Like the title says, I've come to hate FFBA. It's not because it allows for higher armor values - I know how deadly SR4 can be and I'm all for increased survivability. What I hate is that per RAW, it's the only worn armor that stacks with other worn armor. Somehow it's just that special and thus it becomes a must-have item for everyone. I hate the idea of a must-have item.

Now there are pleanty of other armors that should be able to be worn together. The Armor Vest says it can be worn under clothing (which should include Armor Clothing), while Armor Clothing could surely be worn under a Lined Coat or Armor Jacket. So logically there's no problem with stacking armor.

So, what does FFBA do mechanically that we can use and how can we adjust the armor system overall?

Features of FFBA:
#1 It's armor value stacks with other worn armor.
#2 It's armor value only counts as half for determining armor encumbrance.

In my games I decided to extend #1 to all worn armor. Now #2 is the sole special feature of FFBA - that it's less encumbering to wear layered under other armor, but with the restriction that only one piece of FFBA can be worn. This has increased the variety of armor types employed by our PCs (and the NPCs) which was the goal.

As a second rule, I adjust armor encumbrance up to (Ballistic + Impact) rather than just the higher of the two. A character can wear (Body + Strength) x 2 points before taking penalties to Agility and Reaction. Each 2 points (round up) past that provides -1 penalties to Agility and Reaction.

I know that I might not have read the rules that well, but if someone said you can wear FFBA on top of another set of FFBA, then I would have to use the dreaded technique of the the Dreadsock* on them.



* == Take a metal WH40K dreadnought and put it into a very sturdy sock and beat the offender about the head and shoulders until bloody or dead.

That's what the Hardcover Version of Shadowrun Books is there for.

Not a bad rule, IMO. Logically, wearing two armor jackets is twice as good as wearing one, even if the rules don't say so. I think the no-stacking rule was initially part of SR4's toning things down, eliminating the universal practice of wearing multiple pieces of armor that was prevalent in SR3. I don't think they totally threw it out the window with FFBA though, FFBA has distinct disadvantages, such as being expensive, and requiring you to wear full body clothing at all times if you don't want it to be obvious that you're wearing it.

RL, actually running with two layers of armor isn't as good as a single thicker layer. With solid armor it's something like 2/3rds as good iirc. The confederates needed to do this in the Civil war to armor their ironclads and they couldn't roll thick plate, so they bolted together layers.

Not sure how it works with soft armor, which is already many layers of fabric.

Or you could wear half-suits instead of full suits, save money, fit more armor on, and wear whatever you want. Because of the way location-based damage works in Shadowrun, there's no disadvantage to doing it this way.

A few examples of armor combinations I've used as a GM or seen on PCs since using this houserule:

Body 3, Strength 3 with Lined Coat (6/4) and FFBA I (3/0) = B/I of 9/4 and encumbrance 12 for 1,200 nuyen
Body 4, Strength 3 with Armor Clothing (4/0) and Armor Vest (6/4) = B/I of 10/4 and encumbrance 14 for 1,100 nuyen
Body 4, Strength 3 with Armor Clothing (4/0) and Lined Coat (6/4) = B/I of 10/4 and encumbrance 14 for 1,000 nuyen
Body 4, Strength 3 with Leather Jacket (2/2) and Armor Vest (6/4) = B/I 8/6 and encumbrance 14 for 800 nuyen
Body 4, Strength 4 with Armor Jacket (8/6) and FFBA I (3/0) = B/I of 11/6 and encumbrance 16 for 1,400 nuyen
Body 4, Strength 5 with Actioneer Business Clothes (5/3) and Armor Vest (6/4) = B/I of 11/7 and encumbrance of 18 for 2,100 nuyen
Body 5, Strength 5 with Armor Vest (6/4), Chain Shirt (2/7), and Shin Guards (0/1) = B/I of 8/12 and encumbrance of 20 for 1,650 nuyen
Body 9, Strength 7 with Armor Jacket (8/6), Armor Vest (6/4), Heavy Armor Clothing (4/2), and Vitals Protector (1/1) = B/I of 19/13 and encumbrance 32 for 2,300 nuyen

The last case may seem extreme, but it was proven in game not to be so. This set of protection was found on a tough ork adept called Patches (he was a changeling with distinctive colored patches on his skin). Patches was taken down by eight shots from a Predator IV using regular ammo.

The math is certainly more straight forward (just add everything up and compare) and I like that you take into account body and strength. The low end examples seem pretty reasonable but the high end example (with encumbrance limit of 32!!) seems a little over the top.

I think the only thing I would change is that exceeding the encumbrance limit would reduce Reaction and Agility on a 1 to 1 basis. My thinking is if you are going to make the system more lenient by allowing characters to wear more armor without being encumbered the penalty for exceeding the encumbrance limit should be more strict.

