Pistol Specializations, I can't seem to figure this out Options

[Mäx]

Thus, the semi-auto specialization applies based on the firing mode.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
No, it's pretty damm obvious when looking at all the other weapon specializations that it applies based on weapon type.
I cann't understand how someone can arrive to any other conclusion.

[Zaranthan]

I'd understand being confused at first, since semi-auto isn't really a category of pistols. But, it's fairly obvious that "Taser," "Revolver," and "Holdout" are not firing modes. Concluding that the fourth specialization is somehow unique is just silly. Insisting that it is despite having people point how the differences is just needlessly argumentative, possibly to the point of trolling.

[Daishi]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
No, it's pretty damm obvious when looking at all the other weapon specializations that it applies based on weapon type.
I cann't understand how someone can arrive to any other conclusion.

Then I shall explain how it's very simple to arrive at the conclusion that the pistol specialization refers to firing rate. There is not a single weapon in Shadowrun 4 that is explicitly described as semi-automatic in terms of operation, only firing rate. The only time the term "Semi Automatic" is used in the core book that is not explicitly talking about firing rates is when discussing pistol specialization. There it is used ambiguously without providing any definition contrary to the firing rate usage present everywhere else. Furthermore, the only Single Shot pistols (as in, don't use SA firing rates) in the core book are Tasers, Holdouts and Revolvers - the other specialization options.

If a person did not know the technical definition of semi-automatic in the real world (a common scenario, even among gamers), their only reasonable conclusion from reading the SR4 core book would be that the Semi Automatic pistol specialization refers to the firing rate. One can combine a knowledge of real firearm operation and the lack of an explicit reference to firing rates when discussing Pistol specialization to infer that the intended meaning of the specialization was mode of operation, but there is no material support within the core book (or Arsenal for that matter) for that inference.

[Daishi]

I'd understand being confused at first, since semi-auto isn't really a category of pistols. But, it's fairly obvious that "Taser," "Revolver," and "Holdout" are not firing modes. Concluding that the fourth specialization is somehow unique is just silly.

It's not that silly nor unique. The only pistols in the core rule book without a SA firing mode are Tasers, Holdouts, and Revolvers. It's peculiar and sloppy, but there would still appear to be a correlation between firing mode and specialization.

[overcannon]

Don't you mean the fourth one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I must have missed the top one.

[crash2029]

I generally do:

[firearm skill] ([actual name of the weapon I'm purchasing])

Why? Because I generally don't lose my weapons (never happened).

Actually this happened to me once. We were playing Dreamchipper, and my face/thief Car was chasing Val/Cleo down the docks when she went into the drink. So Car dove in after her. Car then found that it is really hard to swim wearing a longcoat filled with gear, including his concealed holster and p-sec. He had to strip off the coat in order not to drown. He swam after her underneath the dock, where she surfaced on the other side. She was hauled out of the water by Car's teammates, followed by Car. Car remained conscious long enough to tell her she owed him another gun before he passed out.

[Wounded Ronin]

You're one of those people who doesn't tag Swimming when you start a game of Deus Ex, right?

[crash2029]

No, electronics, computer, and lockpicking.

[Kingboy]

Hmm. Yes, but only if by "dance", you mean "judo".

Actually no, I meant dance. Pick your flavour, I don't care, but something that is done simply for recreational/aesthetic reasons with little to no martial applications outside of the general physical fitness effects.

[Jhaiisiin]

Take Pilot Aircraft, for example. The specializations include: Fixed-Wing, Lighter-Than-Air, Remote Operation, Rotary Wing, Tilt Wing, Vectored Thrust. Name one vehicle you can operate with "Remote Operation" that doesn't overlap with any of the other categories. If your skill is 4, and your specialization is Remote Operation, you can fly Fixed-Wing aircraft just fine with skill 4, but when you use Remote Operation, you really excel. If your specialization was Fixed-Wing, you would excel with Fixed-Wing, whether you were flying by Remote Operation or not.

