New Metamagic, Balancing a House Rule Options

[JesterX]

One of my player asked a special favor:

To have the possibility of transferring her physical body along with her aura via the astral plane.

To me, it looks like a cheap teleport/desolidification combo.

I'm not against the idea but I need to balance it to make it viable. I don't want a player to be able to enter any place, any time without having to pay a huge cost.

Any thoughts/ideas about this?

[darthmord]

That the domain of Nethermancers from Earthdawn. I would suspect that ability isn't available yet due to the ambient mana level isn't high enough support such feats.

If you want to let it happen now, you may want to work it like Astral Projection where there's a time limit on how long the mage can sustain this effect. Perhaps Magic x 1 Minute. Upon expiration, gets dumped to the Physical plane. Can also end it early. You may want to attach a rest requirement of Magic minutes. May also want to consider letting the Mage take it repeatedly. Each time, it increases the time increment either by unit of measurement (from Magic x1 minutes to Magic x10 minutes to Magic x1 hour, etc). Alternatively the time increment increase could be Magic x1 , Magic x2, Magic x3, etc.

I'd also consider making it tied to other MetaMagics. Perhaps Masking & Shielding as pre-requisites. Masking to represent learning how to make your aura blend in and Shielding to represent your knowledge of barriers & their interaction with Magic. This isn't something that any Grade 1 initiate should be able to do. Maybe even have those two metamagics AND have to complete an Metaplanar Quest (learn from a spirit).

Keep in mind that if the Mage gets this ability, they *WILL* become a person of interest (to a great number of parties) once word gets out they can do something this unique / unusual.

[Draco18s]

Also a possibility of resisting some kind of drain?
"Teleporting" (via the astral) is likely to cause some havoc to the physical body, which wasn't meant to travel that way.

[Marshwiggle]

I like the above ideas, but I've got one more that may go a ways towards balancing it - prohibit the use of astral fast movement while carrying your body along.

Also, think of how interesting this could be in the hands of an NPC, especially with the above limitation...

[Mongoose]

That the extremely rare and dangerous domain of absurdly high level Nethermancers from Earthdawn. I would suspect that ability isn't available yet due to the ambient mana level isn't high enough support such feats.

Fixed that. Note that this is something DRAGONS can not do in Shadowrun. In fact, there is zero support for physical objects moving to the astral plane in the current SR cannon, unless maybe you count the magical landscapes of Australia.

The opposite is somewhat possible, in that astral beings can create and control physical but that's got comparable limits to what mages can do; such forms are always dual natured, so the astral aspect continues to exist. In fact, the physical form vanishes if you destroy the astral. A mage who tries to drag their physical body to the astral plane is like a spirit who tries to make their manifest form not dual natured... its a fancy form of suicide.

Probably the more realistic option would be to learn possession, and find a body to take over at whatever location is is you are trying to reach. Obviously the trick is "find a body to take over"...

[Dr Funfrock]

Just say no. There's a reason why teleportation is explicitly forbidden in the setting, and it has absolutely frag all to do with plot.

Unless of course the rest of your players like being completely incidental to the story. If that's their thing then sure, go for it.

Yes, it sucks when you have to stop a player from doing something cool, but when you have a situation like this where even great dragons, who god knows get enough free passes as it is, can't pull it off, the player should understand that it would make no sense for their character to be able to.

[Athanatos]

Actually, they have a form of this exact thing in EarthDawn. Dragons are one of the few Namegiver races that are capable of it. It is entirely possible that this is what Ghostwalker actually did. Whether he "picked up" his body somewhere along the way or fully reentered the physical plane. Plus the Lightbringers could do this, noticeable survivors of which are Eharan(?) the scribe and Harlequin.

I would think it would require a atleast 6 or so levels of initiation before being able to take said meta-magic, but I would have it exist as a very rarely known meta-magic.

Plus, I would also have it having drain based on how long you were physically astral.

