Why is Mystic Adept cheaper than Magician? Options

[Octopiii]

You're almost making the point when you keep putting up examples reliant on focuses and sustained spells to bring them up to par. And those -2 cum's can hurt... if you only have 1, maybe 2... it's not too bad... but those penalties add up (especially on some of your other skills such as say perception where you may only have 10 to start).

As opposed to regular mages who use foci? Besides, Mr. Charm does not have a single focus. I purposely made him to not be reliant on the same tricks as Commando Dan, who will only ever need to sustain his Improved Reflexes if he chooses to get greedy and go for that 4th pass.

Mr Charm has a 'facial' problem... social tests are made w/ Cha + skill... but are resisted with Wil + skill... outside of his one trick he's awful. You couldn't use him for any kind of negotiations. Using manipulation spells outside of combat is just asking for some really bad juju.

The only two social tests that are opposed with Will + Skill are Intimidation and Leadership. Even then, Kinesics gives him a +3 bonus to those tests. Negotiation is Charisma linked for the target. P. 130, SR4A.

Influence, by its nature, tends not lead the target to realize they've been hit by a spell. Alter Memory, by its nature, is designed to get away with mind rape.

Re: magic... adept power and the mage power are not the same... to get the same effect the mage would also need to sustain both Increase Reaction and Increase Reflexes. The only drawback to the bioware is cost (bigtime nuyen... but even then BP-wise outside of the avail and outright cost... it ends up being cheaper by far... and freeing up far more points of magic for other adept powers). The only other drawback is for healing, you take both the -essence penalty, and the awakened -2 penalty... making it a bit harder to heal.

We've discussed the suboptimal trade off Adept Improved Reflexes is; you use up a large portion of a limited resource. As for bioware, for 32 BP worth of resources and 25 BP worth of a lost Magic point, I can get +2 reaction in addition to my +2 passes. Clearly, a much better trade off is the 3 bp for the spell, 16 bp for the skill (which has more uses than just getting more passes), 6 bp of resources and 3 bp for binding that I used to get a sustaining focus. Hell, I don't even really need the sustaining focus, it's just nice to have.

[Octopiii]

Another day, another M.A.

Spider-man Sam:

[ Spoiler ]

B: 2
A: 1
R: 1
S: 1
C: 3
I: 4
L: 5
W: 5
E: 2
M:6 (4 Magic: Chaos Mage, 2 Adept)
(205bp)

Skills:
Pilot: Groundcraft: 4
Pilot: Aircraft: 4
Summoning: 6
Spellcasting: 4
Binding: 4
Gunnery: 4
Perception: 4
Hardware: 2
Computer: 3
Armorer: 2
First Aid: 4
Hacking: 3
(176bp)

Spells:
Fix
Reinforce
Vehicle Mask
Shapechange

Qualities:
Mystic Adept
Mentor Spirit: Dark King
-35bp of Negatives

Adept Powers:
Improved Ability 2: Gunnery (.5)
Improved Ability 2: Pilot: Groundcraft (.5)
Multi-Tasking (.5)
Enhanced Perception 2 (.5)

135k Nuyen for Commlink, programs, vehicles, drones, etc

Sam is a super Spider, who can wield not only drones but spirits at his enemies. One of his favorite party tricks is to give his Spirit of Man Reinforce, Fix, or Vehicle Mask (depending on the situation) to use upon his drones. With Multi-Tasking he keeps track of his meat body via cameras in his van, and serves as a very effective spy when using his drones. He utilizes the Command program to use his toys, and goes in Hot-Sim for the extra IP's and very handy +2 bonus.

When shooting things via his vehicles, he has a DP of (Command 6 + Gunnery 4 (6) (8 for Soon to be Speciality) + 2 Hot Sim) of 16. He Summons Spirits of Man with 12 dice (soon to be 14). If he gets caught in the Meat, he can use Shapechange to transform into a wolf or tiger or horse or some such and either fight or flee. He has a good Perception dp, and can use Observe in Detail 2x a pass (handy to analyze the area via his drones).

[Mikado]

Another day, another M.A.

