I Hate Form-Fitting Body Armor, My armor houserules. Options

[HappyDaze]

Like the title says, I've come to hate FFBA. It's not because it allows for higher armor values - I know how deadly SR4 can be and I'm all for increased survivability. What I hate is that per RAW, it's the only worn armor that stacks with other worn armor. Somehow it's just that special and thus it becomes a must-have item for everyone. I hate the idea of a must-have item.

Now there are pleanty of other armors that should be able to be worn together. The Armor Vest says it can be worn under clothing (which should include Armor Clothing), while Armor Clothing could surely be worn under a Lined Coat or Armor Jacket. So logically there's no problem with stacking armor.

So, what does FFBA do mechanically that we can use and how can we adjust the armor system overall?

Features of FFBA:
#1 It's armor value stacks with other worn armor.
#2 It's armor value only counts as half for determining armor encumbrance.

In my games I decided to extend #1 to all worn armor. Now #2 is the sole special feature of FFBA - that it's less encumbering to wear layered under other armor, but with the restriction that only one piece of FFBA can be worn. This has increased the variety of armor types employed by our PCs (and the NPCs) which was the goal.

As a second rule, I adjust armor encumbrance up to (Ballistic + Impact) rather than just the higher of the two. A character can wear (Body + Strength) x 2 points before taking penalties to Agility and Reaction. Each 2 points (round up) past that provides -1 penalties to Agility and Reaction.

[KCKitsune]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) I know that I might not have read the rules that well, but if someone said you can wear FFBA on top of another set of FFBA, then I would have to use the dreaded technique of the the Dreadsock* on them.



* == Take a metal WH40K dreadnought and put it into a very sturdy sock and beat the offender about the head and shoulders until bloody or dead.

[Stahlseele]

That's what the Hardcover Version of Shadowrun Books is there for.

[Larme]

Not a bad rule, IMO. Logically, wearing two armor jackets is twice as good as wearing one, even if the rules don't say so. I think the no-stacking rule was initially part of SR4's toning things down, eliminating the universal practice of wearing multiple pieces of armor that was prevalent in SR3. I don't think they totally threw it out the window with FFBA though, FFBA has distinct disadvantages, such as being expensive, and requiring you to wear full body clothing at all times if you don't want it to be obvious that you're wearing it.

[kzt]

RL, actually running with two layers of armor isn't as good as a single thicker layer. With solid armor it's something like 2/3rds as good iirc. The confederates needed to do this in the Civil war to armor their ironclads and they couldn't roll thick plate, so they bolted together layers.

Not sure how it works with soft armor, which is already many layers of fabric.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I don't think they totally threw it out the window with FFBA though, FFBA has distinct disadvantages, such as being expensive, and requiring you to wear full body clothing at all times if you don't want it to be obvious that you're wearing it.

Or you could wear half-suits instead of full suits, save money, fit more armor on, and wear whatever you want. Because of the way location-based damage works in Shadowrun, there's no disadvantage to doing it this way.

[HappyDaze]

A few examples of armor combinations I've used as a GM or seen on PCs since using this houserule:

Body 3, Strength 3 with Lined Coat (6/4) and FFBA I (3/0) = B/I of 9/4 and encumbrance 12 for 1,200 nuyen
Body 4, Strength 3 with Armor Clothing (4/0) and Armor Vest (6/4) = B/I of 10/4 and encumbrance 14 for 1,100 nuyen
Body 4, Strength 3 with Armor Clothing (4/0) and Lined Coat (6/4) = B/I of 10/4 and encumbrance 14 for 1,000 nuyen
Body 4, Strength 3 with Leather Jacket (2/2) and Armor Vest (6/4) = B/I 8/6 and encumbrance 14 for 800 nuyen
Body 4, Strength 4 with Armor Jacket (8/6) and FFBA I (3/0) = B/I of 11/6 and encumbrance 16 for 1,400 nuyen
Body 4, Strength 5 with Actioneer Business Clothes (5/3) and Armor Vest (6/4) = B/I of 11/7 and encumbrance of 18 for 2,100 nuyen
Body 5, Strength 5 with Armor Vest (6/4), Chain Shirt (2/7), and Shin Guards (0/1) = B/I of 8/12 and encumbrance of 20 for 1,650 nuyen
Body 9, Strength 7 with Armor Jacket (8/6), Armor Vest (6/4), Heavy Armor Clothing (4/2), and Vitals Protector (1/1) = B/I of 19/13 and encumbrance 32 for 2,300 nuyen

The last case may seem extreme, but it was proven in game not to be so. This set of protection was found on a tough ork adept called Patches (he was a changeling with distinctive colored patches on his skin). Patches was taken down by eight shots from a Predator IV using regular ammo.

