Why is Mystic Adept cheaper than Magician? Options

[HappyDaze]

But if somebody brought a "mystic adept" to the table with all points in sorcery, ... If they built the character with a fundamental "munchkin" aspect like that

How is a mystic adept with a heavy sorcery focus any more "munchkin" than a magician with a heavy sorcery focus?

[Kerenshara]

How is a mystic adept with a heavy sorcery focus any more "munchkin" than a magician with a heavy sorcery focus?

Not heavy: ALL. As in 6 of 6 starting points. That was what the earlier post I was referring back to had postulated. That's not an "emphasis", it's Munch. A way to get heavier spell power for less cost up front, and with the chance to add extra on the back end. I don't say you couldn't go 5/1 in favor of sorcery, I have done it, but you MUST have one point in physical abilities or you're not actually playing a mystic adept.

[HappyDaze]

you MUST have one point in physical abilities or you're not actually playing a mystic adept.

Sure you are. You're not a magician because you've paid 5 less BP and you've sacrificed astral perception and projection all for the possiblity that later you'll develop your adept powers. This isn't munchkin so much as it's an odd choice.

[Kerenshara]

I second that. Sadly, this most compelling argument I've found has to do with how they were treated in SR3. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Technically, according to the FAQ, Screaming Eagle is correct.

-paws

The way I understood the FAQ, the simple answer is: if it modifies a die roll directly, use the lesser magic score apropriate to the "side" in question. If it does NOT modify a die roll, use full magic rating.

Is that the consensus?

[Kerenshara]

Don't forget a Mystic Adept cannot take advantage of the "Powerpoints for metamagic" optional rule, leaving them in serious trouble when it comes to adept powers. It's just not worth it to do anything but take a few minor amounts of adept powers and do the rest as magic. That said, a trauma damper and platelet factory is a quick way to make your mage into a drain soaking banishing machine for low force spells and spirits.

Emphasis mine.

Why not? The rules primarily treat them as an adept: "Sorcery" is an adept power that has "levels" you have to buy up through. The real limiting factor here is going to be giving up USEFUL metamagic for those power points. And let's not forget having to PAY for the actual magic rating with ever increasing Karma. The best you could hope for would be to use the rule where you can get a free spirit to help you learn "additional powers" up to 2 x Initiation Grade. But for that, I would rule that the "power point for metamagic" WAS a metamagic power, for that limit. Which means if you got to grade 6, you could have 6 extra magic points for whatever, 6 powers, and 6 power points. That's a LOT of Karma. Oh, and a final thought: remember that those "extra points" don't raise the base "adept" side magic rating split, so you might still have serious caps based on your allocations.

[Hagga]

Just seems silly to me, that's why. Mystic Adepts miss out on the best bits of everything, why not beat them with the ugly stick a little further?

[Cthulhudreams]

A purely sorcery focused adept is pretty dire anyway, the 5 points are worth astral projection, the metamagic access and astral sight.

[toturi]

toturi, you realize that you're basically saying that between a reasonable non-RAW solution and and idiotic RAW solution you willing take the idiotic path. That's really sad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I am saying that generally there is no such thing as a reasonable non-RAW solution and RAW solutions are always reasonable, if you do not seek to impose your preconceived notions on the game. If you wish to impose certain preconceptions, then anything can be idiotic.

[Zurai]

RAW solutions are always reasonable

That's possibly the funniest thing I've seen all day. Fake SINs are utterly worthless if you use strict RAW -- you have to make a SIN check every time you do anything other than huddle in your home, and even a rating 1 scanner vs a rating 6 fake will win once in 20 or so tries (which will take about 20 minutes in anything but a Barrens area). That's just one example, there are plenty more.

[Kerenshara]

Look, in shadowrun, mages and spirits attack you and try and kill you. Things follow you in the Astral. If that doesn't happen in your games, I really don't have a basis to talk to you on, because we're not really playing the same game.

Thank you.

I think unarmed adepts suck, which is colouring my thinking. To be fair, I'm probably incapable of a truely impartial analysis of the character. Basically to the me the advantage of an 'unarmed adept' is they can just trot on through security and go super badass on the other side at a say the high society gathering. But an adept or magic users cannot actually do that, because security will have them tagged as the high force magic user. A bio sammie can, however, walk through the checkpoint just fine and bust out his concealed monowhip on the other side, because he is less detectable.