[Screaming Eagle]

The only way I (as a poor beleagured GM) might think about allowing this sort of thing: the mage finds "someway" to become a Spirit.
(A previous thread about Ally spirits and inhabitation comes to mind... maybe some sort of ancenstor worship tradition... Mage dies leaving their vessel (spirit formula))

this is a big stretch though and probably not what they want especially since they would be paying off this Karma debt till the end of time. (what does it cost to play a spirit again? oh ya, way to F-ing much, for a reason)

Physical things cannot go to or interact with the astral... allowing one person to do it WILL allow others... teleporting dragons, ya...

[KCKitsune]

In my opinion, the only reason teleport is not allowed is because it would, contrary to what Funfrock says, would destroy the metagame behind shadowrun.

[Stahlseele]

Isn't there something called the Astral Gateway Power on some Free / Great form Spirits?

[Screaming Eagle]

Astral gateway permits persons to travel to the astral and meta-planes - it does not such to their meat bodies - it does make everything in the area (trees, rocks, spike) dual natured

[Muspellsheimr]

In my opinion, the only reason teleport is not allowed is because it would, contrary to what Funfrock says, would destroy the metagame behind shadowrun.

Yes, but astral travel is not teleportation. It allows you to move fucking fast, & bypass physical barriers, but it is not an instant 'I'm there', nor does it allow you to bypass astral barriers (at least not without some effort). Considering how common Wards are, it would be powerful but not breaking.


That being said, I developed a spell to do this & posted it on the forums a while back - Astral Form is what I called it at the time (I think). Search for it. It had some severe limitations, & never reached a final version. I think a Metamagic might actually work better for this, now that you mention it. I will think about it, & possibly stat something up.

[Digital Heroin]

I developed a similar Metamagic for a theoretical character (a beneficiary of the Big D's will), but it was chained. She was an Adept, capable of Astral Perception, and in order to travel she had to locate a Dragon Line. She could align her body with the Dragon Line (in my reckoning a mana line aspected to very specific magics, so exclusionary of a lot of the lines), and enter it, then travel at a speed comprable to Astral Projection along it, exiting at any point along the way.

If I were to re-visit the concept, I would have some additional caveats, amongst them:

- She would have to resist Drain based on the time spent in the Dragon Line; and
- She would have to have Divining as a prereq, to discern the path of the line.

While it's far outside of canon, it's limited in three major ways (Must be along a dragon line, resist drain, and must Divine the location/path of the line first).

[Chibu]

ftr, it's not that high of a thing for Nethermancers to do. Bone Circle was pretty early. Also, you had to have one set up in two different specific places already for it to actually work.

However, Lightbearers at rank 15 (which is similar to a skill of 15, or maybe an initiate grade of 15, in SR) can also do this. Specifically, Halrequin and Ehran the Scribe can do it. By the way, since it's being talked about, Astral Shift (which is what it's called) had a maximum duration of 15 minutes. And we're talking about extreemly powerful people, not some schulb of a street mage. And also yes, they do take voluntary physical damage to do this. Which should be noted.

In short though, you probably should not allow it in shadowrun as it would make it too easy to break into bubildings (which is the main goal in shadowrun). So, keep that in mind.

[Hagga]

ftr, it's not that high of a thing for Nethermancers to do. Bone Circle was pretty early. Also, you had to have one set up in two different specific places already for it to actually work.

However, Lightbearers at rank 15 (which is similar to a skill of 15, or maybe an initiate grade of 15, in SR) can also do this. Specifically, Halrequin and Ehran the Scribe can do it. By the way, since it's being talked about, Astral Shift (which is what it's called) had a maximum duration of 15 minutes. And we're talking about extreemly powerful people, not some schulb of a street mage. And also yes, they do take voluntary physical damage to do this. Which should be noted.

In short though, you probably should not allow it in shadowrun as it would make it too easy to break into bubildings (which is the main goal in shadowrun). So, keep that in mind.

Nethermancer teleport is a circle ten spell. That's not exactly chickenfeed.

