Limiting Control Thoughts/Mob Mind, Any ideas? Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah, but as we all know, those characters with the 20+ dice pools are always critically successful, that is the reason they have those 20+ dice pools in the first place, to guarantee success... thus, insta kill time...


*shrug*

Dude its all about 20+ dice, who doesn't have 20+ dice. You totally are unsuccessful at everything you do if you can't roll 20+ dice.

I'm more concerned about balance in the norms than balance at the extremes. And I hope the norms put dice pools around 12-14 dice. And on a side note I think its lame I knock off 9 points of recoil with my main weapons on my character. I pity me when my Sunday GM lays into me with a 9 shot burst for damage with no recoil penalties in a whats good for the goose scenario.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Dude its all about 20+ dice, who doesn't have 20+ dice. You totally are unsuccessful at everything you do if you can't roll 20+ dice.

I'm more concerned about balance in the norms than balance at the extremes. And I hope the norms put dice pools around 12-14 dice. And on a side note I think its lame I knock off 9 points of recoil with my main weapons on my character. I pity me when my Sunday GM lays into me with a 9 shot burst for damage with no recoil penalties in a whats good for the goose scenario.

Yes Sir... You are definitely preaching to the choir here... mid-norm for us has ALWAYS been about 12 Dcce or so...

[Shinobi Killfist]

And back to the OP---his player is maxed out dice wise. So you can assume 12+ dice on his rolls. Not as frigging high as the sam, but the mge don't have to worry about armor.

The big difference is that the spells force limits the total successes.

While a spells force limits successes when you only need 1 net success you can make do with a force 3 spell on control thought in almost every case. In another thread I used stunbolt as a base line for force to success ratio for why control thought is bad. A force 3 control thoughts has a really good chance to succeed, since a 3-6 willpower is needed and they need 3+ successes. A force 3 stunbolt maxes out at 6 damage. Without edge you need a force 5 stunbolt in order to drop a target(assuming normal willpower) and you would need 5 net successes or roughly 15 more dice than your target. On top of that stunbolt is a direct combat spell and should have the edge in reliably taking out targets compared to a versatile manipulation spell. They should really try to balance control thoughts around those basics, I'm not sure the best way to do it but a threshold of 1/2or full willpower at least means you need more than 1 net success against there willpower test so successes matter like they do in combat spells, it also means the spell will usually be cast at a higher force since you don't know the targets willpower.

[Mordinvan]

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying.

You should not be able to easily remove someone from the game with 100% chance of success. A Sam can remove someone from the game instantly but it is not nearly as easy. They go against reaction then the target resists with both body and armor, so frequently targets actually can do something to not be insta killed. Vs control thoughts it is both ridiculously easy and 100% successful upon a hit. You shouldn't have both whether its magic or guns. But on a side point, actually a Sam should be somewhat better at the killing and froilaven than a mage. A mage has a ridiculously larger array of options compared to a Sam. But neither should have it so its stupidly easy to routinely take almost anyone out of the fight in one move.

Shinobi Killfist, looking down from his high horse where he has a good enough view to interpret posts in non lame ways.

So "most people" have a way to defend against a reaction wired sammy with a semi automatic grenade launcher? "Most people" can defend against a long burst from a MMG with full recoil comp? The sami will likely have 5 skill, 7+ attribute, +2 smart gun, +2 specialization, +1 enhanced articulation, +1 reflex recorders, and perhaps a +2 if his pan is set up to help get tactical data from drones and other team mates... so tossing about 20ish dice... against 3 dice reaction....

[IceKatze]

hi hi

I've had lots of problems with this spell before. The players don't mind when they automatically defeat just about anything you send at them with a single spell, but if you counterspell once or use hidden explosives or something, they hate your guts for it. Perhaps my biggest problem with control manipulations is that they are too "all or nothing." There's no mental health damage track in Shadowrun, so the player either wins tremendously, or fails horribly. Its not just the fact that you can instantly kill someone with control manipulations, you can make them tell you everything they know, and you have full use of their skills. Why even bother buying skills of your own when you can just use other peoples? Who needs a hacker when you can just get the person with access codes to hand you a data chip?

The spells in question are very morally objectionable, and I believe it was stated somewhere that in the UCAS, they're banned outright as a violation of constitutional liberties. Other then what has already been stated with drones and things, most of my plans for limiting control manipulations are "fluff" based.

People who use control manipulations regularly are liable to be control freaks, many of them are going to have the mentality of a paranoid fascist dictator. When they learn that there is a possible threat to the empires they have no doubt accrued with the use of their magic, they are going to send their own minions to dispose of said threat. Basically normal shadowrun paranoia multiplied by ten. Its one thing to kill someones minions, its another thing to learn everything they know about their boss before you do.

