Perfect timing, I was just about to bring up something similar I had been kicking around. It seems to me that the wording of Control Thoughts is where the problem comes in, so I am thinking of ignoring the specific wording which lets you get away with having the controlled individual do whatever you want. What I am thinking of doing is to make Control Thoughts and Control Actions (and the respective AoE versions) mutually exclusive spells. If you want to control what someone does, you would use Control Actions. If you want to control what someone thinks, you would use Control Thoughts. Seems logical to me, but some might say, "if I control what someone thinks, am I not controlling their actions by extension?". And my response to that is "not necessarily", think of Control Thoughts as the Jedi Mind Trick and things become more clear.

I have to run now, let me have your thoughts on this, and I will be back on in a bit to post some examples if needed.

Nah, we already have Jedi Mind Trick, that's Influence. Control Thoughts is a sustained spell, but it specifically says they obey your commands. It does not give you any power to actually change what they think, if you read the operative language, it just says they must obey your commands without resisting.

Maybe the Jedi Mind Trick is a bad reference, I did not have time to write down the example I had in mind, and I grabbed at that in a bit of a hurry. Influence is definitely a better fit in that regard.

BTW, here is the specific wording from the book (emphasis mine): "The caster seizes control of the target's mind, directing everything the target does."

For the sake of this example, I am looking at the word 'directing' more in the sense of directing a play or a movie. You do not have direct control over the actors (targets) actions, you can only guide them with your words (thoughts) prior to their actual performance (action). So, say you are facing several gangers with their leader, and you want the gang leader to attack the others, and decide to use Control Thoughts to do so. You can't tell the gang leader to point his gun at his friends and shoot it, because that would be Control Actions, you can only control what he thinks. You can make him think that his gang members are actually your team, but he may not necessarily attack them, he may decide he is outnumbered and beat a hasty retreat.

For those who are familiar with Heroes, this would be similar to the half of Matt Parkman's power that lets him control what people are thinking (his ability to read their thoughts would be like mind probe). On the other hand, Control Actions would be exactly like The Puppetmaster's power.

Please bear in mind, I know this is not going to be RAW. I have a firm grasp on the RAW, and feel it is overpowered, so I am looking for a house rule to reel it in a bit. The purpose of this thread was to get a feel for house rules others may be thinking of, or have already implemented. Of course it is also nice to hear the feedback from players, so I will have an idea of how my group may respond.

Well, that would be a good house rule to tone down the spell, and make it more different from Control Actions. It would probably need to have the same drain code as Control Actions though, if all you can do is make them think something without any guarantee what results it will have.

Well, if you read the description of the spell (in the BBB), it is pretty obvious that the traget MUST be awake... So, Just wanted to point that out

While we're at it, can I get a drain code reduction on Control Emotions so it's not as high as either of those?

Also for Sake of Example...

The Other 8 (out of the 10) will fill you so full of bullet holes that it won't even matter... you will NEVER get off the command to do anything else...

My Two Cents, Again

You know... That works for me...

No they don't. You contol everything the target does. If you don't issue a command they stand there and do nothing. Compare to Control Actions where it says, explicitly, "if not commanded, the target may act as normal."

Considering the example that you provided... 2 are controlled (the 2 in the AOE of your Force 2 Spell) the other 8 are uncontrolled and thus shoot you untill you are dead...

Pretty cut and dried to me...

You tell the controlled two to kill the other 8. I suspect that the other 8 will be occupied for a few moments. It does work best from inside your car or another site were the target can't easily determine who is doing this.

And we have a winner. When those 2 are dead, control another 2!

Well I suspect if you are going against 10 at once you'd just up the force of the spell. Force 2 is a bit weird of an example anyways since force 3 is the same drain code increases the area of the spell and reduces the chance to resist significantly. And while the drain is a bit high for this spell, you can drop people with low force spells so the drain is still stun. A force 5 version would be 6 drain and hard to resist its still probably stun damage for you. A force 9 stun ball would be bigger and drop people about the same for 1 stun less but that is all it does. With control thought at a 5 meter radius I think I got as big of an area effect as I need and I don't just drop targets, I take them out of the fight and get to use them.

Yes it takes a simple action to command them, but If I command 6 people with one action I am getting 6 simple actions each turn. Further more a single command can make the person continue to take actions. Run up the stairs to the top of the building is one command, he will continue to run up the stairs until he gets to the top or breaks the control. He wont move for 1 simple action and then wait for another command.

Due to this spells versatility it shouldn't even be as remotely as good at insta winning vs a foe as a combat spell, but its just as good except for what being 1 drain higher at force 5 and the same drain at force 3.