RANK 15
ASTRAL SHIFT
Action: Yes
DUration: Rank Minutes
The astral shift ability allows a Lightbearer's entire being -- physical, mental, and spiritual -- to enter the astral plane and reemrge into the physical world at a new location. Entering or leaving astral space causes 3 points of strain. A LIghtbearer may take any other LIghtbearer or Oathtaker characters who are touching him into astral space with him. Each additional character taken into astral space costs the LIghtbearer an additional 3 points of Strain. Because a Lightbearer takes all the inflicted Strain at once, he may Wound himself in an effort to take too many people into or out of astral space. Any attempt to take non-LIghtbearer or non-Oathtaker characters into astral space will fail.
Each use of Astral Shift lasts for a number of minutes equal to the character's Lightbearer Rank. The maximum distance a Lightbearer can travel, with or without companions, is 150 miles.
If attacked by creatures while in astral space, the lightbearer can defend himself using all the talents and abilities he possesses in the physical world. If a LIghtbearer suffers a Wound in astral space, he must make a Willpower Test against a difficulty Number of 15. On a successful test, the LIghtbearer may remain in astral space. If the test is unsuccessful, he immediately returns to the physical world. Such an abrupt expulsion from the astral plane causes the character to take damage of Step 20 upon reemerging in the physical world. Also, if a creature native to astral space that can exist in the phyiscal world happens to be near the character when he is expelled, it can follow him ot the physical plane. Forcing the creature to return to astral space may prove difficult. If a LIghtbearer dies in astral space, his dead body immediately returns to the physical world. If the Lightbearer takes other characters with him into astral space, They must all remain in physical contact with him in order to remain in astral space. If they lose physical contact with the LIghtbearer, they immediately return to the Physical Plane and suffer step 20 damage. Astral creatures that can exist on the physical plane may follow accompanying LIghtbearer or Oathertaker characters back into the physical world and attack them.

Maybe that will help.

[Hagga]

Just for completeness, here's the Nethermancer gateway talent since that was brought up several times.

Gateway:
Threads: 5 Weaving Difficulty: 12/19
Range: 5,000 miles Duration: Rank rounds
Effect: Willforce + 10
Casting Difficutly: Target's Spell Defense (See bnelow)
This spell opens a rift in astral space and connects it to a Bone Circle (p. 176, ED) of the Nethermancer's Creation. The rift forms a gateway between the nethermancer's position and the Bone Circle. The gateway is 10 feet tall and 5 feet wide, outlined by pinwheels of green sparks. To create the rift, the nethermancer makes a Spellcasting Test against the highest Spell Defense of any character within 10 yards of his position. To connect the rift to the Bone Circle, the magician makes an effect test against a difficulty number based on the distance between him and the Bone Circle, as follows:

Distance:
Less than 1 mile 2
2-5 5
6-10 7
11-25 11
26-50 14
51-100 17
101-200 20
201-500 23
501-1000 26
1001-2000 29
2001-5000 32

There's also spirit portal, but I'm too lazy to type that sucker out. Basically this, but without nay limitations. You make a portal that spirits can enter the physical plane through and adepts can enter the astral.

We've been playing Earthdawn lately, and the only thing that my Nethermancer has less survivability than is a Dark Heresy Psyker, which is basically the equivalent of jumping up and down on a hat full of mercury fulminate and hoping you don't get hurt. I don't think many will survive to this rank. I will admit to not having played DH much, despite my habit of nerding out on some tabletop games.

[HappyDaze]

I would not use such a metamagic in my game just as I would not allow a technomancer to use a Resonance ability to transfer his meatbody into the matrix (like what happened to Flynn in Tron). The latter being no less reasonable than the former since Resonance is really just another type of paranormal power.

[Chibu]

Circle 10, eh? Yeah that's high. We never really played nethermancers as well... They shouldn't have been listed as a playable Discipline (in our opinion), as they summon horrors and crap, and well... no one likes them.

And I never understood why Astral Shift said 'Rank Minutes' since 15 is the maximum rank, and you don't get that ability until rank 15... So, it's always 15 minutes.

But yeah, again, it's a really high level power, something that no runner should probably be able to reach without the help of someone who's way better, like Harlequin, and it would change the game completely, making the mage most likely completely unbalanced with the rest of the group.

[HappyDaze]

But yeah, again, it's a really high level power, something that no runner should probably be able to reach without the help of someone who's way better, like Harlequin, and it would change the game completely, making the mage most likely completely unbalanced with the rest of the group.

The rules allow for cyberzombies which are generally regarded as being of very high power, so direct application magical effects on that level would probably have use in some games for the magician buddy of the cyberzombie.