I don't like FFBA either, mainly because yeah it's a "must have" which has no downside (no real downside, considering what it gives you). In our campaign we houseruled it doesn't stack. It ended up being very concealable armour for NPCs.

Every 2 (round up) that you exceed by amounts to the equivalent of every point of Body and/or Strength that you're short of what you need to be unencumbered. It rarely comes up as just about everyone does what they can to stay unencumbered since any hits to Agility and Reaction tend to suck. Generally a +2/+0, +1/+1, or +0/+2 armor is not worth a -1 Agility and -1 Reaction (some exceptions may arise).

Like I noted above, even the high-end example was dispatched fairly quickly by a common weapon. Sure, he lasted quite a bit longer than most targets, but that was the point of this NPC. Throw in stronger weapons (like shotguns), better ammo (APDS or Ex-Ex), and autofire (this is the big one) and he'll fall a lot faster. Also, the last example was not particularly subtle - he looked like a street monster and advertised that his "hide" was rhino-thick.

FFBA is just a stealth buff to body armour. You can jettison it by just banning it, or if you like tougher PCs, giving everyone two points of armour 'for free' - which is what I do.

I don't let people stack worn armour though because the point of this change is also to reduce book keeping, and adding crap about armour stacking is just annoying.

Poor Patches. Actually, Poor Trainwreck. I think Hamburger had a crush on her. Too bad he had to express it with a love note delivered from a grenade launcher.

What I'm not sure of is how Patches went down. It seems like you were having the shots do physical damage, despite dv not exceeding the adjusted armor value - I'm pretty sure none of the shots were ~19 dv. That's the main issue with this house rule: Physical Damage is going to become very hard to come by due to all the armor stacking. Did we house rule away the rule where less than Modified armor does stun damage?

The basic math is too much? It's not really all that tough for my group, but I'm sure that may vary for others.

Actually, tanks have sandwich armor now. And of course, it is still better to have an additional layer than to have none.

As long as they aren't centimeters apart...

No, that was my mistake. He actually should have taken 4 physical and a full 11 stun rather than the 15 physical (2 of which were overflow) I had noted. It was just a mistake. He should be unconcious and wounded rather than dying.

As for P damage being hard to come by, for most of the low-moderate (Body + Sterength) individuals, they could have gotten near to the same armor values with FFBA and PPP. I just allow for more combinations to get there. For high end (Body + Strength) it's quite a bit harder, but that just means they fall unconcious before the next bullet or four kills them off.

Per RAW, Patches could have had :

- Armor Jacket 8/6
- FFBA +6/+2
- Helmet +2/+2
- Vitals Protection +1/+1
- Arms and legs casings +1/+1

Total : 18/12

That is only a 1/1 difference. Here the low encumbrance of the FFBA is not used: there is nothing left to put on anyway

The problem I see with HappyDaze's system is you can set ballistic armor to an insane level by lowering impact armor. IMHO, if you allow to stack armor (adding 8/6 + 6/4 + 6/2 + 4/0 increases armor unbalance), you should stick to the encumbrance being triggered by the highest armor rating. That doesn't prevent you from using BOD+STR instead of BOD*2 if you prefer.

There's a bit more to add:

Gel Packs (+1/+1)
Forearm Guards (+0/+1)
Shin Guards (+0/+1)

Total of 19/14 and no encumbrance by RAW. Note that Gel Packs could arguably be applied per item of armor by their description, allowing for a total cheesefest if you want to really RAWdog it.

Hero or reuben? ... Sorry, couldn't help myself

I too had a dislike for Form Fit Armor in my campaign. As such, in addition to the encumbrance rules I use, I adjusted Form Fit to be Damage Resistance rather than armor. As such it can't accept armor mods either. Here are my house rules:

Armor (Encumbrance)
• A Character may only have a combined (Ballistic and Impact) Armor Value equal to 2 times their Strength and Body.
o For every 2 full points (or fraction thereof) that the combined armor value has over that number, they suffer a -1 modifier to Agility and Reaction.
• One may purchase custom fit armor at quadruple the cost. Custom Fit means the combined Armor value allowance is equal to 3 times Strength and Body. Availability is 4 higher.
o Note: Add-on Armors such as Securetech PPS or Helmets must also be bought custom if combined with custom armor or count as 2 times their value for Encumbrance

Armor (Form Fit)
• Form Fit Armor no longer counts as Armor. Instead please use the Values listed as Damage Resistance dice for Ballistic and Impact attacks at the rating listed. As such it is not affected by attacks that reduce Armor.
o Note: A Full Body Suit not utilizing its full covering (IE: Gloves, Booties, and Hood) counts as 1 less Ballistic and 1 less Impact. (5/1)
• Encumbrance: Form Fit armor still counts as armor for Encumbrance. It uses its full values instead of half due to the changes in the encumbrance rules and is considered custom.
o Note: When combining Form Fit with non-custom armor use the following encumbrance values:
 Form Fit Shirt: 2
 Form Fit Half Body Suit: 3
 Form Fit Full Body Suit: 5
• Form Fit may NOT accept Armor Modifications.