I know this is really belated and somewhat off topic, but I have to object to this. Flying a fixed-wing aircraft personally and flying it by remote are *not* the same thing. I've flown both powered and unpowered aircraft before, and I can vouch that being physically in charge is so much more than piloting by remote.

[Wounded Ronin]

Actually no, I meant dance. Pick your flavour, I don't care, but something that is done simply for recreational/aesthetic reasons with little to no martial applications outside of the general physical fitness effects.

Let's see. There are more than one ways that I can respond to this, but since I played a Deus Ex mod yesterday I have to type them all in a list instead of only putting one.

1.) So, like that other poster said, kata. BURRRRNNN!
2.) Actually, you're probably right. Many people in the US are overweight, out of shape, and unweildly. If they all got plyometric exercise and stretching through dance, it would make us all better off.
3.) NAARG NOT VIOLENT ENOUGH!!!!

[Kingboy]

1.) So, like that other poster said, kata. BURRRRNNN!

Yes of course, because god knows nothing is effective in the world till we've rebranded every universal concept with some ill-fitting oriental name for it.

[Dumori]

Yes of course, because god knows nothing is effective in the world till we've rebranded every universal concept with some ill-fitting oriental name for it.

Amen

[crash2029]

I hereby offer the final word on this topic, as follows.

Pistol specializations shall be in the type of operation they utilize, except when they are not.

There. Problem solved.

Maybe I should run for office someday...

[Writer]

I know this is really belated and somewhat off topic, but I have to object to this. Flying a fixed-wing aircraft personally and flying it by remote are *not* the same thing. I've flown both powered and unpowered aircraft before, and I can vouch that being physically in charge is so much more than piloting by remote.

I was referring to the Shadowrun game mechanics of skill specialization and how they can overlap. The skill I used as an example is Pilot Aircraft. This skill covers ANY aircraft. The specialization of "Remote Operation" gives a bonus to ANY remote operation of ANY aircraft, but does not confer a bonus to fixed wing aircraft if not remotely operated. However, the specialization Fixed Wing gives a bonus to ANY fixed wing aircraft, whether it is remotely operated or not, but does not confer any bonus to non-fixed-wing aircraft, remotely operated or not. There is an overlap here.

Comparing real life examples of physically flying an aircraft and remotely operating an aircraft to Shadowrun's abstraction of the Pilot Aircraft skill is merely silly. Sure, there are major differences between flying a fixed wing aircraft in person and remotely, but from what I have heard from various pilots, there is a larger gap between fixed wing and rotary wing and lighter than air aircraft. It is still all covered by one single little number, with an occasional specialization bonus.

I wasn't making a statement about real life skills. I was commenting on the game mechanics.

[Jhaiisiin]

Fair enough. It just seemed that we'd had 2 pages of people talking real life to justify the varied specializations of firearms. I took that as an opportunity to use real life experience of my own to comment on your example. My apologies for being "silly."

[kigmatzomat]

I think the point is that you haven't remote piloted an aircraft remotely via an infinite bandwidth wireless connection using VR using a direct neural connection so your experience with remote flight doesn't pertain to the SR-verse.

[Wounded Ronin]

Yes of course, because god knows nothing is effective in the world till we've rebranded every universal concept with some ill-fitting oriental name for it.

Pretty much. That's why your "sword" only does STR M damage or whatever it was, whereas the "katana" does STR + 3 M damage. That +3 appears when you start speaking Japanese.

It's also like in Oriental Adventures, where if you're a non-monk white man in a proto-European medieval kingdom trying to punch someone you do negligable amounts of damage, but if you're a non-monk asian man in an Oriental Adventures campaign with the "karate" skill your punches suddenly do 1d6 damage before STR bonuses. Which recall is similar to the damage a non-monk white man would only do if he were swinging a mace.

[Writer]

I think the point is that you haven't remote piloted an aircraft remotely via an infinite bandwidth wireless connection using VR using a direct neural connection so your experience with remote flight doesn't pertain to the SR-verse.

My point was less about real life experiences and more about game mechanics. Even a VR interface would be different than physically flying a vehicle.

[Kerenshara]

I think that everybody should be trained and practiced in the operation of a variety of firearms. I also think that everybody should practice at least one combative sport. I think it would help everyone stay on the same page in life.