Hold on: what grade is that bioware? The same mage that successfully assensed past your Mage/Mystic Adept's masking (They DO have masking, right?) to determine they're big mojo will have NO problem spotting the 'ware the bio-sammy's sportin'. And that much 'ware, especially low-profile 'ware, is at least as threatening to security as an awakened lass who's got several levels in initiation... because you implied a LOT of 'ware, and that's not "starting character" stuff. If it's Deltaware, then your mages have enough levels in initiation to make them VERY hard to penetrate.

[Kerenshara]

Randolph is something like what I imagine a Sioux Wildcat sniper would be. Shapechange allows him to get a good vantage point by changing into some sort of flying animal; while up in the sky, he can use Clairvoyance to get a good look at thing. The nice thing about these spells is that they only require 1 success to be used.

Once he has his target, distance is a paltry factor with Enhance Aim, and his decent stealth pool (12dp) allows him to get within extreme range fairly easily.

Some excellent ideas about how to get the MOST utility out of a mystic adept's (relatively) lower max numbers. But I just have to ask: after you find your vantage point as a tiny critter, how do you plan to haul your gear and (especially) rifle up there? Gear doesn't shapeshift with you. Or did you mean you'd just re'ce the place as a critter and make your way by mundane means?

[toturi]

That's possibly the funniest thing I've seen all day. Fake SINs are utterly worthless if you use strict RAW -- you have to make a SIN check every time you do anything other than huddle in your home, and even a rating 1 scanner vs a rating 6 fake will win once in 20 or so tries (which will take about 20 minutes in anything but a Barrens area). That's just one example, there are plenty more.

Since you claim that the above is strict RAW, you won't mind backing it up with a quote, would you?

I would remind you of this:

if you do not seek to impose your preconceived notions on the game

You seem to have a preconceived notion of how much worth fake SINs should be.

[Cthulhudreams]

Thank you.


Hold on: what grade is that bioware? The same mage that successfully assensed past your Mage/Mystic Adept's masking (They DO have masking, right?) to determine they're big mojo will have NO problem spotting the 'ware the bio-sammy's sportin'. And that much 'ware, especially low-profile 'ware, is at least as threatening to security as an awakened lass who's got several levels in initiation... because you implied a LOT of 'ware, and that's not "starting character" stuff. If it's Deltaware, then your mages have enough levels in initiation to make them VERY hard to penetrate.

It takes 1 hit to spot cyber, it takes 3 or more to spot bioware. A mage assensing people at a checkpoint is going to be the text book definition of guy who buys hits. He's going to be professional, so he's going to have skill 3-4 and stat 4 or so. Meaning he gets two hits and doesn't see bioware. Plus it requires even more hits to know what it is - which unlikely cyberware is not something they can realistically do, because determining if you have synaptic boosters will take a full on medical test - and you might just have dietware.

Actually buying that third hit actually requires a specialist assenser. So to put that in cut and dried terms, if no-one has any reason to suspect you are doing something illegal, they won't know you are about to do something highly illegal until you actually do it.

The other part is it's not actually that much cyberware and is certainly in reach of a starting character. Muscle toner, synaptic boosters and a reflex recorder make you pretty much super badass with a monowhip. You'll probably have 4 essence left.

[Octopiii]

Some excellent ideas about how to get the MOST utility out of a mystic adept's (relatively) lower max numbers. But I just have to ask: after you find your vantage point as a tiny critter, how do you plan to haul your gear and (especially) rifle up there? Gear doesn't shapeshift with you. Or did you mean you'd just re'ce the place as a critter and make your way by mundane means?

2nd version. With his Orientation system and Mapsofts, after he's scouted the target out he should have no problem A: getting to his location, and B: finding a good spot to take him out. He can also post a spirit to keep an eye on him, if the target is unawakened. One good tip is to not use up your magical ability for something you can do just as well as Mundane. Give Randolph a glider from Arsenal, for example, and scrounge a point to give him some Pilot ability to use it - I'd probably drop Tracking down to two and buy Pilot: Aircraft to 2. A spirit can slap mobility on it and have him move at 3x speed.