[Method]

The math is certainly more straight forward (just add everything up and compare) and I like that you take into account body and strength. The low end examples seem pretty reasonable but the high end example (with encumbrance limit of 32!!) seems a little over the top.

I think the only thing I would change is that exceeding the encumbrance limit would reduce Reaction and Agility on a 1 to 1 basis. My thinking is if you are going to make the system more lenient by allowing characters to wear more armor without being encumbered the penalty for exceeding the encumbrance limit should be more strict.

[Psikerlord]

I don't like FFBA either, mainly because yeah it's a "must have" which has no downside (no real downside, considering what it gives you). In our campaign we houseruled it doesn't stack. It ended up being very concealable armour for NPCs.

[HappyDaze]

Every 2 (round up) that you exceed by amounts to the equivalent of every point of Body and/or Strength that you're short of what you need to be unencumbered. It rarely comes up as just about everyone does what they can to stay unencumbered since any hits to Agility and Reaction tend to suck. Generally a +2/+0, +1/+1, or +0/+2 armor is not worth a -1 Agility and -1 Reaction (some exceptions may arise).

Like I noted above, even the high-end example was dispatched fairly quickly by a common weapon. Sure, he lasted quite a bit longer than most targets, but that was the point of this NPC. Throw in stronger weapons (like shotguns), better ammo (APDS or Ex-Ex), and autofire (this is the big one) and he'll fall a lot faster. Also, the last example was not particularly subtle - he looked like a street monster and advertised that his "hide" was rhino-thick.

[Cthulhudreams]

FFBA is just a stealth buff to body armour. You can jettison it by just banning it, or if you like tougher PCs, giving everyone two points of armour 'for free' - which is what I do.

I don't let people stack worn armour though because the point of this change is also to reduce book keeping, and adding crap about armour stacking is just annoying.

[Octopiii]

Every 2 (round up) that you exceed by amounts to the equivalent of every point of Body and/or Strength that you're short of what you need to be unencumbered. It rarely comes up as just about everyone does what they can to stay unencumbered since any hits to Agility and Reaction tend to suck. Generally a +2/+0, +1/+1, or +0/+2 armor is not worth a -1 Agility and -1 Reaction (some exceptions may arise).

Like I noted above, even the high-end example was dispatched fairly quickly by a common weapon. Sure, he lasted quite a bit longer than most targets, but that was the point of this NPC. Throw in stronger weapons (like shotguns), better ammo (APDS or Ex-Ex), and autofire (this is the big one) and he'll fall a lot faster. Also, the last example was not particularly subtle - he looked like a street monster and advertised that his "hide" was rhino-thick.

Poor Patches. Actually, Poor Trainwreck. I think Hamburger had a crush on her. Too bad he had to express it with a love note delivered from a grenade launcher.

What I'm not sure of is how Patches went down. It seems like you were having the shots do physical damage, despite dv not exceeding the adjusted armor value - I'm pretty sure none of the shots were ~19 dv. That's the main issue with this house rule: Physical Damage is going to become very hard to come by due to all the armor stacking. Did we house rule away the rule where less than Modified armor does stun damage?

[HappyDaze]

The basic math is too much? It's not really all that tough for my group, but I'm sure that may vary for others.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

RL, actually running with two layers of armor isn't as good as a single thicker layer.

Actually, tanks have sandwich armor now. And of course, it is still better to have an additional layer than to have none.

Not sure how it works with soft armor, which is already many layers of fabric.

As long as they aren't centimeters apart...