Once you get a reputation, everyone with a secret to hide (read everyone) is going to want you out of the picture. I don't ban these spells, but I try to make sure the player knows that he/she's opening an unpleasant can of worms by doing so.

[Mordinvan]

While a spells force limits successes when you only need 1 net success you can make do with a force 3 spell on control thought in almost every case. In another thread I used stunbolt as a base line for force to success ratio for why control thought is bad. A force 3 control thoughts has a really good chance to succeed, since a 3-6 willpower is needed and they need 3+ successes. A force 3 stunbolt maxes out at 6 damage. Without edge you need a force 5 stunbolt in order to drop a target(assuming normal willpower) and you would need 5 net successes or roughly 15 more dice than your target. On top of that stunbolt is a direct combat spell and should have the edge in reliably taking out targets compared to a versatile manipulation spell. They should really try to balance control thoughts around those basics, I'm not sure the best way to do it but a threshold of 1/2or full willpower at least means you need more than 1 net success against there willpower test so successes matter like they do in combat spells, it also means the spell will usually be cast at a higher force since you don't know the targets willpower.

When you start giving sammi's damage for 'firing' a gun the same way mages take damage for casting you get to start complaining they're not taking enough drain from their spells. Yes mages are versitile, they also have to buy a 15 bp edge, and then buy a whole new stat just to be able to buy the skills to use it. I would hope for the all the BP/karma you sink into making your character you get something out of the deal.

[Mordinvan]

Once you get a reputation, everyone with a secret to hide (read everyone) is going to want you out of the picture. I don't ban these spells, but I try to make sure the player knows that he/she's opening an unpleasant can of worms by doing so.

Can't you do this with a mind probe spell after a stun bolt?
Just inject some drugs to tank the victims willpower, and slurp their memories from them?
I know I designed a mage based infiltrator off this idea.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

Can't you do this with a mind probe spell after a stun bolt?

Such a character would likely suffer similar problems I would imagine, if he got a reputation for doing it a lot.

[Mordinvan]

Such a character would likely suffer similar problems I would imagine, if he got a reputation for doing it a lot.

Since I can erase the signature of any spell I cast... and I'm not telling anyone but my team, and my team is benefiting from this.... How would it come back to bite me in the ass exactly?

[kzt]

The big difference is that the spells force limits the total successes.

Most people can't GET the 6 successes he's limited to from char gen. 12 dice attack vs 3 dice defend gives you some insanely high chance of success. It's well over 95%.

[Draco18s]

Yeah, but as we all know, those characters with the 20+ dice pools are always critically successful, that is the reason they have those 20+ dice pools in the first place, to guarantee success... thus, insta kill time...

Even 20 dice to shooting people isn't instant-kill. It's up there, yes, but I wouldn't say it's a sure thing.

OTOH A force 2 Control Thoughts spell with 2 successes will auto-kill a target. Control Thoughts (2 hits) vs. Willpower (3 dice), thought to have: "Kill yourself."

Called shot, point blank, from a burst fire weapon, target is not moving:
Target rolls Body to resist the damage.
6 dice to shooting -> 2 net hits -> 6P weapon -> 8P+2 (short burst) damage resisted by 3 dice -> 9P damage sustained.

Even if the guy isn't dead, he's not going to be doing anything other than attempting to shoot himself again, second shot likely kills him, done in the same IP.

[Mordinvan]

Even 20 dice to shooting people isn't instant-kill. It's up there, yes, but I wouldn't say it's a sure thing.

OTOH A force 2 Control Thoughts spell with 2 successes will auto-kill a target. Control Thoughts (2 hits) vs. Willpower (3 dice), thought to have: "Kill yourself."

Called shot, point blank, from a burst fire weapon, target is not moving:
Target rolls Body to resist the damage.
6 dice to shooting -> 2 net hits -> 6P weapon -> 8P+2 (short burst) damage resisted by 3 dice -> 9P damage sustained.

Even if the guy isn't dead, he's not going to be doing anything other than attempting to shoot himself again, second shot likely kills him, done in the same IP.

Since mages need a complex action to cast, try a complex action to fire too. like say a full burst, so add 10 to your DV and get a more accurate figure.
Yes, that is pretty much an instant kill.
Also the 20 dice pool I listed isn't hard to do or even uncommon.
So with 20 dice, you get at least 4 successes with some cover and movement penalties and with 3 to dodge, target gets one.


Weapon damage is 6 + 3 + 10 + 1 (EXEX ammo) = 20 DV
Target would need over 30 dice to stand a reasonable chance of survival... I'm going to call that instant kill for any joe blow on the street.

And this is a non maxed Sammi.