I don't find the fact that the M.A. can't sling super spells like a full mage to be a problem. He's not meant to do what a mage does; he just has magic back up in doing what niche he has for himself: So far, I've made a Close-combat expert, a Face, a Rigger, and an Assassin, and I daresay they're all quite playable, and a match for most other builds in the same area of expertise while having unique skills that cannot be duplicated in any other method.

[Kerenshara]

It takes 1 hit to spot cyber, it takes 3 or more to spot bioware. A mage assensing people at a checkpoint is going to be the text book definition of guy who buys hits. He's going to be professional, so he's going to have skill 3-4 and stat 4 or so. Meaning he gets two hits and doesn't see bioware. Plus it requires even more hits to know what it is - which unlikely cyberware is not something they can realistically do, because determining if you have synaptic boosters will take a full on medical test - and you might just have dietware.

Actually buying that third hit actually requires a specialist assenser. So to put that in cut and dried terms, if no-one has any reason to suspect you are doing something illegal, they won't know you are about to do something highly illegal until you actually do it.

SR4A, P.191: Assensing Table
Information Gained

0
• None

1
• The general state of the subject’s health (healthy, injured, ill, etc.).
• The subject’s general emotional state or impression (happy, sad, angry).
• Whether the subject is mundane or Awakened.

2
• The presence and location of cyberware implants.
• The class of a magical subject (fire elemental, manipulation spell, power focus, and so on).
• If you have seen the subject’s aura before, you may recognize it, regardless of physical disguises or alterations.

3
• The presence and location of alphaware cyber-implants.
• Whether the subject’s Essence and Magic are higher, lower, or equal to your own.
• Whether the subject’s Force is higher, lower, or equal to your Magic.
• A general diagnosis for any maladies (diseases or toxins) thesubject suffers.
• Any astral signatures present on the subject.

4
• The presence and location of bioware implants and betaware cyberimplants.
• The exact Essence, Magic, and Force of the subject.
• The general cause of any astral signature (combat spell, hearth spirit,and so on).

5+
• The presence and location of deltaware implants, genetreatments and nanotech.
• An accurate diagnosis of any disease or toxins which afflict the subject.
• The fact that a subject is a technomancer.

Emphasis mine. Higher grades are harder to find, and I would argue each bioware grade is one harder as well, making delta bioware an 8. That, however, is a matter for debate.

The other part is it's not actually that much cyberware and is certainly in reach of a starting character. Muscle toner, synaptic boosters and a reflex recorder make you pretty much super badass with a monowhip. You'll probably have 4 essence left.

Synaptic boosters is 32% of max starting resources, by itself. Buying a second level takes you to 64%, the minimum needed to engage multiple targets and "clean up". Toner is another 6.5%, so we're at just under 71% of maximum starting resources, and we haven't bought a lifestyle or anything else. That's probably not a starting character; That was the point I was trying to draw. It makes sense, in a way, but a PC mage is going to try to get to that first level of initiation like their life depends on it. Then if they have a decent intuition it's an opposed test between the viewer's [Assensing + Intuition] vs. the masker's [Magic (full for MA's) + Initiation Grade + Intuition]. Who do YOU think's going to win there? Especially if the bored mage's "buying" successes. If HE'S an initiate too, why is he just a security guard, and what's so slotting important they have him out front like a rent-a-cop?! So with as few as 13 earned Karma (full price for grade 1) a Mage/MA can walk in too. And they won't have a Forbidden weapon that might show up on the cyberscanner/MAD gateway.

[Cthulhudreams]

Case in point?

1 hit: Whether the subject is mundane or Awakened.

2 hits: The presence and location of cyberware implants.

3 hits: Whether the subject’s Essence and Magic are higher, lower, or equal to your own.

4 hits: The presence and location of bioware implants and betaware cyberimplants.

so our security dude is always going to spot the awakened guy and the guy with regular grade wired reflexes, but will probably never spot our hero with synaptic boosters and muscle toner. Looks good to me.

[Zurai]

Since you claim that the above is strict RAW, you won't mind backing it up with a quote, would you?

Sure. Page 259:

"Most importantly, a SIN is now required for any form of legal travel -- including just buying a bus ticket."

