
• Red Mescaline - 50 / 4R

You could have a gang with a free spirit hanging out or a guardian with heavy counterspell. If it adds 6 dice many of them will resist against a typical roll. A spirit will actually see the spell and can directly deal with the mage. Or just use influence on the sami and suggest that he shoot the mage in the head. (Sadly the mage will find that counterspell doesn't work on critter powers.)

But the mind control spells are the "I Win" button in SR, so it's going to be hard to convince a player who found it to stop. It's easier when they are also on the receiving side, as the average PC is not significantly tougher than the gangers against these spells.

Forgetting about BGC is one of the main reasons people think magic is overpowered. You wouldn't have a firefight on open terrain, so why don't you give people cover against spells? Areas frequented by gang-bangers would quickly gain a background from all that violence and suffering, and an angry crowd of people will scramble the local mana anywhere they go until they disperse.



He might not use the spells on contacts, but that doesn't stop them from being afraid that he WILL. If they're not mages themselves, they have no way of knowing he's not pulling the same tricks on them.

I had a mage in my last game that had these spells. Someone on DSF mentioned that mind control was similar to rape. And RAW states that the recipient is aware of being controlled.

So, what would you do if a player decided to physically rape every enemy the group came across? Would the players sit by and let this happen even if everything else was under control? The only way this rep wouldn't be out would be if everyone the mage used this on was killed afterwards...which is plausible, but then he gets a rep that everyone he comes across ends up dead.

Anyways, that's how I handled my player. He used mind control spells sparingly because of it. Any more than that, and he'd start getting a bad rep with people he dealt with, which would in turn, make his life more difficult and the group would find problems running with him.

Its certainly touchy, cause the spells are there. They are powerful and quite adept in defeating enemies...

What'd the player say when you talked to him away from the table and mentioned that his choice of how he played his mage was annoying everyone else in the group?

Also, forgot about drones. They can't be mind controlled (hacked yes!). Also note that an ambush could happen by one of those he's manipulated. Buying the farm is still cheap in SR4. You should have a "consequence" session where this happens. If he doesn't get the hint, he gets to buy the farm.

Exactly. If you have a reputation for controlling everyone's mind, who ISN'T going to be scared of you. Even your FRIENDS will be scared that if they do something you don't like, suddenly their minds will be probed.

It doesn't matter if you NEVER manipulate a Mr. Johnson or a friendly contact. They'll still be nervous around you if they find out about your reputation. And in the shadows... unless you kill everyone you mentally control, that information WILL get out there on the shadow net. Even low-life sprawlers get on the Matrix and are sure to post stories about the shadowrunner team they ran into, and the mage who mentally commanded them to all begin shooting at each other.

That kind of astral signature probably won't go unnoticed, and the last thing Mr. Johnson will want is an interested 3rd party snooping on the shadowrunners that he's hired to get a job done.

Also, maybe people begin to refuse to meet with the mage in person... matrix meetings are much safer.

Would Mob Mind actually work on SINGLE targets?
or does it only work if there's x targets around?
if it DOES work on single targets, why would anybody NOT take the Mob Mind instead of single person mind?

I've played in games where the team's first response to finding out their own mage had mind controls spells was to geek their own mage.

You can always get another mage, you can't get that unviolated feeling back.

Runner are bad people who shoot people in the face for money, don't forget that.

Which is why the runner mage should never ever flaunt his powers...banning them IMHO is excessive, overuse by a player however should have consequences. Also they aren't the end all and be all oof spells. Gangers are punks who may not have the resources to handle the situation. A corp or the cops should have resources to counterract this kind of tactic. When he starts using it on the other players, he is asking for it.

warded helmets and/or battle suits. naturally, not everyones going to have em.. but some of the law enforcement guys might preferably the ones with the big frag-off <insert weapon of mass destruction here>

You can't ward helmets or battle suits.

Yeah, but think of the possibilities of warded Heavy Combat Armor

If Mob Mind is a problem with large gangs, have the gangers spread out more. Remember that the area for the spell is only Force meters radius. If they are in clumps in separate areas, he can't hit them all at once. Those not caught in the spell still get to act, and with them noticing a high force casting (see rules for noticing spellcasting on p. 168 SR4) should be trying to geek the mage. They should be avoiding the clustering anyway to avoid grenades and other aoe nastiness.

Have them come up from unexpected places- secret tunnels or side entrances that they know about because it's their turf. Break LOS with smoke or flashbangs. If indoors, kill the lights- unless the Mage has cybered eyes, he takes the light penalties. Have some hide- only the visible ones are affected by the spell (p173 SR4) Really, low level opposition coming straight at any runner group is asking to be chewed up quickly- by gun bunnies as much as mages. Tactics keeps them alive and threatening, wheter it be Security goons or gangers.