Spider-man Sam:

[ Spoiler ]

B: 2
A: 1
R: 1
S: 1
C: 3
I: 4
L: 5
W: 5
E: 2
M:6 (4 Magic: Chaos Mage, 2 Adept)
(205bp)

Skills:
Pilot: Groundcraft: 4
Pilot: Aircraft: 4
Summoning: 6
Spellcasting: 4
Binding: 4
Gunnery: 4
Perception: 4
Hardware: 2
Computer: 3
Armorer: 2
First Aid: 4
Hacking: 3
(176bp)

Spells:
Fix
Reinforce
Vehicle Mask
Shapechange

Qualities:
Mystic Adept
Mentor Spirit: Dark King
-35bp of Negatives

Adept Powers:
Improved Ability 2: Gunnery (.5)
Improved Ability 2: Pilot: Groundcraft (.5)
Multi-Tasking (.5)
Enhanced Perception 2 (.5)

135k Nuyen for Commlink, programs, vehicles, drones, etc

Sam is a super Spider, who can wield not only drones but spirits at his enemies. One of his favorite party tricks is to give his Spirit of Man Reinforce, Fix, or Vehicle Mask (depending on the situation) to use upon his drones. With Multi-Tasking he keeps track of his meat body via cameras in his van, and serves as a very effective spy when using his drones. He utilizes the Command program to use his toys, and goes in Hot-Sim for the extra IP's and very handy +2 bonus.

When shooting things via his vehicles, he has a DP of (Command 6 + Gunnery 4 (6) (8 for Soon to be Speciality) + 2 Hot Sim) of 16. He Summons Spirits of Man with 12 dice (soon to be 14). If he gets caught in the Meat, he can use Shapechange to transform into a wolf or tiger or horse or some such and either fight or flee. He has a good Perception dp, and can use Observe in Detail 2x a pass (handy to analyze the area via his drones).

Yea...
... ... ...
And if you showed up to any table that I run (or play at if I am not GMing) I (or the running GM) would laugh at you... Agility, reaction and strength at 1. There is a word for that... What is it again...
I cry myself to sleep reading some of the characters people post here... (Well, not really... just lose more faith in humanity...)

Also, you need to overcast Fix and Reinforce just to hit the OR of the vehicle/drone.
Also, is there not a limit on shapechange for what you can turn into?Good luck turning into that great cat or horse. Wolf is ok but only really usefull for running away.

[toturi]

Sam is a super Spider, who can wield not only drones but spirits at his enemies. One of his favorite party tricks is to give his Spirit of Man Reinforce, Fix, or Vehicle Mask (depending on the situation) to use upon his drones. With Multi-Tasking he keeps track of his meat body via cameras in his van, and serves as a very effective spy when using his drones. He utilizes the Command program to use his toys, and goes in Hot-Sim for the extra IP's and very handy +2 bonus.

When shooting things via his vehicles, he has a DP of (Command 6 + Gunnery 4 (6) (8 for Soon to be Speciality) + 2 Hot Sim) of 16. He Summons Spirits of Man with 12 dice (soon to be 14). If he gets caught in the Meat, he can use Shapechange to transform into a wolf or tiger or horse or some such and either fight or flee. He has a good Perception dp, and can use Observe in Detail 2x a pass (handy to analyze the area via his drones).

Clear character design direction. Not particularly min-maxed. Certain clear vulnerabilities, several undefined negative qualities needed to better assess character.

All in all, while I would not disallow this character in my games, I will require a more definite Negative Qualities list and I would not hold out much hope that the PC would survive pass the first few games.

[Octopiii]

Yea...
... ... ...
And if you showed up to any table that I run (or play at if I am not GMing) I (or the running GM) would laugh at you... Agility, reaction and strength at 1. There is a word for that... What is it again...
I cry myself to sleep reading some of the characters people post here... (Well, not really... just lose more faith in humanity...)

Also, you need to overcast Fix and Reinforce just to hit the OR of the vehicle/drone.
Also, is there not a limit on shapechange for what you can turn into?Good luck turning into that great cat or horse. Wolf is ok but only really usefull for running away.