Page 260:

"(whether for buying a dress or crossing a border)"

Page 210:

"the law often requires certain core pieces of data to be accessible in certain areas (SIN must be broadcast on UCAS federal property"

Page 38:

"Without one, it's very difficult to do otherwise simple things like rent an apartment, buy a car, or check into a hotel"

Page 157, Runner's Companion:

"On the downside, most Middle neighborhoods will require all metahumans to broadcast a SIN and ID at all times."
"Police drones patrol the streets, scanning everyone for their ID and SINs"

I know there are other examples in the rules where you use your SIN to buy anything and everything legal, as well -- even just a cup o noodles at the Stuffer Shack. I just can't find that quote with my cursory searches.

In other words, unless you're squatting in the Barrens and never setting foot anywhere even remotely legal, always buying from fences and fixers, etc... you're going to lose SINs very frequently if you go by strict RAW.

[Cthulhudreams]

Unless you assume that the scanner and fake sin buy hits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[toturi]

Sure. Page 259:

"Most importantly, a SIN is now required for any form of legal travel -- including just buying a bus ticket."

Page 260:

"(whether for buying a dress or crossing a border)"

Page 210:

"the law often requires certain core pieces of data to be accessible in certain areas (SIN must be broadcast on UCAS federal property"

Page 38:

"Without one, it's very difficult to do otherwise simple things like rent an apartment, buy a car, or check into a hotel"

Page 157, Runner's Companion:

"On the downside, most Middle neighborhoods will require all metahumans to broadcast a SIN and ID at all times."
"Police drones patrol the streets, scanning everyone for their ID and SINs"

I know there are other examples in the rules where you use your SIN to buy anything and everything legal, as well -- even just a cup o noodles at the Stuffer Shack. I just can't find that quote with my cursory searches.

In other words, unless you're squatting in the Barrens and never setting foot anywhere even remotely legal, always buying from fences and fixers, etc... you're going to lose SINs very frequently if you go by strict RAW.

Your quotes do not convey the same to me. To me, it simply means that unless you stay in a Middle neighbourhood or higher and make legal transactions, your fake SIN is not going to be subject to the constant scrutiny that will cause your fake SIN to fail.

[Zurai]

Unless you assume that the scanner and fake sin buy hits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Actually, doing that is pretty much a surefire way to lose every SIN you buy. Hits are bought at a 4 dice to 1 hit ratio, and you can't buy hits if you have fewer than 4 dice. Thus, a rating 3 scanner actually has a better chance to beat a bought-hits rating 4 fake SIN than a rating 3 rolled-hits fake SIN. Also, it's impossible to get more than a single hit with buying hits off fake SINs, since they only go to rating 6, RAW, whereas the most common roll is going to get you 2 hits on a rating 6.

Your quotes do not convey the same to me. To me, it simply means that unless you stay in a Middle neighbourhood or higher and make legal transactions, your fake SIN is not going to be subject to the constant scrutiny that will cause your fake SIN to fail.

You don't have to LIVE in the Middle neighborhoods, just travel into/through them. The broadcast requirement isn't just for residents. And do you seriously never, ever buy any legal products whatsoever? All your gear is secondhand or smuggled? All your food? Your entertainment? Your nightclubs are all in the slums? You never meet Johnsons in the better parts of town? You never have to hire a cab or park your car?

[toturi]

You don't have to LIVE in the Middle neighborhoods, just travel into/through them. The broadcast requirement isn't just for residents. And do you seriously never, ever buy any legal products whatsoever? All your gear is secondhand or smuggled? All your food? Your entertainment? Your nightclubs are all in the slums? You never meet Johnsons in the better parts of town? You never have to hire a cab or park your car?

Yes, of course, if you travel through a Middle neighbourhood or better you'd need a SIN, fake or otherwise. Or rather, the security there would be looking for your SIN. You still do not need to actually have one though.

Some of my characters do purchase legal products, but when they want something done illegally, they make use of their fake SINs which are of course illegal.