[Jaid]

The rules allow for cyberzombies which are generally regarded as being of very high power, so direct application magical effects on that level would probably have use in some games for the magician buddy of the cyberzombie.

the game also allows for megacorporations to run the show. this does not mean your character can also run the show.

the more logical equivalent would be the observation that there is a metamagic technique which allows cyberzombies to be created. this technique is not available to player characters.

likewise, is it *possible* to do this? sure, for something with the appropriate kind of power. does that mean we need to get it into the hands of the PCs asap? nope.

the cyberzombie PC (assuming you even use the option) is more comparable to having a PC who has passed through one of these gates, rather than having a PC who can create one.

certainly, if you want it though, go ahead. hand it to your players. it's your game after all. i just happen to think it's firmly in the category of "the players don't have access to it".

[HappyDaze]

the game also allows for megacorporations to run the show. this does not mean your character can also run the show.

Why not? There's nothing in the mechanics of the SR4 system that hardwire your character to be a runner. If you want to play a corp exec and that fits in with what your GM and the other players want, then by all means do it.

the more logical equivalent would be the observation that there is a metamagic technique which allows cyberzombies to be created. this technique is not available to player characters.

likewise, is it *possible* to do this? sure, for something with the appropriate kind of power. does that mean we need to get it into the hands of the PCs asap? nope.

I don't care for artificial limits that make a distinction between PCs and NPCs. If the metamagic technique is out there, it can be learned by PCs. They may need to find a teacher, but that doesn't put it into the realm of NPCs only - it just makes for another story...

[Jaid]

Why not? There's nothing in the mechanics of the SR4 system that hardwire your character to be a runner. If you want to play a corp exec and that fits in with what your GM and the other players want, then by all means do it.


I don't care for artificial limits that make a distinction between PCs and NPCs. If the metamagic technique is out there, it can be learned by PCs. They may need to find a teacher, but that doesn't put it into the realm of NPCs only - it just makes for another story...

so what you're saying is that all your mooks are built exactly the same way as the PCs? do you give them a full background for each one? do you carefully follow the availability limitations when making them? are your PCs playing insect magicians and great dragons?

or, do you have an artificial set of limits that make a distinction between PCs and NPCs?

[Czar Eggbert]

I think that you are going about it the wrong way, instead of an astral teleport power make it a Manifest Meta-Magic. Give it as mant prereq's as needed, at least 4, and require a Quest to learn it from a Spirit. Add to this insane amounts of drain and a short time limit (eg magic x 1min), and you have your self a winner. And, to add fule to the fire, all it ends up being is a metamagic that mimics a spirit power, something that has been done before.

I am the Eggman

[Shinobi Killfist]

Circle 10, eh? Yeah that's high. We never really played nethermancers as well... They shouldn't have been listed as a playable Discipline (in our opinion), as they summon horrors and crap, and well... no one likes them.

And I never understood why Astral Shift said 'Rank Minutes' since 15 is the maximum rank, and you don't get that ability until rank 15... So, it's always 15 minutes.

But yeah, again, it's a really high level power, something that no runner should probably be able to reach without the help of someone who's way better, like Harlequin, and it would change the game completely, making the mage most likely completely unbalanced with the rest of the group.

Nethermancers did not summon horrors, they studied and learned about horrors in order to better combat them. But yes circle 10 is fairly high level you needed the expansion book to hit it. On a side note a lot of these spells may have been harder in earth dawn on the game logic level. The horrors still existed and astral space was horrible polluted. Using a snazzier version of the filtering metamaigc was the base way spells had to be cast due to the high background.

[Chibu]

Nethermancers did not summon horrors, they studied and learned about horrors in order to better combat them. But yes circle 10 is fairly high level you needed the expansion book to hit it. On a side note a lot of these spells may have been harder in earth dawn on the game logic level. The horrors still existed and astral space was horrible polluted. Using a snazzier version of the filtering metamaigc was the base way spells had to be cast due to the high background.

Huh... Yeah, so I just looked through the ED books, and apparently you're right. I have no idea why I thought that then, but I saw no mention of it. I just remembered a spell that was like "summon Horror" or something. but apparently not. Oh well. That's weird.