"I would laugh at you." I've noticed a tendency on these boards for people to belittle any character that does not fit in their pre-conceived notions of what a character "should" be - SR is big enough to fit quite a few types. "You mean a person who spends all day in the chair surfing the matrix is physically unfit? Well, he can't possibly be a runner then!" - yeah, right. It's terribly important for a security rigger to be in top physical shape, for, you know, all that running around he has to do. Or something. Besides, if it really wounds your world view so much, he has plenty of BP left over. Or make him a Dwarf for 5 bp more - problem solved! He now fits your stereotypes! Despite the fact that a Dwarf with a Body of 2 is the same as a Human with a Body of 1, but whatever, it's the numbers that are important, right?

As to your terribly keen observations:
1. Have the Spirit cast them - 5 is not out of reach for a Force 6 Spirit (and definitely not for a Force 8 ).
2. Yes, there is a limit, has to be within 2 points either way of your body. I think Sam can change into anything other than a Tiger off the top of my head. I would probably have him change into a bird, or mosquito, or some such to run away. As you so piercingly pointed out, he's not very good in physical confrontations. Someday, we will get a Critters book, and Shapechanging mages the world over can stop arguing with their GMs about what the body score is for animal X.

All in all, while I would not disallow this character in my games, I will require a more definite Negative Qualities list and I would not hold out much hope that the PC would survive pass the first few games.

I'm almost tempted to run this guy now. Unless you're the type of GM who regularly pulls out tanks and missiles, he should be fine hanging out in a Bulldog (Hardened Armor: 16). If someone comes near the van, I'm sure it will be modified to have weapons, and he can bring his spirit back to his presence within moments. And then change into a bug and fly away - I'd like to see you shoot a fly!

He would work great as an NPC, though. Super Spider!

[Cthulhudreams]

Assensing is a super powerful trick which mages bring to the table.

If you cannot assesse stuff, and you're occupying the 'mage' slot, you're just not a contributor.

[HappyDaze]

Unless you're the type of GM who regularly pulls out tanks and missiles, he should be fine hanging out in a Bulldog (Hardened Armor: 16).

Missles, tanks, or... a bunch of meddling kids and their dog, er... ork... that drop a few kilograms of demo charge under it while everyone is trying to enjoy a car show. Or maybe that's just my game... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Just playing, and don't forget your pants!

[toturi]

I'm almost tempted to run this guy now. Unless you're the type of GM who regularly pulls out tanks and missiles, he should be fine hanging out in a Bulldog (Hardened Armor: 16). If someone comes near the van, I'm sure it will be modified to have weapons, and he can bring his spirit back to his presence within moments. And then change into a bug and fly away - I'd like to see you shoot a fly!

I'm the kind of GM that allows you to kill yourself. Spend money for the van and the weapons, sure. Spirit? Sure. Change into bug? If the stats are in the book, sure.

Mr Lucky walks by and pops a cap on you? Sure.

[Mikado]

"I would laugh at you." I've noticed a tendency on these boards for people to belittle any character that does not fit in their pre-conceived notions of what a character "should" be - SR is big enough to fit quite a few types. "You mean a person who spends all day in the chair surfing the matrix is physically unfit? Well, he can't possibly be a runner then!" - yeah, right. It's terribly important for a security rigger to be in top physical shape, for, you know, all that running around he has to do. Or something. Besides, if it really wounds your world view so much, he has plenty of BP left over. Or make him a Dwarf for 5 bp more - problem solved! He now fits your stereotypes! Despite the fact that a Dwarf with a Body of 2 is the same as a Human with a Body of 1, but whatever, it's the numbers that are important, right?

No... The numbers are not important... I am not stupid either. I look at stats BEFORE race modifiers and after them. People want to make characters with 1's in attributes that is fine. I see it ONLY as someone who wants to min/max the system to near munchkin levels of ridiculous. I rarely see anyone write a back-story that explains the levels of handicap that a 1 in an attribute really is. ( I often wonder what the Dev's think when they see characters like this. Maybe one will let me know.)
As for my observations... So you over summon to get that force 6... My point was that you have to over (whatever) to make those spells do what you want. And over summoning is potentially more dangerous than overcasting.

I'm almost tempted to run this guy now. Unless you're the type of GM who regularly pulls out tanks and missiles, he should be fine hanging out in a Bulldog (Hardened Armor: 16). If someone comes near the van, I'm sure it will be modified to have weapons, and he can bring his spirit back to his presence within moments. And then change into a bug and fly away - I'd like to see you shoot a fly!