[Cthulhudreams]

Actually, doing that is pretty much a surefire way to lose every SIN you buy. Hits are bought at a 4 dice to 1 hit ratio, and you can't buy hits if you have fewer than 4 dice. Thus, a rating 3 scanner actually has a better chance to beat a bought-hits rating 4 fake SIN than a rating 3 rolled-hits fake SIN. Also, it's impossible to get more than a single hit with buying hits off fake SINs, since they only go to rating 6, RAW, whereas the most common roll is going to get you 2 hits on a rating 6.

Sorry, I thought my joke was clear when combined with the winking smiley- it means that the scanner is unable to get any hits and thus never detects are rating 4 or better fake sin unless it goes into 'active' mode and starts rolling for some reason.

This is, incidently, pretty much the handwave I use, and it isn't meant to be a serious point.

Synaptic boosters is 32% of max starting resources, by itself. Buying a second level takes you to 64%, the minimum needed to engage multiple targets and "clean up". Toner is another 6.5%, so we're at just under 71% of maximum starting resources, and we haven't bought a lifestyle or anything else. That's probably not a starting character; That was the point I was trying to draw.

It totally is by the way, it just makes no sense not to create a street sammie without muscle toner or synaptic booster II. Fortunately for a sammie equipment is actually pretty cheap (armour, gun, whip, high lifestyle, a few odds and ends and your done).

As for the mage, I'm pretty sure you need extended masking (the second grade of initiation) so you can mask your active masking focus - because having an active masking focus is much the same as wearing a sign saying "I'm really suspicious." And yes, at that point you are freaking badass! You can just use physical mask on yourself and walk in with a fully automatic grenade launcher and it will pretty hard to spot you. You're also a second grade initate, which is pretty powerful in its own right

Unless someone makes you walk through mana static or a background count.

[Kerenshara]

Unless you assume that the scanner and fake sin buy hits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I would never assume that an inanimate object buys hits. They are placed carefully (by the GM) as a threat, and as such are not subject to laziness and should be allowed a chance to cause a little mayhem. And not every mage is going to buy their hits, either, but there at least you can expect human nature and boredom to help explain it.

[Kerenshara]

It totally is by the way, it just makes no sense not to create a street sammie without muscle toner or synaptic booster II. Fortunately for a sammie equipment is actually pretty cheap (armour, gun, whip, high lifestyle, a few odds and ends and your done).

As for the mage, I'm pretty sure you need extended masking (the second grade of initiation) so you can mask your active masking focus - because having an active masking focus is much the same as wearing a sign saying "I'm really suspicious." And yes, at that point you are freaking badass! You can just use physical mask on yourself and walk in with a fully automatic grenade launcher and it will pretty hard to spot you. You're also a second grade initate, which is pretty powerful in its own right

Unless someone makes you walk through mana static or a background count.

I didn't get to 100%, so of COURSE it's a possibility, but that just tends to make you a pretty narrowly focused beastie. Or to use an older phrase: a one-trick-pony. There's not a lot of room for things like improved senses (and protections for them, like damping), 'links of diferent kinds, defensive implants (armor, resistance, etc.) or anything else, and forget affording upgraded 'ware. Also, your skills are going to be more circumscribed by the relative decrease in BP/Karma available, as will your contacts. As a sammie, I assume you will be putting near-max points into your stats. And despite the availability being within reach of a starting character, I can see a lot of GMs... discouraging starting with level 2 SA. At game start, two extra passes is very powerful. The Gunslinger Addept gives up MOST of their magic (and a lot of related BP/Karma) to get it. Even if they DO allow it, like the Gunslinger Adept you'll be very narowly focused.
On the second, why would I need EXTENDED masking? What do I need to have active when I walk through? I don't need a focus to mask my aura. I can actually just choose to look MUNDANE, so my display of Mojo, directed forst at the bored wage-mage, will come as even more of a shock. If you're using the Karma system, there is no reason (since the Karma system is optional anyway, the GM is free to decide on their own) you couldn't in theory buy level 1 at character creation.
And background counts aren't wards, they affect areas, and it would be hard to have a localized "area" of background count that would affect me enough to drop my magic and not affect the wage mage. Don't forget also, that there is a role-playing aspect to a background count: it feels different/wrong. Put a Technomancer in a RF shielded room and they might feel a little claustrophobic, and turning their own signal to 0 can make their skin crawl. To a mage, that kind of thing might feel cold, or slimy, or leave them fuzzy headed or even empty. It's not like it will be a surprise, and they will want to clear the area as soon as possible; The wage-mage isn't going to be happy hanging around in an area with a background count just so it might drop the Magic score of a masking mage enough to even the odds of them seeing through it.
And as a final thought, that monowhip only needs a single hit to show up on MAD/Cyberscanner, and it's illegal as drek. The availability to make it non-metalic takes it well out of the "starting" character's range, but even then the cyber scanner might detect the thing.