Of course, if your player is also binding Spirits of Man with the Innate Spell (Mob Mind) then you are boned anyway- swarms of Mob Mind castings is only really stopped by background count, wards, spell defense and drones. If he isn't doing the binding, then see how much worse it can get?

They were weaker in earlier edition, in 3rd edition for example they had a threshold of 1/2 willpower and any command that the person would be strongly opposed to created a willpower check TN was the force of the spell. If the mage was in LOS he could reduce successes by making an opposed willpower test, the victim only needed one net success to break the spell.

So you had break out chances when doing something like shooting yourself(though unlikely to succeed) and a smaller chance to pull the spell off from the get go.

I think both should be reinstated as official rules but would be decent house rules. Personally given how much stat(potentially unlimited)+skill is stronger than just Stat I'd consider making the threshold willpower and not 1/2 willpower. You should not be able to I win with a 3 force spell.

Yyeah those two spells are a bit game-breaky. In the latest version of D&D they got rid of these kinds of spells because they have so much utility/power. Control body is not so bad since it targets body (harder to get it working on sams etc), and influence is only the "one shot" suggestion. I think you need to have a frank chat with the PC about not using those spells too much for the sake of simple "game balance" and "fun of other players & the GM". Shinobi might also be onto something. On the other hand though the spells really shouldn't last too long, as pointed out by an earlier poster.

Well the latest version of D&D sucks so I'm not sure i'd use them as a model. I think the much earlier versions of D&D did it better. Yes they had save or die spells like control thoughts(heck a high force stun bolt is save or die in SR) but the chance of success in pulling off a save or die was fairly slim, so usually the degrade HP spells worked better. In 3e D&D they made the saves hard to make so save or dies became the game, in 4e they overreacted and basically removed them from the game.

The basic rule should be the more likely a successful cast will instantly remove a target from the game the less likely it should be to succeed. Kind of like if you use a long burst to increase damage you are down dice due to recoil.(unless you easily handle all the recoil like my character) Control thoughts have a 100% chance upon a successful cast to remove the target from the game so there chance to be successful should be low. Right now there chance to be successful is really high and they remove you instantly from the game, on top of the the removal can have additional positive side effects past the target is dead.

So if your a mage and can instantly remove someone from the game that's bad, but if your a sami and can instantly remove someone from the game that's great?
Get off your high horse.

as was noted, the latest edition of D&D isn't relevant. this is shadowrun.

if we were to follow the latest version of D&D, you wouldn't have spells like fashion, mask, trid phantasm, shapechange, levitate, etc because they actually provide the players with a set of tools that allow them to think outside the box (which appears to be an undesirable thing as far as i can tell from how 4th ed was designed). it's not a horrible game, but it isn't even really D&D... it's more like the deluxe railroad edition of D&D. with miniatures.

certainly, something should be done about how mind control spells work in SR4. yes, other things can instantly defeat opponents, but most of those other things require planning, strategy, surprise, or some other advantage. they're too much of an "I win" button, and could use some toning back; the method that involves the least rules modifications is to make it have social drawbacks (again, something that wouldn't be acceptable in the game that gives you cancer). this largely works because in shadowrun, unlike certain other games, a couple of punks with hunting rifles and a reason to hate your guts can actually inflict significant damage and even kill you... so if you go around committing mindrape on ever person who gets in your way, it won't be long before someone gets mad at you for what you did to their brother/sister/father/mother/son/daughter/cousin/aunt/etc and puts a bullet in your skull from 300 meters away with no warning. yes, this is heavy-handed.

that being said, the issue in question is sounding an awful lot like a player issue, and should probably be resolved OOC rather than simply IC. if you aren't going to ban mind control spells, the player can just make the same kind of character again, even if something happens to his mind control mage mk I. it isn't even very hard. so in this case, i would agree with the advice to actually sit down with the player in question, and have a discussion about the logical consequences of what he is doing both in-game and out of game. because if he keeps it up, pretty soon you'll find your other players "can't make it this week" because they have "prior committments" and you'll be stuck miserable GMing this guy alone. hating every second of what is supposed to be a form of recreation for you. that's a really good way to wind up hating shadowrun, and i highly recommend you don't go down that road any further.

in fact, i would go so far as to say that the character has probably already burned his bridges. how many people do you know who will say "oh, he only rapes every single one of his *enemies*, and also anyone who gets in his way, so i feel perfectly comfortable dealing with him."? probably not many. nobody should be willing to touch this guy except for the most desperate people. his contacts should dry up, Mr Johnsons should stop calling the team as long as he's on it, and probably after. as an added benefit, this gives the player a chance to design a new character that isn't based around mind control, so he can't complain that it's the only thing his character is good at (which i doubt was true anyways, but just in case the excuse comes up).

Quoted for great justice. 4e was terrible. There were rule changes I liked (crits kill zombies, failed saving throws aren't death) and some I didn't like (what do you mean, I get to use this once every 24 hours, regardless of how successful it is? I use it on a group of kobolds, fail with, and then slaughter and somehow doesn't work on the dire bear I encounter 6 hours later in the forest?)

