Pistol Specializations, I can't seem to figure this out Options

[Muspellsheimr]

Actually your wrong bro. The Deputy is not a semi-automatic. Granted, it has the SA firing rate (which stands for Single Action, not Semi-Automatic), but it is a revolver. Anything with 'cy' listed in the ammo is a revolver. Anything with 'c' listed in the ammo is a semi-automatic.

Incorrect.

SS = Single Shot.
SA = Semi-Automatic
BF = Burst Fire
FA = Full Auto


There is absolutely nothing indicating that if it is a revolver, it cannot be semi-auto. Further, there is nothing supporting the idea that a clip-loaded weapon is always semi-auto.

[Daishi]

There are two definitions of semi-automatic at play in this discussion that do not completely overlap and that needs to be clearly acknowledged.

(1) A game mechanic firing rate
(2) A real world loading mechanism for firearms

The Deputy qualifies under (1) but not under (2).

Which meaning applies as a specialization? The inclusion of Revolvers as a category suggests (2) was the intention, but use of the specific game term "Semi Automatic" without any context has a precedence that leads (1) to be the stricter reading and more likely chosen option.

I have no disagreement with anyone who reads the rules and answers that (1) is the meaning of the specialization. As a rules lawyer, I would agree. However, that also makes the Semi Automatic specialization excessively expansive, especially when considering the low cost of a Firing Rate Mod that can bring the few non SA pistols under the purview of that specialization. As a remedy I would think it better to go one of two ways:

(a) Change the specialization list to match the pistol classification used in game (Holdout, Light, Heavy, Taser)
(b) Interpret the specialization list as by fluffy operation, not game mechanic.

Currently, I'm going with (b) which would place the Deputy (or a customized Warhawk) as a revolver only and not a semi automatic.

[Muspellsheimr]

Or...

Even if a pistol is capable of Semi-Automatic fire, it is currently a Burst Fire weapon if you are using it to fire bursts - and as such, would not receive benefit of a SA specialization.

It is because of this that I rarely specialize in firing modes, instead using weapon category (I like having both SA & BF available).

[Warlordtheft]

I owned a black powder revolver for a short time, and I have fired pistols a couple times, but I apparently don't give off the alpha male vibe to my friends, so they don't invite me to their gun outtings. A shame really, because I seem to be naturally good (not awesome, just good) with pistols.

I still have my 1860 Remington Army...differrentt from firing a modern double action for sure. Really though most of the skills used with firearms are highly transferable from on type (pistols) to another(rifles).

[kigmatzomat]

Whilst I have spent time studying various firearms and associated technologies I unfortunately never had the opportunity to actually fire one. I would readily defer to one who has actually spent time on the range.

There are some ergonomic issues with holdouts and double action revolvers.

See, a holdout is generally so small that your pinky usually doesn't touch the grip. Some of them the ring finger isn't doing a lot either. That makes it much less stable in hand. Combined with the minimal barrel and you've got no sight picture. Recoil is magnified because a) the gun weighs a lot less and b) the afore mentioned grip issues. Plus, muzzleblast is a LOT closer to your hand.

The SA revolvers, properly double action revolvers, typically require a lot more work at the trigger. In an autoloader or single action revolver your trigger pull just drops the hammer. The DA revolver has the trigger pull rotate the barrel, pull back the hammer and drop it. That means the gun has torque and motion in two directions along the barrel axis prior to the round actually going off. All that adds up to a noticeably different shooting experience. I knew one guy who kept getting distracted by the motion of the cylinder (he was kinda OCD/ADD) and just couldn't use double actions with any skill.

Oh and recoil in revolvers can be a lot more interesting. A recoil-operated autoloader uses some of the energy to cycle rounds but the big difference is that the slide mechanism extends the recoil duration, lowering the peak experienced force. Revolvers don't have that slide to spread out recoil so there's a lot "sharper" feel to a revolver.

This comes from a shooter who's favorite "banger" is a CZ52 pistol. Oh, how that muzzle flash lights up a range!