[Cthulhudreams]

I see why you have trouble appreciating the bio sammie - thought he has caught a huge nerf in SR4A with the bumping up of the cost of active softs.

The 3rd IP pass is awesome, and thats why you take it. At character generation, you are realistically the only guy with 3 IPs all the time. That is huge - and helps you remain competive. If your GM won't let you take, he is effectively telling you to play an awakened character, and you should listen to him unless you enjoy being useless. He'll probably complain about gymnastics dodge as well. Without 3IP and massive dodge pools you are indeed worse than a spirit, and that is just one of the many, many things a mage can just do (it's like 1 stat and one skill for him).

Seriously, if those are 'off the table' options, you just cannot compete with a mage or a rigger and should give up now as the GM is a jerk. Even with those options you've never going to be better in mortal combat than a rigger or a mage, so hey.

The second thing is the other roll a bio sammie fills in the team. Skillwires are perfectly legal, and many, many, many people have them. At the orginal price that are seriously great because 12k is bargin basement pricing for a skill rank 4. Sure you cannot take perception with it - but if someone needs to know how to use demolitions, scuba dive or indeed anything else, you can just know that. SR4A nerfs the hell out of this of course and I've yet to reconsider. It may make playing a sammie no longer possible or a reasonable decision, and cyberware will be confined to cyberzombies only.

As for weapons - concealbility on the monowhip is essentially perfect (and monofiliment is not a metal). If you don't like that, use a raceor sting.

You're also over estimating the cost of everything else a bio sammie can do. I just lifted this from a franktrollman post, pre every expansion book, so it should be better now.

[ Spoiler ]

250K can get you:
Synaptic Booster 2 (160K)
Muscle Toner 2 (16K)
Eyes Rating 4: (1.5K)
Flare Comp (750Y)
Low Light (1K)
Smart Link (1K)
Thermographic Vision (1K)
Vision Enhancment 3 (4.5K)
Vision Mag (1K)
(You have 3 capacity left, you may be able to convince your gamemaster to allow you to fit in a Laser Mic and a Cyberware Scanner, the rules are unclear as to whether you can do that or not).
Ears Rating 3: (1K)
Damper (750Y)
Enhancement 3 (4.5K)
Select Sound Filter 2 (2K)
Spatial Recognizer (750Y)
Ultrasound (6K)
Olfactory Booster 3 (3K)
Taste Booster 3 (4.5 K)


The Last Armor you will ever need:
Urban Explorer gear with thermoptic shielding.
Urban Explorer Jumpsuit, Chameleon Suit, Chemprotection 6, Fire Resistance 6, Insulation 6, Non-conductivity 6, Thermal Damping 6 - 7/8 armor at 15,900 nuyen.gif

And you'll need weapons. Legal or concealable weapons:
Monowhip (3K)
Smartlinked Raecor Sting (700Y)
Smartlinked Supersquirt (1K)
Lots of Narcoject! (1K)

And you'll need a big gun to pull out when the big guns happen:

Walther Sniper Rifle (5K)
Some Ammunitition (300Y)

And you'll need some crowd control, legal crowd control:
CS Gas Grenades (500Y)

You'll need some wheels:
Suzuki Mirage (6.5K)

You'll want a Commlink:
Hermes Ikon (3K)
W/ HAL (3K)

And some B&E and Spy gear:
Lockpicks
Directional Jammer
White Noise Generator
Microtranceiver
Some plastic restraints
Wire Clippers
Miniwelder
Microline and a grapple gun.

Low Lifestyle.

That is stylin right there. Pimping it all out with 4.05 Essence left, which means that you only suffer a -1 penalty when being magically healed. You can go anywhere, and carry an 8P, -4 AP weapon with you while doing it.