[HappyDaze]

What I'm not sure of is how Patches went down. It seems like you were having the shots do physical damage, despite dv not exceeding the adjusted armor value - I'm pretty sure none of the shots were ~19 dv. That's the main issue with this house rule: Physical Damage is going to become very hard to come by due to all the armor stacking. Did we house rule away the rule where less than Modified armor does stun damage?

No, that was my mistake. He actually should have taken 4 physical and a full 11 stun rather than the 15 physical (2 of which were overflow) I had noted. It was just a mistake. He should be unconcious and wounded rather than dying.

As for P damage being hard to come by, for most of the low-moderate (Body + Sterength) individuals, they could have gotten near to the same armor values with FFBA and PPP. I just allow for more combinations to get there. For high end (Body + Strength) it's quite a bit harder, but that just means they fall unconcious before the next bullet or four kills them off.

[Traul]

Per RAW, Patches could have had :

- Armor Jacket 8/6
- FFBA +6/+2
- Helmet +2/+2
- Vitals Protection +1/+1
- Arms and legs casings +1/+1

Total : 18/12

That is only a 1/1 difference. Here the low encumbrance of the FFBA is not used: there is nothing left to put on anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

The problem I see with HappyDaze's system is you can set ballistic armor to an insane level by lowering impact armor. IMHO, if you allow to stack armor (adding 8/6 + 6/4 + 6/2 + 4/0 increases armor unbalance), you should stick to the encumbrance being triggered by the highest armor rating. That doesn't prevent you from using BOD+STR instead of BOD*2 if you prefer.

[HappyDaze]

There's a bit more to add:

Gel Packs (+1/+1)
Forearm Guards (+0/+1)
Shin Guards (+0/+1)

Total of 19/14 and no encumbrance by RAW. Note that Gel Packs could arguably be applied per item of armor by their description, allowing for a total cheesefest if you want to really RAWdog it.

[Larme]

Actually, tanks have sandwich armor now.

Hero or reuben? ... Sorry, couldn't help myself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

[Raizer]

I too had a dislike for Form Fit Armor in my campaign. As such, in addition to the encumbrance rules I use, I adjusted Form Fit to be Damage Resistance rather than armor. As such it can't accept armor mods either. Here are my house rules:

Armor (Encumbrance)
• A Character may only have a combined (Ballistic and Impact) Armor Value equal to 2 times their Strength and Body.
o For every 2 full points (or fraction thereof) that the combined armor value has over that number, they suffer a -1 modifier to Agility and Reaction.
• One may purchase custom fit armor at quadruple the cost. Custom Fit means the combined Armor value allowance is equal to 3 times Strength and Body. Availability is 4 higher.
o Note: Add-on Armors such as Securetech PPS or Helmets must also be bought custom if combined with custom armor or count as 2 times their value for Encumbrance

Armor (Form Fit)
• Form Fit Armor no longer counts as Armor. Instead please use the Values listed as Damage Resistance dice for Ballistic and Impact attacks at the rating listed. As such it is not affected by attacks that reduce Armor.
o Note: A Full Body Suit not utilizing its full covering (IE: Gloves, Booties, and Hood) counts as 1 less Ballistic and 1 less Impact. (5/1)
• Encumbrance: Form Fit armor still counts as armor for Encumbrance. It uses its full values instead of half due to the changes in the encumbrance rules and is considered custom.
o Note: When combining Form Fit with non-custom armor use the following encumbrance values:
 Form Fit Shirt: 2
 Form Fit Half Body Suit: 3
 Form Fit Full Body Suit: 5
• Form Fit may NOT accept Armor Modifications.

[kzt]

Actually, tanks have sandwich armor now. And of course, it is still better to have an additional layer than to have none.

That's an armor SYSTEM. So it includes various layers engineered to do very particular things. Slapping multiple layer of body armor on isn't the same thing at all.

For example, a rifle bullet will go through any soft vest out there. If you put another behind it, it will go through that too. Essentially the armor can't reduce the bullet speed to below the velocity it will puncture the next layer of armor. Eventually, with enough layers, you can stop it, but you can also do that with enough layers of newspaper or window glass.

