Limiting Control Thoughts/Mob Mind, Any ideas? Options

[Psikerlord]

Yyeah those two spells are a bit game-breaky. In the latest version of D&D they got rid of these kinds of spells because they have so much utility/power. Control body is not so bad since it targets body (harder to get it working on sams etc), and influence is only the "one shot" suggestion. I think you need to have a frank chat with the PC about not using those spells too much for the sake of simple "game balance" and "fun of other players & the GM". Shinobi might also be onto something. On the other hand though the spells really shouldn't last too long, as pointed out by an earlier poster.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yyeah those two spells are a bit game-breaky. In the latest version of D&D they got rid of these kinds of spells because they have so much utility/power. Control body is not so bad since it targets body (harder to get it working on sams etc), and influence is only the "one shot" suggestion. I think you need to have a frank chat with the PC about not using those spells too much for the sake of simple "game balance" and "fun of other players & the GM". Shinobi might also be onto something. On the other hand though the spells really shouldn't last too long, as pointed out by an earlier poster.

Well the latest version of D&D sucks so I'm not sure i'd use them as a model. I think the much earlier versions of D&D did it better. Yes they had save or die spells like control thoughts(heck a high force stun bolt is save or die in SR) but the chance of success in pulling off a save or die was fairly slim, so usually the degrade HP spells worked better. In 3e D&D they made the saves hard to make so save or dies became the game, in 4e they overreacted and basically removed them from the game.

The basic rule should be the more likely a successful cast will instantly remove a target from the game the less likely it should be to succeed. Kind of like if you use a long burst to increase damage you are down dice due to recoil.(unless you easily handle all the recoil like my character) Control thoughts have a 100% chance upon a successful cast to remove the target from the game so there chance to be successful should be low. Right now there chance to be successful is really high and they remove you instantly from the game, on top of the the removal can have additional positive side effects past the target is dead.

[Mordinvan]

The basic rule should be the more likely a successful cast will instantly remove a target from the game the less likely it should be to succeed. Kind of like if you use a long burst to increase damage you are down dice due to recoil.(unless you easily handle all the recoil like my character)

So if your a mage and can instantly remove someone from the game that's bad, but if your a sami and can instantly remove someone from the game that's great?
Get off your high horse.

[Jaid]

Yyeah those two spells are a bit game-breaky. In the latest version of D&D they got rid of these kinds of spells because they have so much utility/power. Control body is not so bad since it targets body (harder to get it working on sams etc), and influence is only the "one shot" suggestion. I think you need to have a frank chat with the PC about not using those spells too much for the sake of simple "game balance" and "fun of other players & the GM". Shinobi might also be onto something. On the other hand though the spells really shouldn't last too long, as pointed out by an earlier poster.

as was noted, the latest edition of D&D isn't relevant. this is shadowrun.

if we were to follow the latest version of D&D, you wouldn't have spells like fashion, mask, trid phantasm, shapechange, levitate, etc because they actually provide the players with a set of tools that allow them to think outside the box (which appears to be an undesirable thing as far as i can tell from how 4th ed was designed). it's not a horrible game, but it isn't even really D&D... it's more like the deluxe railroad edition of D&D. with miniatures.

certainly, something should be done about how mind control spells work in SR4. yes, other things can instantly defeat opponents, but most of those other things require planning, strategy, surprise, or some other advantage. they're too much of an "I win" button, and could use some toning back; the method that involves the least rules modifications is to make it have social drawbacks (again, something that wouldn't be acceptable in the game that gives you cancer). this largely works because in shadowrun, unlike certain other games, a couple of punks with hunting rifles and a reason to hate your guts can actually inflict significant damage and even kill you... so if you go around committing mindrape on ever person who gets in your way, it won't be long before someone gets mad at you for what you did to their brother/sister/father/mother/son/daughter/cousin/aunt/etc and puts a bullet in your skull from 300 meters away with no warning. yes, this is heavy-handed.

that being said, the issue in question is sounding an awful lot like a player issue, and should probably be resolved OOC rather than simply IC. if you aren't going to ban mind control spells, the player can just make the same kind of character again, even if something happens to his mind control mage mk I. it isn't even very hard. so in this case, i would agree with the advice to actually sit down with the player in question, and have a discussion about the logical consequences of what he is doing both in-game and out of game. because if he keeps it up, pretty soon you'll find your other players "can't make it this week" because they have "prior committments" and you'll be stuck miserable GMing this guy alone. hating every second of what is supposed to be a form of recreation for you. that's a really good way to wind up hating shadowrun, and i highly recommend you don't go down that road any further.