Hmm, the forum seems to have eaten my previous post

Yes, an area spell affects any and all targets in the area (sphere of a radus of Force meters). If there happens to be only one valid target, only one is affected. The rules about manipulation spells explicitly state that either one or all targets in the area can be ordered to do something. As someone else already wrote, the mage first needs a complex action to cast the spell and then a simple one to issue an order.

There is a single target version of mob mind because the drain of such a spell is two less. Since Force is the only thing to postpone the annoying additional resistance rolls, you want to go as high as possible without actually being damaged by the drain.

Lots of good points have been made (background count, drones, drugs, reactions of the PCs/contacts), but I'd add this:

Mind Control spells are the perfect "dark side of the Force" spells. Imagine you're a mage with mind control spell. You can get anyone to do whatever you want. Why bother standing in line when everyone can be happy to let you enter? See that cute girl over there? One spell later and she's in your bed. One more and she remembers it as the best night of her life.
By all means, have him abuse his spells: they're so powerful, so useful! They make his life so much easier... And if his friends are getting afraid of him or try to convince him to stop he can always mind control them too, right? It's not as if he'd become a toxic/twisted mage because of this, right?

Actually, on reflection, I don't think control thoughts is that bad - it only affects one target, it doesn't last long, and to give it orders you must sacrifice your own actions. That isn't overpowered. But mob mind is a problem, because you swap your action to control a whole bunch of foes. Maybe give mob mind the toss, but keep control thoughts? Could be a neat solution. Just have your player pick another spell.

Another tactical disadvantage of mob mind is that orders can only go to one target or all of them.

I don't know how your manipulator mage is built but 6 drain for a reasonably powerfull spell should also a deterrent against casting it all the time.

We have a mage in our group that has this spell. He's used it two or three times, and when he has it wasn't game breaking. I personally haven't noticed any problem.

Is the drain for Control Mob too low for the power of the spell perhaps? Another option would be to increase the drain on the spell substantially. I could even envision increasing the drain for every subject that you attempt to control.

You can't do it per the rules in SR4. It was vaguely possibly in SR3 (in that it wasn't prohibited) but I got huge pushback when I suggested it to the GM....

Kind of a moot point in SR4 as spells cast on the material plane only exist on the material plane, and wards are only on the Astral. You also can't cast a spell on the astral and have it affect the physical. A dual natured item/critter could be affected by a spell on either plane, but it would not affect his single nature compatriot not on the attacks plane. They got rid of the grounding rules in SR4 (sad to see this go, but it does simplify things).

But you can ward a cargo container. The issues with warding combat armor are:
1) Size. You need to have a minimum of 1 meter radius (as cube)
2) Contained space (such as a cargo container, box, cage, crate, or cargo van)

So a warded helmet or a warded piece of rigid armor should be possible for Force Karma. Seee above post. Forgot the minimum size.

on a side note, mob mind is a sustained area spell. it effects everyone in the area, and is sustained on that area, *not* on any individuals within that area. if you mob mind a group to leave the area, you lose control. and it takes an action to move the spell anywhere.

wards are stationary only - you can't move them: p.123 Street magic. But you put some of that magical bacteria stuff in the walls of your cargo container. Not sure about vehicles.

You CAN move wards - the important bit is that the ward's focus must remain stationary relative to the ward's walls. So a warded step-van (or larger vehicle) is possible, but it's going to have an odd support smack in the middle of it.

Excellent question.

-paws

No, they are dual natured.

Yep... Wards are definitely Dual-Natured...

Yep.....they are...that Warlord guy should stop posting when the books aren't in front of him..

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying.

You should not be able to easily remove someone from the game with 100% chance of success. A Sam can remove someone from the game instantly but it is not nearly as easy. They go against reaction then the target resists with both body and armor, so frequently targets actually can do something to not be insta killed. Vs control thoughts it is both ridiculously easy and 100% successful upon a hit. You shouldn't have both whether its magic or guns. But on a side point, actually a Sam should be somewhat better at the killing and froilaven than a mage. A mage has a ridiculously larger array of options compared to a Sam. But neither should have it so its stupidly easy to routinely take almost anyone out of the fight in one move.

Shinobi Killfist, looking down from his high horse where he has a good enough view to interpret posts in non lame ways.

Yeah, but as we all know, those characters with the 20+ dice pools are always critically successful, that is the reason they have those 20+ dice pools in the first place, to guarantee success... thus, insta kill time...


*shrug*

And back to the OP---his player is maxed out dice wise. So you can assume 12+ dice on his rolls. Not as frigging high as the sam, but the mge don't have to worry about armor.

And back to the OP---his player is maxed out dice wise. So you can assume 12+ dice on his rolls. Not as frigging high as the sam, but the mge don't have to worry about armor.

The big difference is that the spells force limits the total successes.