With the exception that the Force 9 Stun Ball will Probably take out everyone, and can be done with a single complex action... how often does it come up that you need to control others to get your runs accomplished... and as Larme has pointed out, you have to micro-manage those individuals to some degree to make them effective, depending upon how you interpret that fulfillment of commands... I would argue that the bare minimum would satisfy the command. Nothing says that they have to comply to the best of their ability, just comply... after all, they still know that they are being commanded, unlike Influence (which I prefer to Control Thought anyway)...

Anyway the point of the whole argument was that a Force 2 Control Thoughts/Mob Mind was the ultimate killing spell, vastly superior to any Combat Spell... With this I heartily disagree... Nothing beats Combat Spells for their sheer brutality and lethality...

Yes, you can conceivably get multiple opponents to bend to your will, but not at Force 2 (as the hypothesis was stated), and not for any length of time at all... will more powerful variations be better, most assureadly, but that was not what was being pointed out...

Also, I am in total agreement that the spell, as is generally interpreted here on the forums, is somewhat powerful... but there are ways to place controls on it without nerfing the spell itself... The vast majority of those controls are in the form of local law enforcement, as Jet so eloquently showed above, and the paranoi of the common man on the street... You may be powerful in the moment, but you will eventually be caught and then you will suffer the consequences...

As for more effective (save for Drain)... Please note...
Control Thoughts: Drain = F/2+2
Mob Mind: Drain = F/2+4

Stun Bolt: Drain = F/2-1
Stun Ball: Drain = F/2+1

Mana Bolt: F/2
Mana Ball: Drain = F/2+2

Now according to my calculation... The Control Thoughts WILL ALWAYS BE more costly in terms of Drain...
At Force 9: Stun Bolt (DV3), Mana Bolt (DV 4), Stun Ball (DV5), Mana Ball (DV6), CONTROL THOUGHTS (DV6), MOB MIND (DV8)...
By all comparisons, the Combat Spells are FAR Superior in terms of drain... and for lethal damage, the Single Target of a Control Thoughts spell cast requires a minimum of 2 passes) for the VASTLY superior Area Effect of the Mana Ball FOR THE SAME DRAIN...

How exactly is control thoughts superior in drain comparisons? How is it Equal at Force 3? By definition of the Drain Categories, It will always be the back seat spell for those who worry about drain... and I would contend that it will be the spell of last resort for removing the threat of multiple opponents... useable only if you have no other spell to accomplish the task... and it will still be inferior to Combat Spells...


Anyway, My Two Cents

So Mob Mind is overpowered because you only fight enemies that are magically incompetent? Because only magically incompetent enemies wouldn't figure out what was happening within the first, oh, 6 seconds. At that point, they all scatter and start looking for the person that shouldn't be there, who MUST be within line of sight of them. Or, alternately, they call in their own astral squad.

Mob Mind is in no way, in no situation you're ever likely to encounter in a real game, superior in combat situations compared to dedicated combat spells such as Powerball.

Dr. Gil Grissom examines the scene: 8 dead bodies, room riddled with bullet holes, and a trail of blood leading out to the street.

"Collect the bullets and firearms, get blood samples, lets see what matches up with who."

After intense ballistics analysis it turns out that every bullet plucked from the walls, floor, ceiling, and the bodies all came from one of the guns being carried by the dead, except 10 or so, which came from two other firearms--identical to the ones they had collected, cheap machine pistols used by the local gogangers. The blood samples matched up to each of the 8 bodies, plus 2 more individuals.

The scene had also been analyzed for astral evidence, but apparently it was either clean, or well scrubbed. From the looks of it someone tampered with the minds of their attackers and made them fire on each other, and only 2 out of the 10 managed to make their escape, both bleeding badly. No evidence of the mage was found.

And how is that superior to a Powerball/Manaball/Stunball?

It's not. Except that your buddies won't be shooting up the room too, they'd be too busy laughing.

In any case, I'm starting to like Alpha Omega's magic system far far better than any I've ever seen before.

A spell is [Souce]+[Intent]+[Effect]. Sources are things like Alpha, Being, Void, or Elemental. Intents are things like Creation, Nihilism, Agony, Entropy. Effects are the actual mechanical rules for the varying things you can do with magic; summoning entities, healing people, causing damage, raising or lowering States.

Intents have about 3 to 6 different effects you can pull off with them, but not all of them work with all Sources (and not all Intents can be used with all Sources--Alpha and Nihilism for example don't work together).