in fact, i would go so far as to say that the character has probably already burned his bridges. how many people do you know who will say "oh, he only rapes every single one of his *enemies*, and also anyone who gets in his way, so i feel perfectly comfortable dealing with him."? probably not many. nobody should be willing to touch this guy except for the most desperate people. his contacts should dry up, Mr Johnsons should stop calling the team as long as he's on it, and probably after. as an added benefit, this gives the player a chance to design a new character that isn't based around mind control, so he can't complain that it's the only thing his character is good at (which i doubt was true anyways, but just in case the excuse comes up).

[Draco18s]

[WOTC didn't supply spells] because they actually provide the players with a set of tools that allow them to think outside the box (which appears to be an undesirable thing as far as i can tell from how 4th ed was designed). it's not a horrible game, but it isn't even really D&D... it's more like the deluxe railroad edition of D&D. with miniatures.

Quoted for great justice. 4e was terrible. There were rule changes I liked (crits kill zombies, failed saving throws aren't death) and some I didn't like (what do you mean, I get to use this once every 24 hours, regardless of how successful it is? I use it on a group of kobolds, fail with, and then slaughter and somehow doesn't work on the dire bear I encounter 6 hours later in the forest?)

[Dakka Dakka]

Hmm, the forum seems to have eaten my previous post

Would Mob Mind actually work on SINGLE targets?
or does it only work if there's x targets around?
if it DOES work on single targets, why would anybody NOT take the Mob Mind instead of single person mind?

Yes, an area spell affects any and all targets in the area (sphere of a radus of Force meters). If there happens to be only one valid target, only one is affected. The rules about manipulation spells explicitly state that either one or all targets in the area can be ordered to do something. As someone else already wrote, the mage first needs a complex action to cast the spell and then a simple one to issue an order.

There is a single target version of mob mind because the drain of such a spell is two less. Since Force is the only thing to postpone the annoying additional resistance rolls, you want to go as high as possible without actually being damaged by the drain.

[Blade]

Lots of good points have been made (background count, drones, drugs, reactions of the PCs/contacts), but I'd add this:

Mind Control spells are the perfect "dark side of the Force" spells. Imagine you're a mage with mind control spell. You can get anyone to do whatever you want. Why bother standing in line when everyone can be happy to let you enter? See that cute girl over there? One spell later and she's in your bed. One more and she remembers it as the best night of her life.
By all means, have him abuse his spells: they're so powerful, so useful! They make his life so much easier... And if his friends are getting afraid of him or try to convince him to stop he can always mind control them too, right? It's not as if he'd become a toxic/twisted mage because of this, right?

[Psikerlord]

Actually, on reflection, I don't think control thoughts is that bad - it only affects one target, it doesn't last long, and to give it orders you must sacrifice your own actions. That isn't overpowered. But mob mind is a problem, because you swap your action to control a whole bunch of foes. Maybe give mob mind the toss, but keep control thoughts? Could be a neat solution. Just have your player pick another spell.

[Dakka Dakka]

Another tactical disadvantage of mob mind is that orders can only go to one target or all of them.

I don't know how your manipulator mage is built but 6 drain for a reasonably powerfull spell should also a deterrent against casting it all the time.

[Murrdox]

We have a mage in our group that has this spell. He's used it two or three times, and when he has it wasn't game breaking. I personally haven't noticed any problem.

Is the drain for Control Mob too low for the power of the spell perhaps? Another option would be to increase the drain on the spell substantially. I could even envision increasing the drain for every subject that you attempt to control.

[kzt]

Yeah, but think of the possibilities of warded Heavy Combat Armor

You can't do it per the rules in SR4. It was vaguely possibly in SR3 (in that it wasn't prohibited) but I got huge pushback when I suggested it to the GM....

[Warlordtheft]

You can't do it per the rules in SR4. It was vaguely possibly in SR3 (in that it wasn't prohibited) but I got huge pushback when I suggested it to the GM....