[Draco18s]

Meh, just add on about 3" of water around your whole body, that'll stop anything with more speed than a pistol shot.

(I.e. gel packs--which technically work better against higher speed projectiles than lower speed ones, but the rules don't reflect that)

[kzt]

You need a lot more than 3 inches.

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode34

Hiding underwater can stop bullets from hitting you.

partly confirmed

All supersonic bullets (up to .50-caliber) disintegrated in less than 3 feet (90 cm) of water, but slower velocity bullets, like pistol rounds, need up to 8 feet (2.4 metres) of water to slow to non-lethal speeds. Shotgun slugs require even more depth (the exact depth couldn’t be determined because their one test broke the rig). However, as most water-bound shots are fired from an angle, less actual depth is needed to create the necessary separation.

[darthmord]

Mythbusters did a special on shooting guns into water. Turns out the 9mm handgun is effective being shot into water. Even then, it's only good for a short distance.

A .50 cal... LOL. That made a huge splash and the bullet fragmented almost instantly. They found the fragments at the bottom of the pool about a foot or two in front of the gun mount they were using.

Even a small arm, like a .22 was effectively useless being shot into water.

Water plays havoc with firearms rounds.

[Malachi]

The only tweak I made to FFBA in my game was that it counted for its full value when determining encumbrance. I felt its concealability factor was enough of an advantage already. In my games, I tend to be pretty tough/stingy about the whole "walking around in armor with guns" thing. My players don't get into any public place outside of the Barrens with anything more than Armor Clothing and a highly concealed sidearm (usually a Light Pistol).

[Kerenshara]

Actually, tanks have sandwich armor now. And of course, it is still better to have an additional layer than to have none.