Could so something similiar with a grenade launcher.
Again, pretty much instant death, especially if the target is standing near a solid wall

[Blade]

I'm not concerned about the combat uses of mind manipulation spells: Shadowrunners have a whole range of possibilities to insta-kill nearly most oppositions and most players will often make sure their character are able to do it. There's little to no difference between a burst from an assault rifle loaded with Ex-ex and a stunbolt. There's little to no difference between a grenade in the middle of a group of enemies and a mind-controlled enemy who kills everyone else.

For me, the problem lies more in the other uses of mind manipulation spells. But even then, most of the time you should be ok as long as you take them into account when preparing your games.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

Since I can erase the signature of any spell I cast... and I'm not telling anyone but my team, and my team is benefiting from this.... How would it come back to bite me in the ass exactly?

The walls have ears, and even if they didn't, do you do anything with the information you gain or do you just probe out of curiosity?

[Zaranthan]

The instagib rifle has already been handled, so I'll focus on the spell.

OTOH A force 2 Control Thoughts spell with 2 successes will auto-kill a target. Control Thoughts (2 hits) vs. Willpower (3 dice), thought to have: "Kill yourself."

Even if the guy isn't dead, he's not going to be doing anything other than attempting to shoot himself again, second shot likely kills him, done in the same IP.

Your timing is a bit off, here. For simplicity, let's assume both the mage and the grunt have 1 IP.

Round 1: Mage casts F2 Control Thoughts, gets two hits. Grunt rolls 3 Willpower, gets one hit. Grunt shoots the mage this round anyway, because he hasn't been told to DO anything yet.
Round 2: Mage orders grunt to kill himself. Grunt rolls 3 Willpower, plus 6 from being given an order against his nature (most people aren't suicidal), to throw off the mental control, gets three hits. Spell fades, grunt shoots the mage anyway.

Let's beef up the mage, for argument's sake. He's got 6 Magic, 6 Spellcasting, +2 Manipulation spell specialization, and a force 2 Power Focus. 16 dice to bend your brain. Let's give him lucky dice and assume he consistently rolls 6 hits, and can handle a Force 6 Control Thoughts.

Round 1: Mage casts F6 Control Thoughts, gets six hits. Grunt rolls 3 Willpower, gets one hit. Grunt shoots the mage this round anyway, because he hasn't been told to DO anything yet.
CT: 5 net hits left

Round 2: Mage orders grunt to kill himself. Grunt rolls 3 Willpower, plus 6 from being given an order against his nature (most people aren't suicidal), to throw off the mental control, gets three hits. Grunt shoots himself.
CT: 2 net hits left, assuming the grunt is still breathing.


Well, that's an open-and-shut case, eh? Oh, wait, let's change his specialization to melting people's brains instead of stealing them.

Round 1: Mage casts F6 Powerbolt, gets six hits. Grunt rolls 3 Willpower, gets one hit. Grunt takes 11P damage with no soak roll and collapses, bleeding from his ears.

Round 2: Mage casts F6 Powerbolt, gets six hits. Grunt #2 rolls 3 Willpower...


Looks like the combat mage is a bit more effective here. Let's go back to the mastermind and make him more efficient.

Round 1: Mage casts F6 Control Thoughts, gets six hits. Grunt rolls 3 Willpower, gets one hit. Grunt shoots the mage this round anyway, because he hasn't been told to DO anything yet. So does his partner.
CT: 5 net hits left

Round 2: Mage orders grunt to kill his partner. Grunt rolls 3 Willpower, plus 6 from being given an order against his nature (most people don't seriously want to shoot their coworkers outside of Dilbert strips), to throw off the mental control, gets three hits. Grunt shoots his partner. Partner shoots the mage again.
CT: 2 net hits left

Round 3: Mage goes on full defense, because he spent all his BP on casting big spells and soaking automatic fire. Grunt rolls 3 Willpower, plus 6 from being given an order against his nature (most people don't seriously want to shoot their coworkers outside of Dilbert strips), to throw off the mental control, gets three hits. Spell fades, mage redecorates the hallway with his own brains.


I'm...not seeing the problem here.

[Dakka Dakka]

Where did you get that the target of a manipulation spell gets an extra resistance roll, because an order is against the target's nature? I only remember that, when under the effect of the Influence spell, the target gets an extra roll if someone else convinces him about the wrongness of his actions.

Also it is not so clear that as long as the target is not fulfilling orders he ca act independently:

The caster seizes control of the target’s mind, directing everything the target does.

This can just as well be interpreted as the target does not do anything unless ordered.