For a spell to be valid, you have to justify your Source, Intent, Effect, and desirable outcome.
For example: Being + Creation + Repair Structure is a valid spell.
Conversely: Alpha + Deliverance + Healing, while valid, can not heal a physical creature, only creatures of Alpha energy.
But: Void + Creation + Repair Structure is not valid. Void is the absence of matter and energy, Creation does have the effect of Repair and Creation is linked to Void, but this spell isn't valid (Void + Creation + Summon Entity is valid ).

It has a few problems, such as many Alpha/Omega Intentions have limited use, whereas Being as a source works on almost anything (buffs, damage, summons, repair, mind control). Energy is also of limited use, but can be quite useful (Energy + Agony + Damage Target).

What makes the system balanced is the difficulty of getting the spell off, there's an entire chart.
Rang: Touch is +2, <3 metes is +3, <5 is +4...
#targets: self +2, <3 +3, <5 +5...
Duration (combat, rounds (6 seconds)): 1 +1, 2 +3, 3 +5...
Duration (non-combat, minutes): <5 +1, <60 +5, 180 +10
Modifiers (major mod, such as altering states): 1 +10, 2 +14, 3 +18...
Modifiers (minor mod, such as increasing duration by combat rounds): 1 +2, 3 +6 5 +10...

Wielding time: take DR (above) and compare:
<4: 1 sec, <10: 2 sec, <20: 3 sec, <60: 7 sec
Endurance cost: Wielding time +1 per second casting time is reduced.

Controlling minds(major mods!) for very long (in combat!) on large numbers of targets (more than 2) is hard! The DR quickly pushes past 30, beyond the capabilities of starting characters.

If it's not superior to the combat spells in efficacy, and it costs more drain and more time...

how is it overpowered?

No resistance roll on part of the target.
3 dice, or hell, even 9 dice (3 + 6 counterspelling) isn't anywhere near the number of dice a mage can throw casting the spell.

At least when being shot you get Reaction to avoid, then Body + Armor to resist.

Which, I might point out, is a change I'd like to see to all spells.

In other words, you're arguing that all magic is overpowered, not that Mob Mind is overpowered.

To a certain degree. Mob Mind itself probably isn't, but Control Thoughts might be (compared to similar solutions in its class). The only reason the area effect version isn't even when the single target is, has to do with the 1) unmoving nature of the area and 2) the limited radius.

Compare a Stunbolt (Force 2) to a Control Actions (Force 2).

That's not a valid comparison. You're comparing spells with different drain values, different "casting times" (in effect), and different durations (ie, Control Foo gives a -2 penalty to anything else you do until your target kills himself).

But Stunball to Mob Mind is valid?

What is Alpha Omega? Is that someone's custom Shadowrun rules? Or is it a generic rule system to use with whatever setting? Or is a totally different RPG? Regardless, I hope we'll keep talking about Shadowrun, which is what this board is for

As for the topic... I'm not entirely clear what we're arguing about now. Are we arguing about whether Mob Mind is broken? At Drain Code +4, I have a hard time thinking it is, especially because a force 2 spell would let them test to break free every other combat turn.

I also think that this test prevents them from taking any other action -- it says that every (force) turns, they may spend a complex action to break free. You can't spend a complex action breaking free, and also shoot/fight people in obedience to a command. IMO, the rule that says they "may" spend a complex action is the exception to the rule that they have to obey commands -- with a weak spell, they're likely to stand there resisting every few rounds. So there actually is a pretty big disadvantage to casting it at low force, and it's dangerous to cast at high force thanks to its drain code.


As for this whole scenario of 2 guys attacking their friends, getting killed, and repeating, doesn't it sort of assume that all the enemies are dumb automatons? It's like they're mobs, they aggro hostile, and continue to attack until they die. IMO, that's not how it would happen with real, thinking opponents. Let me outline how I think it would go, using the gangers out of SR4A.

Mage takes control of two gangers using a Complex Action to cast.

The 8 other gangers observe the obvious without a test, that 2 of their number aren't doing anything. One of them says "Guys! Wake up!" Nothing hapens.

Next init pass, Mage has two simple actions. He uses one action to command both gangers to attack their friends. Controlled gangers attack their friends. They have Agility 4, Pistols 2 for 6 dice. Average of 2 hits. The targets defend for an average of 1 hit, and are shot with 1 net hit. Let's assume the guns are Ares Predators -- 5P/-1. The gangers have Body 3 with armor vests, -1 AP = 9 dice = average 3 hits. So they each take 6 physical damage, assuming that the gun gets fired twice. EDIT: And assuming it hits twice, I forget about the -1 recoil which could easily cause the second shot to miss with such a low dice pool.