KZT had it exactly right with the term "Armor System". But the thing to remember is that tanks are interested in stopping TOTALY different KINDS of incoming rounds. Against homogeneous rolled steel armor, one of the more effective (and nasty) rounds is HESH (High Explosive Squash Head). This type of round uses the momentum of the projectile to fragment the thin outer casing and spready a coating of high explosives across the outer surface of the armor, then the detonator at the rear impacts the tank and detonates the explosives, setting up a sympathetic wave inside the homogeneous steel, which reflects back off the inside surface and causes destructive harmonic resonance in the metal causing large "flakes" to shear off and go bouncing (at VERY high velocities) around the interior of the tank. The "flakes" are referred to properly as "spalling" and they remain a very dangerous threat to this day.
The second major threat is the armor penetrating shot (APDS/AV in game terms), which causes damage by focusing as much kinetic energy as possible on the smallest possible surface are of the target armor. A simple sollution to this turned out to be having a "face hardened" outer layer, perfect for stopping lighter rounds of all kinds, over softer homogeneous steel with reinforcing hardened rods inside (think rebar inside concrete) that help produce minute deflections in the vector of the incoming projectile setting up massive shearing forces and in effect "shattering" the penetrator. The answer has been ever higher velocities and denser materials (depleted uranium is a particular favorite these days), but this requires ever heavier guns and platforms which can absorb the massiv recoil forces.
The final type of round, which relies on the "Monroe effect" is better known by the acronym HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank). This type of round uses a basic force in physics to turn a thin cone-shaped metal facing (usually copper) into a very high temperature and extremely fast moving jet of plasma that burns its way through the steel(s) and to the interior of the vehicle. It is nasty because a) it does not require a heavy projectile b) it does not require a high velocity and c) it can be scaled up against thicker armor by just making the diameter larger. Many counters have been developed to counter these weapons, some more effective and/or cheaper than others. One answer is a thin outer layer of armor physically spaced from the main armor by a calculated distance heavy enough only to set off the incoming round, whereby a large portion of the energy is disipated into the intervening empty space and allowing the main armor to resist only a portion of the force over a much wider area. This is very bulky but cheap. In recent years, even "slatted" fences have been shown to have this effect in practice. A second, and logistically much more difficult sollution is so-called reactive armor; reactive armor is explosives in the space I mentioned above detonation to form a counter-wave to disrupt the incoming jet. This plays havoc with the vehicle itself (blowing off antennas, damaging vision blocks and so forth) and requires a lot of upkeep to keep all the small explosive tiles in order, and you chance a chain-reaction of sympathetic detonations. It is, however, very effective at its job. The most expensive sollution is the modern "composite" armors, which are a complex therr-dimensional layered matrix of materials known to include metal, ceramic and anti-ballistic fibers. The net result is to help break up a HESH shock wave, redirect and absorb the AP round (and the attendant fragments) and to dissipate the HEAT jet. It is fiendishly expensive and extremely heavy. Early versions were found to have weaknesses against very high power AP rounds, and consequently the matrix was modified and an outer cladding of face-hardened depleted urainium was added to provide an extremely dense and refractive shield against AP rounds.
The battle between ammunition and armor is ongoing, with the current ultra-heavy composite armors being nearly impervious to every mobile weapon on the battlefield save from "lucky" hits and shots at areas historically nearly impossible to armor properly in any fashion. Composite armor is not simply "layers" of the same kind of armor. It is a package, designed into the vehicle, to provide maximum protection. And simply adding more layers of the same armor reaches a point of decidedly diminishing returns. I agree there should be SOME benefit for armored clothing under a lined coat, but fundamentally it's about the final result you are trying to achieve. Let us consider why FFBA is different from all other armors, including armored clothing.
Basic worn armor is expected to cover large areas and protect from a wide degree of angles of fire. Shadorun treats this as an agregate protection score agains high-speed (Ballistic) or low-speed (Impact) attacks. A light piece of armor that has excellent coverage provides the same bonuses as a small but very tough piece of armor covering areas frequently hit. FFBA in the lowest level, covers the single most important and targeted parts of the (meta)human body: the center-of-mass vitals. Please note, however, that it provides NO protection agains a low speed impact, whatsoever. It is too easy to hit a person in other parts of the body. The second step of FFBA protects the whole chest, upper arms, abdomen and hips. These are the "miss" areas of the center-of-mass vitals when shooting, thus the rise in protection, but note it is only a 30% rise, despite covering almost 50% more body. There is a token increase in low-speed protection because now parts often hit in low-speed attacks are somewhat covered. The full suit of FFBA increases the numbers a little more, but read the descripton: it includes gloves, socks and a hood! It is a complete body suit leaving only the face uncovered, but the numbers, if worn alone, are not very good. (If you omit the gloves, socks and hood, the Full Suit essentially reverts to Half-Suit since you're not wearing all of it.) Compare that to even the trusty old Lined Coat and you see FFBA comes up way short.
But let's consider how that works together: the lined coat has to protect a large area, but the FFBA is covering the most important parts, the ones most often targeted and where a single shot can do the most damage (except the head/neck). THAT is why there is a moderate improvement to Ballistic protection (and a token improvement to Impact) from stacking the two. An Armored Vest is too bulky to be worn effectively (hence the AGI and REA penalties) under the Lined Coat. Essentially, FFBA is a really advanced version of the very light armors worn under plain clothes by police officers. It is light enough to go COMFORTABLE and FLEXIBLY under other worn armor.
As a final comparison, look at the extras you can buy: Helmet +2. A modern helmet has a near 100% chance of stopping any heavy handgun round by itself, but why does it not add +9 or more? Because it only covers PART of the body with a VERY heavy level of protection. Armored shin pands and arm guards are likewise very heavy by themselves, but as a part of the abstracted body, they contribute very little. The actual FFBA piece is probably like +5 ballistic individually, but leaves a lot of the body unprotected - but it DOES cover a vital part, making up for that failing.
I think, if a player really wanted to stack armor, I might give them 1/2 of the lower piece's protection and 1/4 of the third, but that's it, and FULL encumbrance. That reflects just how hard it is to move under that much armor. It's not even a matter of strength; It's a matter of being able to move specific joints. A single layer of armor takes into account movement restrictions, but they aren't designed to work together like that. FFBA is either a) not touching a joint in the first place or b) extremely light covering designed to let other armor carry the load at joints. That is why it only counts for half encumbrance. Armor clothing should probably get the 1/2 encumbrance of FFBA, but I would still cut it back to 1/2 protection.