[Mäx]

I have always read the semi-automatic speciality as meaning This pistol type

[Wounded Ronin]

The SA revolvers, properly double action revolvers, typically require a lot more work at the trigger. In an autoloader or single action revolver your trigger pull just drops the hammer. The DA revolver has the trigger pull rotate the barrel, pull back the hammer and drop it. That means the gun has torque and motion in two directions along the barrel axis prior to the round actually going off. All that adds up to a noticeably different shooting experience.

Exactly. For best results, I have to quickly adjust my trigger finger between my first (double action) and second (single action) shot on my P97DC when I draw and fire two or more times.

[Kerenshara]

There are some ergonomic issues with holdouts and double action revolvers.

See, a holdout is generally so small that your pinky usually doesn't touch the grip. Some of them the ring finger isn't doing a lot either. That makes it much less stable in hand. Combined with the minimal barrel and you've got no sight picture. Recoil is magnified because a) the gun weighs a lot less and b) the afore mentioned grip issues. Plus, muzzleblast is a LOT closer to your hand.

The SA revolvers, properly double action revolvers, typically require a lot more work at the trigger. In an autoloader or single action revolver your trigger pull just drops the hammer. The DA revolver has the trigger pull rotate the barrel, pull back the hammer and drop it. That means the gun has torque and motion in two directions along the barrel axis prior to the round actually going off. All that adds up to a noticeably different shooting experience. I knew one guy who kept getting distracted by the motion of the cylinder (he was kinda OCD/ADD) and just couldn't use double actions with any skill.

Oh and recoil in revolvers can be a lot more interesting. A recoil-operated autoloader uses some of the energy to cycle rounds but the big difference is that the slide mechanism extends the recoil duration, lowering the peak experienced force. Revolvers don't have that slide to spread out recoil so there's a lot "sharper" feel to a revolver.

This comes from a shooter who's favorite "banger" is a CZ52 pistol. Oh, how that muzzle flash lights up a range!

Thank you for taking the time to craft this answer. It addresses some of whatI tried to but gives a better real-world example of why it might "feel" diferent enough to warrant a separate specialization. Wonderful!

[Draco18s]

Whilst I have spent time studying various firearms and associated technologies I unfortunately never had the opportunity to actually fire one. I would readily defer to one who has actually spent time on the range. It's kind of embarassing that as much as I love and study firearms I have never fired one. Ah, c'est la vie.

Only BB guns, .22 rifles, and a black powder rifle (once) here. Good ol' boy scouts (now if only they'd kept Bee Keeping...)

[Wounded Ronin]

I think that everybody should be trained and practiced in the operation of a variety of firearms. I also think that everybody should practice at least one combative sport. I think it would help everyone stay on the same page in life.

[Kingboy]

Does that come with an obligatory side of dance, painting, poetry and calligraphy as well?

[Draco18s]

Does that come with an obligatory side of dance, painting, poetry and calligraphy as well?

I had calligraphy in elementary school.

[hyzmarca]

The SA revolvers, properly double action revolvers, typically require a lot more work at the trigger. In an autoloader or single action revolver your trigger pull just drops the hammer. The DA revolver has the trigger pull rotate the barrel, pull back the hammer and drop it.

A semi-automatic revolver isn't a double action revolver. A semi-automatic revolver is a semi-automatic revolver. A revolver that uses the force of recoil to spin the cylinder. They are very rare, but a few do exist, most prominently the Mateba Unica 6 and the Welby-Fosbery.

I'm going to assume that the SA revolvers in SR are of this type, because there is no rule prohibiting one from modifying them for burst fire, which would only be possible with an actual semi-automatic mechanism.

[Daishi]

A semi-automatic revolver isn't a double action revolver. A semi-automatic revolver is a semi-automatic revolver. A revolver that uses the force of recoil to spin the cylinder. They are very rare, but a few do exist, most prominently the Mateba Unica 6 and the Welby-Frosby.

I'm going to assume that the SA revolvers in SR are of this type, because there is no rule prohibiting one from modifying them for burst fire, which would only be possible with an actual semi-automatic mechanism.