After that happens, the other gangers start trying to hit their friends with clubs and such to get them to snap out of it. It doesn't work. Once one of them is dead or knocked out and they start getting scared, they finally decide "they've gone nuts! Let's get the hell out of here guys!" They might even realize that magic is involved. The gangers scatter, dragging their unconscious friends if any have been knocked out. By this point, the two that were controlled by the very weak spell have shaken it off, and they also scatter. The mage has accomplished: scaring a bunch of gangers, maybe a killing a few, which the rest of the team could have done a lot more quickly and effectively. Now, if he'd just walked in there with a high Force stunball, that would have been that. But instead, the gangers are now on the lookout for a mage, and they're angry.

Sorry, it's another RPG system I've gotten into lately.
Will attempt to dissect the rest of this post after dinner.

Show me where I ever directly compared the two. I asked why you'd ever use Mob Mind instead of Stun/Mana/Powerball, yes. That's not a direct comparison, it's a value judgement.

You're asking for a direct, force-to-force comparison. It's totally ludicrous. Among other things, there is literally no reason whatsever to ever cast a Force 2 Stunbolt unless you only have 1 Magic.

Ah, but a Force 2 Control Thoughts can eliminate a target. Takes a (minimum) Force 5 Stunbolt to do the same.

Depends on what you were looking for as a resolution anyway. As you've show the mage scared off 10 gogangers, whereas 4 PCs probably couldn't have done that with firepower. At least, not without sustaining injuries.

What if they were hired to take the PCs out anyway?

Really? 4 PCs couldn't scare off 10 gangers without sustaining injuries? What kind of gimps do you play with? The ganger grunts have 6 initiative. They carry around drugs, so they can get 2 passes, but still, they're quite slow. They have 3 body and 6 armor, 6 attack dice (a big 7 with a melee weapon)... One streetsam with an airburst grenade launcher could take them out in one initiative pass. 4 guys with full auto weapons could do it too -- each full burst can hit 3 gangers, counting as a short burst. A short burst from an AR with ExEx ammo does 9P -2AP. The gangers have an average 2 hits to resist, and they have 10 boxes of physical damage, so the attackers need 3 net hits to kill them outright, which is 4 total hits since the ganers have 3 defense dice and no dodge skill. And if all you wanted was to scare them away, some sniper fire or suppressive fire from cover would take care of that. And let's not think about what a rigger with an armored vehicle or heavy drone would do to them.

The point is, the strategy you suggest, defeating some gangers by making 2 of them attack the others, is not going to work unless the gangers are mindless automatons who aggro any hostile opponents and fight until they're dead. Per RAW, that would never happen, since they have Professional rating of 1 and would flee as soon as half of them are down. And per GM discretion, if they know that two of their good friends are being magically controlled (which they probably would if their best buddies attacked them for no reason) they'll run away rather than fight them. It would be a lot more efficient to attack them directly, whether with an AoE combat spell, a spirit, a drone, some grenades, or all of the above. Mob Mind is only going to be really useful for achieving things other than carnage. You can make people do things they wouldn't otherwise do, like desert their post or give you their weapons, or issue you security clearance, or something. If you want them dead, Mob Mind is a bad tool because of how abominably high its drain code is.

"Gangers" was an example. It wasn't meant to be anything other than a generic "something you shoot."

I think anything too weak to have magical support would have the same principal apply equally. Airburst grenade launchers are marvelous tools. By the time you get up to stronger opponents where 4 PCs couldn't do the job, they're likely to have counterspelling support, and Mob Mind is out the window. The point is, it's never the best tool for the job when the job is to kill people because of its high drain.

Having your friends shoot you in the back without warning tends to really, really successful at putting a major hurt on you. In the first 6 seconds about 8 guys are dead. I'd expect the survivors are kind of injured. Oh, and the mage gets it first.

Would you then institute a drain code for shooting people? Like your fingers and eyes get tired from pulling the trigger or aiming?

Would there also be some balancing extra attribute you'd need to raise to be able to shoot people?

This is an artificial distinction in actual game play. When have you ever seen an actual PC combat mage with less than 3 Magic?

I got one with a "2", but then, because he is a combat mage he would still use a Force 4 Effect... But I do uinderstand what you are getting at...