Tanks and missiles... can't remember when I ever used these against any of my players... Usually when they are sporting the same equipment.
You wait in your van while the rest of the team gets gunned down while they are in the Wi-Fi inhibiting paint building.

But I will end this before I get a PM from a Mod.

[Octopiii]

Assensing is a super powerful trick which mages bring to the table.

If you cannot assesse stuff, and you're occupying the 'mage' slot, you're just not a contributor.

A bizarre claim. Mystic Adepts are not mages. They are Adepts who have access to mage abilities. I will say again: do you expect your super ninja adept type to assense? No? Then why expect the M.A. to do so? Each of the characters I have posted are by any sense of the word "contributors". Your assertion that leaving out one part of the magic chapter that Adepts almost never have access to anyway makes a character worthless is certainly an interesting claim. I was also unaware that once you have one awakened person on your team, that precludes any other awakened characters, such that making a M.A. automatically fills your mage "slot".

Missles, tanks, or... a bunch of meddling kids and their dog, er... ork... that drop a few kilograms of demo charge under it while everyone is trying to enjoy a car show. Or maybe that's just my game... biggrin.gif

Just playing, and don't forget your pants!

Phah, Hamburger does not care for pants. He is a shorts man. A very short shorts man!

I'm the kind of GM that allows you to kill yourself. Spend money for the van and the weapons, sure. Spirit? Sure. Change into bug? If the stats are in the book, sure.

Mr Lucky walks by and pops a cap on you? Sure.

Well, if you're the kind of GM that lets NPCs burn edge for critical successes, no one is really safe no matter what their build, so it's a bit of a moot point.

Besides, I am curious to see how you would rule that an NPC a: saw the mosquito in the middle of a firefight, and b: realized that the mosquito was really the mage he was gunning for in the first place. It would be quite the paranoid security guard that took a break from the dodging the van's suppressive fire to shoot at a fly leaving the van. There is a long, fine tradition of Riggers and Hackers physically hanging out in vans while their teammates do their thing and providing matrix support. I am not sure what is causing the incredulity of this concept.

I rarely see anyone write a back-story that explains the levels of handicap that a 1 in an attribute really is. ( I often wonder what the Dev's think when they see characters like this. Maybe one will let me know.)
As for my observations... So you over summon to get that force 6... My point was that you have to over (whatever) to make those spells do what you want. And over summoning is potentially more dangerous than overcasting.

Yes, because in real life, hackers are never, ever fat slobs who don't get exercise. Therefore, to have a fat slob hacker without a long, emo backstory involving something like car accidents and dear aunt sally not being able to afford medical bills would clearly defy all common sense and logic. Rating 1 is considered "weak": p.67, SR4A. Weak does not imply crippled. It implies exactly the definition of weak.

Overcasting is generally worth it, no matter the mage. You are free to houserule anything you want re: overcasting. As for over-summoning; yes it's dangerous, but if you summon (then bind) during downtime you're generally in the clear. Also, First Aid is pretty useful in dealing with pesky problems such as damage - it's a good thing Sam has First Aid, no?

Tanks and missiles... can't remember when I ever used these against any of my players... Usually when they are sporting the same equipment.
You wait in your van while the rest of the team gets gunned down while they are in the Wi-Fi inhibiting paint building.

Unwired has mini(?) drones that serve as routers for wireless signals to get around the problem of Wi-Fi inhabiting paint. They're used in one of the fictions at the end of Runner's Companion (the one with Clockwork and the lightning strike).

Regardless, Sam is just an example, as are Mr. Charm and Commando Dan, that Mystic Adepts are not gimped. For Sam, astral perception/projection would be used almost never; he can't be in the matrix and be astrally perceiving at the same time after all. He has micro/mini drones to serve as scouting devices, and importantly, they can see things that he wouldn't be able to see from the astral.

But I will end this before I get a PM from a Mod.

I don't see why a Mod would have an issue with this conversation, as it is relatively polite and there have been no personal attacks. I'm enjoying it, and I think a healthy argument will people to reconsider the received wisdom that M.A.'s are "gimped". I maintain that M.A.'s are perfectly balanced: sure, they haven no access to astral realms, but they can summon spirits and cast spells and counterspell, and accesses the unique powers that only adepts can get! How is that gimped? Honestly? Once you get past the idea that "They're just mages who can't use astral" you'll see the utility that an M.A. can bring to the team. It's all in the name, after all: Mystic Adepts.