Kind of a moot point in SR4 as spells cast on the material plane only exist on the material plane, and wards are only on the Astral. You also can't cast a spell on the astral and have it affect the physical. A dual natured item/critter could be affected by a spell on either plane, but it would not affect his single nature compatriot not on the attacks plane. They got rid of the grounding rules in SR4 (sad to see this go, but it does simplify things).

[Draco18s]

Kind of a moot point in SR4 as spells cast on the material plane only exist on the material plane, and wards are only on the Astral. You also can't cast a spell on the astral and have it affect the physical. A dual natured item/critter could be affected by a spell on either plane, but it would not affect his single nature compatriot not on the attacks plane. They got rid of the grounding rules in SR4 (sad to see this go, but it does simplify things).

But you can ward a cargo container. The issues with warding combat armor are:
1) Size. You need to have a minimum of 1 meter radius (as cube)
2) Contained space (such as a cargo container, box, cage, crate, or cargo van)

[Dakka Dakka]

Wards are a temporary form of dual-natured mana barrier that can be created by any Awakened being with astral perception (including spirits and adepts with the Astral Perception power).

So a warded helmet or a warded piece of rigid armor should be possible for Force Karma. Seee above post. Forgot the minimum size.

[Jaid]

on a side note, mob mind is a sustained area spell. it effects everyone in the area, and is sustained on that area, *not* on any individuals within that area. if you mob mind a group to leave the area, you lose control. and it takes an action to move the spell anywhere.

[Psikerlord]

wards are stationary only - you can't move them: p.123 Street magic. But you put some of that magical bacteria stuff in the walls of your cargo container. Not sure about vehicles.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

You CAN move wards - the important bit is that the ward's focus must remain stationary relative to the ward's walls. So a warded step-van (or larger vehicle) is possible, but it's going to have an odd support smack in the middle of it.

[paws2sky]

What'd the player say when you talked to him away from the table and mentioned that his choice of how he played his mage was annoying everyone else in the group?

Excellent question.

-paws

[kzt]

Kind of a moot point in SR4 as spells cast on the material plane only exist on the material plane, and wards are only on the Astral.

No, they are dual natured.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, they are dual natured.

Yep... Wards are definitely Dual-Natured...

[Warlordtheft]

Yep... Wards are definitely Dual-Natured...

Yep.....they are...that Warlord guy should stop posting when the books aren't in front of him.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

So if your a mage and can instantly remove someone from the game that's bad, but if your a sami and can instantly remove someone from the game that's great?
Get off your high horse.

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying.

You should not be able to easily remove someone from the game with 100% chance of success. A Sam can remove someone from the game instantly but it is not nearly as easy. They go against reaction then the target resists with both body and armor, so frequently targets actually can do something to not be insta killed. Vs control thoughts it is both ridiculously easy and 100% successful upon a hit. You shouldn't have both whether its magic or guns. But on a side point, actually a Sam should be somewhat better at the killing and froilaven than a mage. A mage has a ridiculously larger array of options compared to a Sam. But neither should have it so its stupidly easy to routinely take almost anyone out of the fight in one move.

Shinobi Killfist, looking down from his high horse where he has a good enough view to interpret posts in non lame ways.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying.

You should not be able to easily remove someone from the game with 100% chance of success. A Sam can remove someone from the game instantly but it is not nearly as easy. They go against reaction then the target resists with both body and armor, so frequently targets actually can do something to not be insta killed. Vs control thoughts it is both ridiculously easy and 100% successful upon a hit. You shouldn't have both whether its magic or guns. But on a side point, actually a Sam should be somewhat better at the killing and froilaven than a mage. A mage has a ridiculously larger array of options compared to a Sam. But neither should have it so its stupidly easy to routinely take almost anyone out of the fight in one move.

Shinobi Killfist, looking down from his high horse where he has a good enough view to interpret posts in non lame ways.

Yeah, but as we all know, those characters with the 20+ dice pools are always critically successful, that is the reason they have those 20+ dice pools in the first place, to guarantee success... thus, insta kill time...


*shrug*

[Warlordtheft]

And back to the OP---his player is maxed out dice wise. So you can assume 12+ dice on his rolls. Not as frigging high as the sam, but the mge don't have to worry about armor.

[Warlordtheft]

And back to the OP---his player is maxed out dice wise. So you can assume 12+ dice on his rolls. Not as frigging high as the sam, but the mge don't have to worry about armor.

The big difference is that the spells force limits the total successes.