[Machiavelli]

Besides that, I really don´t understand the problem at all. Finally we found something that is usefull in the spell-arsenal of a mage and immediately we find somebody who want´s to nerf it. I play and rule equally and until now, i haven´t found anything, that unbalanced the game. The abusing player is trying to get the last kick out of the spell and he only can do this, if the GM doesn´t gets the last kick out of the anti-magic-possibilities. Besides that the drain of the spell was quite high if i remember right, so this stuff shouldn´t be a problem at all. Nobody is nerfing APDS ammo, grenades etc. and they are equally effective...and more final.^^

[Warlordtheft]

Even 20 dice to shooting people isn't instant-kill. It's up there, yes, but I wouldn't say it's a sure thing.

OTOH A force 2 Control Thoughts spell with 2 successes will auto-kill a target. Control Thoughts (2 hits) vs. Willpower (3 dice), thought to have: "Kill yourself."

Called shot, point blank, from a burst fire weapon, target is not moving:
Target rolls Body to resist the damage.
6 dice to shooting -> 2 net hits -> 6P weapon -> 8P+2 (short burst) damage resisted by 3 dice -> 9P damage sustained.

Even if the guy isn't dead, he's not going to be doing anything other than attempting to shoot himself again, second shot likely kills him, done in the same IP.

Don't have the books in front of me....but as I recall the spell doesn't allow for that (might be edition blur though).

Personally, at that point I'd rule that the primal instinct to survive would override shooting oneself. I would also allow resistance rolls for the target to attack friends and co-workers (people he cares about). That being said, asking for the keys to the secret lab, would be perfectly legit as it doesn't involve directly harming himself or others he cares about.

[Dakka Dakka]

As far as I know there are no limitations on control thoughts/mob mind as to what the orders actually are. Such limitations exist only on the Influence and Control Actions spells. I'd like to see proof but to my knowledge there is no difference between "shoot yourself/your colleges." and "get me a soda.".

As per RAW there isn't even the usual the target will do exactly what it is told but tries subconsciously to subvert the intentions of the orders.

[Draco18s]

Round 2: Mage orders grunt to kill himself. Grunt rolls 3 Willpower, plus 6 from being given an order against his nature (most people aren't suicidal), to throw off the mental control, gets three hits. Spell fades, grunt shoots the mage anyway.

That's not RAW. He gets only 1 resist check by RAW. He doesn't get a second one until 2 combat rounds later (round 3).

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Besides, shouldn't the timing be more like:

Round 1, pass 1
Bad guy shoots mage...twice. (It's really easy to beat a mage in initiative, after all.)
Mage (assuming he's still alive) casts control thoughts. Assuming no counterspelling, background count, decent willpower score on a target, or blown roll due to wound modifiers, he succeeds.

Round 1, pass 2 and onward
Bad guy stands around and scratches his ass because the mage doesn't have a simple action with which to command him.

Round 2
If the mage hasn't been geeked yet, he gets to give up to two (simple action) commands. But giving any means he's not going to be casting any spells this round.


Frankly, it isn't really a useful in-combat spell. All it does is trade a boo-scary-powerful mage for one or possibly a few (for the AOE versions) pathetic grunts.

[kzt]

Personally, at that point I'd rule that the primal instinct to survive would override shooting oneself. I would also allow resistance rolls for the target to attack friends and co-workers (people he cares about). That being said, asking for the keys to the secret lab, would be perfectly legit as it doesn't involve directly harming himself or others he cares about.

That's all nice, but that isn't what the rules say. Once you start changing the rules as you deem fit you can't argue that something is or isn't a problem for everyone who is actually using the game without having you tell them how the rules don't actually work like the book says.

The issue with the spells is what the rules actually SAY. You don't get extra bonuses for ANYTHING. You don't get to reroll until force turns.

[Mordinvan]

hi hi

The walls have ears, and even if they didn't, do you do anything with the information you gain or do you just probe out of curiosity?

Depends on the character. Even if I do use it for 'fun and profit' knowing how I got it is nearly impossible.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

For many well kept secrets, there's only a finite number of possible ways for a single runner to consistently acquire the information, and none of them are particularly benign.

As for NPCs that somehow avoid jumping to rash conclusions, rumors or consequentialism, requiring instead concrete evidence before putting a bounty on someone's head there's a vast number of possibilities to be found out. Random bystanders are the high on the list; fly spy drones, implanted data recorders, observing masked astral forms, the victim being the only person who knew and being under a binding ritual (like a triad goon)

Or, and perhaps this is a stretch, another mage with a mind probe spell. Maybe an alter memory thrown in for good measure.

[Psikerlord]

control thoughts is fine, barring RP fallout for using it too much, maybe. mob mind is more of a problem, because the mage takes out the whole gang. On the other hand I guess so would a grenade (but much more loudly!)