EDIT: For philosophy.

[HappyDaze]

Phah, Hamburger does not care for pants. He is a shorts man. A very short shorts man!

Now my head is filled with bad images of Lt. Dangle from Reno 911 in SR.

[toturi]

Well, if you're the kind of GM that lets NPCs burn edge for critical successes, no one is really safe no matter what their build, so it's a bit of a moot point.

Besides, I am curious to see how you would rule that an NPC a: saw the mosquito in the middle of a firefight, and b: realized that the mosquito was really the mage he was gunning for in the first place. It would be quite the paranoid security guard that took a break from the dodging the van's suppressive fire to shoot at a fly leaving the van. There is a long, fine tradition of Riggers and Hackers physically hanging out in vans while their teammates do their thing and providing matrix support. I am not sure what is causing the incredulity of this concept.

I am the kind of GM that allows the NPCs to do exactly what the rules allow them to do. Grunts are able to do certain things, Prime Runners can possibly do a lot more, as per the rules.

Assuming that there is a mosquito critter for you to shapeshift into in SR4A, the NPC makes a Perception check against an appropriately high Threshold. Once he manages to perceive the target, he may make an attack against it. He may or may not choose to do so. Also the NPCs may be using area effect weapons.

I am not incredulous about this concept. I am saying that it may not be as survivable as other PCs.

[Octopiii]

I am the kind of GM that allows the NPCs to do exactly what the rules allow them to do. Grunts are able to do certain things, Prime Runners can possibly do a lot more, as per the rules.

Assuming that there is a mosquito critter for you to shapeshift into in SR4A, the NPC makes a Perception check against an appropriately high Threshold. Once he manages to perceive the target, he may make an attack against it. He may or may not choose to do so. Also the NPCs may be using area effect weapons.

I am not incredulous about this concept. I am saying that it may not be as survivable as other PCs.

Fair enough, and it is a different argument than the one we are currently having so I'll let that be.

"Assuming there is a mosquito critter"? Are there no Mosquitoes in the future? The BBB only lists 4 non-paranormal critters. So a Cat Shaman could not shapechange into, say, a cat because there are no stats for it listed? Sometimes, we need to be able to fill in the blanks - it's bizarre to state that a spell whose text lets you change into any non-paranormal critter really only allows you to change into one of 4 non-paranormal critters because those are the only ones listed in the book. The text even specifically states "Eagle Form" even though there are no stats listed for Eagles in the book - so should we disallow that? If a mosquito is too small, there is always everyone's favorite flying rat, the Pigeon.

"I am not incredulous about this concept. I am saying that it may not be as survivable as other PCs"

Eh, I'll put Sam up against a Technomancer in the survivability department any day.

[toturi]

"Assuming there is a mosquito critter"? Are there no Mosquitoes in the future? The BBB only lists 4 non-paranormal critters. So a Cat Shaman could not shapechange into, say, a cat because there are no stats for it listed? Sometimes, we need to be able to fill in the blanks - it's bizarre to state that a spell whose text lets you change into any non-paranormal critter really only allows you to change into one of 4 non-paranormal critters because those are the only ones listed in the book. The text even specifically states "Eagle Form" even though there are no stats listed for Eagles in the book - so should we disallow that? If a mosquito is too small, there is always everyone's favorite flying rat, the Pigeon.

"I am not incredulous about this concept. I am saying that it may not be as survivable as other PCs"

Eh, I'll put Sam up against a Technomancer in the survivability department any day.

The point is that I run a RAW game. You can show me the RAW stats of a cat? Sure, then go ahead.

[Octopiii]

The point is that I run a RAW game. You can show me the RAW stats of a cat? Sure, then go ahead.

Oh my. So what do you have to say about Eagle Form then? It's specifically mentioned in the spell write up, yet there is no Eagle listed in the book - since there's no RAW definition, you would rule that a Mage cannot shift into an Eagle Form because there are no stats for it? That is taking RAW to the extreme.