Does that come with an obligatory side of dance, painting, poetry and calligraphy as well?

In a word: yes. I think basic firearm safety should be a part of kindergarten and primary school, with proper handling, servicing and loading/unloading being conducted for both sidearms and longarms. In middle school, I would like to see mandatory firing line familiarization, and optional full service training with both types. Basic martial arts, if taught correctly, encourage good general fitness of body and mind, and I would encourage them fully. I see absolutely no reason that Kingboy's classes should not be at least offered as well. Well rounded young people become well rounded adults. We've tried to focus on the "three R's" and failed miserably. We educated our childern better when we made sure they were being raised as a more complete person, than making sure they were able to perform educational bulimia on command; We ask them to cram in information and regurgitate it on examinations without verifying retention or comprehension over the long term. I remember my own educational experiences vividly, and I know the advanced art/acting/music lessons I took helped broaden me in ways more hours of Politically Corrected history or oversimplified mathematics could ever have hoped to. Phillosophy, as a general investigation of the ideas, would be a wonderful thing as well, in my opinion if it could be made into more than a Christian Theological Indoctrination. Classes on logic, ethics and comparative sociology would dramatically improve the way Americans interract with the world at large but giving us an apperciation for other cultures and viewpoints, whether we agree with them or not. The lessons in handling firearms teach self-confidence and responsibility, and will help eliminate ignorance related firearm deaths without depriving people of their fundamental rights to defend themselves. Sorry, that's my rant.

[crash2029]

Hrm. In general I agree with you. I remember my public education vividly as well. I did horribly in school. There were a number of reasons why I had such a hard time. Probably the biggest proof that my trouble in school was not lack of intelligence or a learning disablilty was the fact that in 10th grade when we went on vacation for winter break I got a GED. I took the supposedly day-long test in less than 2 hours and did very well. Before my fellow 10th graders went back from vacation I had the equivalent of a diploma.

I agree that there should be more thorough and effective education for all in this country. I don't know about mandatory combat training, though. I would make it elective, but that is just me.

[Draco18s]

Probably the biggest proof that my trouble in school was not lack of intelligence or a learning disablilty was the fact that in 10th grade when we went on vacation for winter break I got a GED. I took the supposedly day-long test in less than 2 hours and did very well. Before my fellow 10th graders went back from vacation I had the equivalent of a diploma.

I did the same thing, but only because I was moving states. Didn't want to be in my senior year of highschool at a new school.

Though, not the GED, I took the CHSPE (California High School Proficiency Exam). You have to be 18 to take the GED, where as the HPE is the same thing for minors. In any case, I finished both sections before most other people, but the grade I got back was a pass/fail, so no idea how well I did (I passed).

[Kerenshara]

I agree that there should be more thorough and effective education for all in this country. I don't know about mandatory combat training, though. I would make it elective, but that is just me.

The shooting part would be optional beyond simple discharge, possibly with blanks for the skittish/objectors. I suppose you could always do the "opt-out" with parental consent but ... that takes a lot out of it if it's not universal knowledge. The handling part WOULD be mandatory as a safety issue, like a form of driver's ed. Only way out is to prove competency, so a parent could teach them personally and test out. I guess I can see how martial arts, even the very basics would be seen as "combat training", but given where I have seem parts of our society go, I'm not so sure that would be a BAD thing. I have taken people to the range and seen them find new confidence from the experience of having successfully handled and utilized a firearm time and again.

Besides, I personally find shooting to be theraputic and relaxing.

[crash2029]

I did the same thing, but only because I was moving states. Didn't want to be in my senior year of highschool at a new school.

Though, not the GED, I took the CHSPE (California High School Proficiency Exam). You have to be 18 to take the GED, where as the HPE is the same thing for minors. In any case, I finished both sections before most other people, but the grade I got back was a pass/fail, so no idea how well I did (I passed).

Maybe it varies by state. I took the GED when I was 16.

[Draco18s]

Maybe it varies by state. I took the GED when I was 16.

Possible.