And it is Very Artificial, as it will cause you (the mage) less trouble to just shoot your opponent rather than using that Force 2 Control Thoughts. On the questionable chance that it actually works, after all, you do not know the "stats" of the opposition, and it could get you very dead if you guess wrong... This is where the verisimilitude of the world comes into play... I don't know about you, but my character is not gonna bet his life on the effects of a Force 2 Control Thoughts/Mob Mind spell possibly taking effect... not knowing whether the opposition has any possible magical support... Remember, no matter your dice pool, you will still only get 2 successes to apply... are you gonna be willing to bet your life that it will be enough? I'm not...

Opionions vary though...

So since the mage ISN'T commanding them to fill him full of lead, and he's NOT going to allow that thought to enter their minds as he as seized control of it... how would they a) be able to form the thought and act upon it? and b) know who and where the mage is?

And what is the drain code on your stun bolt there?

The point is that the mage ISN'T controlling all 10 people. He's controlling 2 of them to kill the other 8.

The other 8 are not controlled as they were out of the area of effect... (2 Meter Radius is NOT that big after all)

Fluff aside, the Control Thoughts spell REQUIRES Commands to implement actions... No Command, then the character is in his own right to do what he wants until commanded otherwise...

There are several interpretations to the spell; I come in on the side of No commands to the contrary equals control of my own thoughts and actions until otherwise directed...

A lot less than the Control Thoughts/Mob Mind spell is... at Force 5 the Stun would be (DV1), the Force 2 Command Thoughts is still DV3...

You tell me which will be more effective...

The controlled targets still have free will until the controlling mage takes a Simple Action to tell them not to do anything. [and thus revoke free will]

I had an idea... a variation on Silence/Hush... load rating 1 linguasofts so you can no longer easily understand anyone's speech worth a damn. With a rating 1 lingusoft and logic of 3 you'd have an easy time understanding "do nothing" but something complex like "use your most effective form of crowd control on those opposing the ravenswood lodge starting with the most senior and well armed leader and then going after those with the lowest essence" or anything exceeding a high school level language student would probably get muddled and misacted on IF the target even thought he understood the command.

Sure, there is a myriad of degrees but the idea seems sound... ;-)

This is interesting...Though I would go with the Mental Communication providing understanding at the very least... it seems to fit the fluff better (That whole "Must Obey" seems to get around language barriers, though the command would still need to be worded somewhat precisely to get the result that was desired)

For example..."Shoot your partner" could be interpreted to just take a shot at your partner with no regards to competence (no use of specialties or Smartlink for example) while "Kill your Partner" could be interpreted to take the best shot you are capable of (but because you want me to kill him, I subtract the 8 dice from my pool for his basic Armor and another -3 for the Head Shot and -4 more for extra damage, for a total of -15 Dice)... in either case, I have done exactly what was commanded with respect to the action ordered, though in both cases, I will probably not hit with any degree of reliance, or have more than a single actual die left with which to make the attack with...

It is because of this issue that I think that Control Thoughts/Mob Mind Spells are a POOR option for a combat specific result...

Also, please remember that a GM is well within his rights to limit what commands are actually given to something reasonable... elaborate communication (even at mental speeds) tends to take a LOT longer than the typical 1-3 seconds given in any combat Pass/Turn... if you are giving commands that have to be explained to comprehend, then it is probably taking to long to really matter...


My Two Cents...

You can't take more than 1 kind of called shot at a time.

Says Where? Page 149-150 in BBB is not really very clear, though you could rationalize that viewpoint...

Fluff-be-damned, they are too powerful as written. Making them even more powerful doesn't add to game balance. Then again, I run (and play) by RAW as much as possible so I guess if you run a houserule-heavy game where mind control is encouraged sure you could allow it to include Mindlink for free and Translate for free.

No arguments there, just pointing out that it is not overed by the rules, so any change to the contrary would in itself be a houserule...

hi hi

How about breaking the game in another manner. What happens when two mages cast control thoughts on the same person? If they give the person conflicting commands, what does the person do?

Its implied in SR4A, p161. The only CLEAR exclusion I found was SR4A, p171 where it says a called shot can affect vehicle armor or passenger armor but not both.

Maybe... Thanks Wasabi...

It Always seemed to me that it would be beneficial to bypass armor (say -9 for Helmet and Tactical Armor) and target he head for extra Damage as well (-4) for a total of -14... Of course, if you are able to connect (generally with a sniper style character, out of combat) it is pretty gruesome... but then again, not being able to stack works just as well too... that -9 is still pretty brutal as a negative modifier... Especially if you only have 10-12 dice to attack with...

I only used this example to demonstrate that Commands in this regard are ambiguous and can be "circumvented" by "creative" interpretation... This style of command interpretation is not contradicted by the RAW and is perfectly acceptable as far as I can tell, as it is a valid interpretation of the rules...