[toturi]

Oh my. So what do you have to say about Eagle Form then? It's specifically mentioned in the spell write up, yet there is no Eagle listed in the book - since there's no RAW definition, you would rule that a Mage cannot shift into an Eagle Form because there are no stats for it? That is taking RAW to the extreme.

There is no extreme RAW, it either is RAW or it is not. If, as you say, per spell description, there is explicitly an eagle form, then that is RAW. You may shapeshift into an eagle. But without any RAW eagle stats, the stats of the eagle itself is not RAW.

But this is besides the point. The point is that with very low Reaction and low Bod, the long term survivability of the character is doubtful, even if the character stays in the vehicle during runs and uses shapeshifting.

[Cthulhudreams]

A bizarre claim. Mystic Adepts are not mages. They are Adepts who have access to mage abilities. I will say again: do you expect your super ninja adept type to assense? No? Then why expect the M.A. to do so? Each of the characters I have posted are by any sense of the word "contributors". Your assertion that leaving out one part of the magic chapter that Adepts almost never have access to anyway makes a character worthless is certainly an interesting claim. I was also unaware that once you have one awakened person on your team, that precludes any other awakened characters, such that making a M.A. automatically fills your mage "slot".

Err, they cast spells and summon spirits, the other things I expect the mage on the team to do. Think of a shadowrun team. You have a variety of roles to fill, and a mystic adept is either wasting points on summoning very low force spirits or low force spells, and would have been better off as an adept, or he's just a mage that is behind the 8-ball on doing the mage things in return for doing things that other team members already do.

[HappyDaze]

Err, they cast spells and summon spirits, the other things I expect the mage on the team to do. Think of a shadowrun team. You have a variety of roles to fill, and a mystic adept is either wasting points on summoning very low force spirits or low force spells, and would have been better off as an adept, or he's just a mage that is behind the 8-ball on doing the mage things in return for doing things that other team members already do.

That's a mightly limited viewpoint. There are no hard requirements on or limits to roles in SR. Just because someone can cast spells and summon spirits doesn't mean they should be expected to be able to go astral anymore than every hacker should also be expected to be a competent rigger or that every Steet Sam should be able to cover both melee and ranged combat equally well.

[Cthulhudreams]

Sure sure, but if you cannot do it, someone else on the team has to. So if the rigger cannot manage spying with flying bugs, you better have a pretty good sniper who can fill in the gap. Likewise, if you have an invul-ro troll throwing down maximum firepower in mortal combat, the drone rigger doesn't need drones with semi automatic grenade launchers, because someone else has that covered.

It is very awkward for other people to do assensing, but you can get the capability via alternative routes. However, that awkwardness typically makes it desirable that the guy who summons spirits and casts spells is also the guy that assenses stuff. I had a list of things a shadowrun team should have someone on the team who can do, but I cannot find it. (Incidently, the sammie melee/ranged thing is silly - it's not specific capabilities, it is delivering on specific outcomes. Survillence of Astral, Electronic and Physical targets is something shadowrun teams need to do, so someone on your team needs to be able to do it. However, melee combat isn't always required. If the Sammie can bust out silenced SMGs and just blow them away, that is just as good as stabbing them)

[HappyDaze]

There is no extreme RAW, it either is RAW or it is not.

Warning: Playing RAW games vastly increases your change of aquiring acceptance of game-borne idiocy. RAWdogging the game will force numerous breaks in any attempt at immersion. Please use a COoKER to keep your games sane.

For example, two common sedans (use Mercury Comet for stats - as it's the only sedan allowed by RAW) are travelling on the street at a calm pace of 60 km/h (50 m/turn). One is following closely behind the other but is having a bad day so he decides to speed up a bit and 'bump' the other vehicle. He accelerates to 65 m/turn and bumps the vehicle. The result is that the bumped vehicle takes 20P damage and the bumping vehicle takes 10P. Both resist with 16 dice, and since the book encourages us to 'buy the hits', this 'bump' will inflict 16 damage on the bumped vehicle and 6 damage to the bumping vehicle. Since both of these vehicles have 13 boxes on their condition monitor, this means the bumped vehicle is totally destroyed while the bumping vehicle is moderately damaged. All of this from a crash that should - using real world physics - been no different than a car travelling at 18 km/h striking a stationary vehicle. That's RAW for you.