Semi Automatic (SA) the game term does not specifically mean a self-loading semi-automatic firearm. It just means the weapon may fire single rounds twice in the same Action Phase, regardless of the loading mechanism. Nothing more, nothing less. This usually entails a self-loading semi-automatic mechanism as described in the link (from which the game term inherits the name), but there are numerous exceptions. SA weapons can also include double-action revolvers, chain guns, pump action shotguns, multi-barrel weapons, lasers, and more. None of these weapons are recoil-operated, but they are considered to be Semi Automatic (the game term) because of their rate of fire. It is thus reasonable, though sometimes confusing, to describe a double-action revolver as a semi automatic revolver for Shadowrun purposes.

[DuctShuiTengu]

A semi-automatic revolver isn't a double action revolver. A semi-automatic revolver is a semi-automatic revolver. A revolver that uses the force of recoil to spin the cylinder. They are very rare, but a few do exist, most prominently the Mateba Unica 6 and the Welby-Frosby.

I'm going to assume that the SA revolvers in SR are of this type, because there is no rule prohibiting one from modifying them for burst fire, which would only be possible with an actual semi-automatic mechanism.

The rules also allow modifying the two bolt-action rifles in Arsenal to burst fire or full-auto fire.

[Draco18s]

The rules also allow modifying the two bolt-action rifles in Arsenal to burst fire or full-auto fire.

But they have a clip of 1. You'd never be able to take advantage of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
(There's a 7P large caliber pistol I wanted to do the same thing to)

[Wounded Ronin]

Does that come with an obligatory side of dance, painting, poetry and calligraphy as well?

Hmm. Yes, but only if by "dance", you mean "judo".

[kzt]

No, Kata.

[crash2029]

This is why when I write up my charsheets I write the skill as Pistols (autoloaders).

[Draco18s]

I generally do:

[firearm skill] ([actual name of the weapon I'm purchasing])

Why? Because I generally don't lose my weapons (never happened).

[overcannon]

I have always read the semi-automatic speciality as meaning This pistol type

The funny thing is that the third picture on that page is a Holdout.

[Mäx]

The funny thing is that the third picture on that page is a Holdout.

Don't you mean the fourth one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Jackstand]

In the case of the Semi-Automatics specialization, I find that it's much more likely to indicate to the type of gun rather than the mode of fire for three reasons:

1. All of the other specializations refer to types of guns, rather than firing modes.
2. There is only one singular Semi-Automatic mode of fire, so the use of the plural requires that it be something else.
3. Since it cannot refer to the firing mode, it is probable that this specialization works in the same way as the others.

I would also simply also allow specialization in Heavy or Light Pistols, since I take the listed specializations to be suggestions and in no way comprehensive.

[Muspellsheimr]

In the case of the Semi-Automatics specialization, I find that it's much more likely to indicate to the type of gun rather than the mode of fire for three reasons:

1. All of the other specializations refer to types of guns, rather than firing modes.

Which means nothing.

2. There is only one singular Semi-Automatic mode of fire, so the use of the plural requires that it be something else.

The plural 'Semi-Automatics' means Semi-Automatic Weapons, as in it applies to more than a single semi-auto weapon.

3. Since it cannot refer to the firing mode, it is probable that this specialization works in the same way as the others.

Bullshit. See above.



There is no game information for determining if a weapon is semi-auto or not, except for its firing mode. Thus, the semi-auto specialization applies based on the firing mode.

[Wounded Ronin]

No, Kata.

Pwnt!



By the way, today I participated in a steel shooting event using my Ruger. I don't feel that I did really well, and one thing that I recall as having been slightly difficult in the context of the mental and time pressure of the event was that double action (classic revolver style) trigger pull as the first pull, and then single action (classic semi auto) style trigger pull subsequently. The first few times I went through that I felt like it kind of threw my mental focus and was a bit jarring, again, in the context of some mental pressure.

So there you go, seperate skill groups, I guess.