[HappyDaze]

Sure sure, but if you cannot do it, someone else on the team has to.

No they don't. Not every ability has to appear in every team. If you can summon a spirit, have it assense the target and use your spirit-summoner link to know what it finds.

[Cthulhudreams]

Please, its not every ability, it is every capability.

Would you have a shadowrun team that was incapable of covert entry? What about incapable of fighting corporate security? What about incapable of walking into a secure area in plain daylight?

Someone really does need these capabilities for the conventional 'shadowruns' to work. Just like you need someone with assensing - but anyway, I don't think a low force spirit is going to roll enough hits, but obviously YMMV. So lets look at the tangible examples and see if they can assense via summoning spirits.

A) the rigger is total crap. He doesn't have a control rig, and his reaction is so low as to make jumping in pointless, so he's a mage that is trading off two functional points of magic.. for what? two useless abilities? I Ugess he can command things via the drones.. but meh. And he doesn;t have counterspelling, and if he did he could never use it, so his team is going to be in trouble verses a mage. Unless of course they have another mage and this guy is supposed to be the rigger.. I dunno. Wouldn't be too bad in a team of 4 with a dedicated mage, face and totally invisible street sammie, as the spirits add over a rigger.

B) The troll commando isn't going to cover the assensing base, as he's going to have a tough time summoning high force spirits, and low force spirits don't roll enough dice to get decent numbers of hits. Nor can the troll deal with its own signature if it casts a spell.

Edit: C) The face.. isn't to bad actually I guess. Missing summoning is bad, especially as you need points for willpower and buying skills up with karma is just pain.

Its not inspiring stuff.

[HappyDaze]

Please, its not every ability, it is every capability.

I don't necessarily agree. Not every team is a well-rounded jack-of-all-trades type. Some are very specialized and only take jobs that fit with that specialty.

Would you have a shadowrun team that was incapable of covert entry? What about incapable of fighting corporate security? What about incapable of walking into a secure area in plain daylight?

Each of those could be done with certain specialist teams. I've seen a SR3 game where everyone played otaku kids that would have had trouble with all three of those areas - yet the game was still fun for the players.

Someone really does need these capabilities for the conventional 'shadowruns' to work. Just like you need someone with assensing

Assensing is just one skill. This disagrees with your first point since Assensing is an ability rather than a capability. It ahould be perfectly viable to have an entire group without Assensing just as you can have an entire group without Automatics or Gymnastics.

[DuctShuiTengu]

Would you have a shadowrun team that was incapable of covert entry? What about incapable of fighting corporate security? What about incapable of walking into a secure area in plain daylight?

Yes. The resulting team will be more specialized than one that covers all their bases. They're not going to take the jobs that rely on capabilities they don't have (and after a while, Johnsons will stop trying to hire them for those jobs). Now, there willl likely still be occasions where the need for those capabilities will successfully sneak up on them, but I'd expect these to result in interesting efforts by the team to work around this weakness.

[Cthulhudreams]

The capability is the ability to spot astral/magical/cybernetic threats, conduct astral surveillance, and otherwise interact with the astral.

You also ideally want someone who can act as an astral carrier for watcher ganks, track the cyber zombie, identify spell signatures and warn you the toxic mage is coming. Again, I'm wishing for the list, because it has a better articulated list of required capabilities and you can see the interactions/requirements.

Yes. The resulting team will be more specialized than one that covers all their bases. They're not going to take the jobs that rely on capabilities they don't have (and after a while, Johnsons will stop trying to hire them for those jobs). Now, there willl likely still be occasions where the need for those capabilities will successfully sneak up on them, but I'd expect these to result in interesting efforts by the team to work around this weakness.

Yup, it is definitely possible. But look, we could also play a game of shadowrun where the players timeslip into the past and assist lenardo da vinci in overthrowing the facist imperium in 1246 AD. For a general concept of what shadowrun is, we need a common reference, which is published adventures and the SR missions series. Having a game of shadowrun where there is no magic at all that features in gameplay because the players are all Okatu and have nothing that can stop Renraku following them around with watcher spirits who endlessly radio in their location for a succession of fire spirits if they get traced even once is no less absurd.