That's an armor SYSTEM. So it includes various layers engineered to do very particular things. Slapping multiple layer of body armor on isn't the same thing at all.

For example, a rifle bullet will go through any soft vest out there. If you put another behind it, it will go through that too. Essentially the armor can't reduce the bullet speed to below the velocity it will puncture the next layer of armor. Eventually, with enough layers, you can stop it, but you can also do that with enough layers of newspaper or window glass.

Meh, just add on about 3" of water around your whole body, that'll stop anything with more speed than a pistol shot.

(I.e. gel packs--which technically work better against higher speed projectiles than lower speed ones, but the rules don't reflect that)

You need a lot more than 3 inches.

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode34

Hiding underwater can stop bullets from hitting you.

partly confirmed

All supersonic bullets (up to .50-caliber) disintegrated in less than 3 feet (90 cm) of water, but slower velocity bullets, like pistol rounds, need up to 8 feet (2.4 metres) of water to slow to non-lethal speeds. Shotgun slugs require even more depth (the exact depth couldn’t be determined because their one test broke the rig). However, as most water-bound shots are fired from an angle, less actual depth is needed to create the necessary separation.

Mythbusters did a special on shooting guns into water. Turns out the 9mm handgun is effective being shot into water. Even then, it's only good for a short distance.

A .50 cal... LOL. That made a huge splash and the bullet fragmented almost instantly. They found the fragments at the bottom of the pool about a foot or two in front of the gun mount they were using.

Even a small arm, like a .22 was effectively useless being shot into water.

Water plays havoc with firearms rounds.

The only tweak I made to FFBA in my game was that it counted for its full value when determining encumbrance. I felt its concealability factor was enough of an advantage already. In my games, I tend to be pretty tough/stingy about the whole "walking around in armor with guns" thing. My players don't get into any public place outside of the Barrens with anything more than Armor Clothing and a highly concealed sidearm (usually a Light Pistol).

KZT had it exactly right with the term "Armor System". But the thing to remember is that tanks are interested in stopping TOTALY different KINDS of incoming rounds. Against homogeneous rolled steel armor, one of the more effective (and nasty) rounds is HESH (High Explosive Squash Head). This type of round uses the momentum of the projectile to fragment the thin outer casing and spready a coating of high explosives across the outer surface of the armor, then the detonator at the rear impacts the tank and detonates the explosives, setting up a sympathetic wave inside the homogeneous steel, which reflects back off the inside surface and causes destructive harmonic resonance in the metal causing large "flakes" to shear off and go bouncing (at VERY high velocities) around the interior of the tank. The "flakes" are referred to properly as "spalling" and they remain a very dangerous threat to this day.
The second major threat is the armor penetrating shot (APDS/AV in game terms), which causes damage by focusing as much kinetic energy as possible on the smallest possible surface are of the target armor. A simple sollution to this turned out to be having a "face hardened" outer layer, perfect for stopping lighter rounds of all kinds, over softer homogeneous steel with reinforcing hardened rods inside (think rebar inside concrete) that help produce minute deflections in the vector of the incoming projectile setting up massive shearing forces and in effect "shattering" the penetrator. The answer has been ever higher velocities and denser materials (depleted uranium is a particular favorite these days), but this requires ever heavier guns and platforms which can absorb the massiv recoil forces.
The final type of round, which relies on the "Monroe effect" is better known by the acronym HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank). This type of round uses a basic force in physics to turn a thin cone-shaped metal facing (usually copper) into a very high temperature and extremely fast moving jet of plasma that burns its way through the steel(s) and to the interior of the vehicle. It is nasty because a) it does not require a heavy projectile b) it does not require a high velocity and c) it can be scaled up against thicker armor by just making the diameter larger. Many counters have been developed to counter these weapons, some more effective and/or cheaper than others. One answer is a thin outer layer of armor physically spaced from the main armor by a calculated distance heavy enough only to set off the incoming round, whereby a large portion of the energy is disipated into the intervening empty space and allowing the main armor to resist only a portion of the force over a much wider area. This is very bulky but cheap. In recent years, even "slatted" fences have been shown to have this effect in practice. A second, and logistically much more difficult sollution is so-called reactive armor; reactive armor is explosives in the space I mentioned above detonation to form a counter-wave to disrupt the incoming jet. This plays havoc with the vehicle itself (blowing off antennas, damaging vision blocks and so forth) and requires a lot of upkeep to keep all the small explosive tiles in order, and you chance a chain-reaction of sympathetic detonations. It is, however, very effective at its job. The most expensive sollution is the modern "composite" armors, which are a complex therr-dimensional layered matrix of materials known to include metal, ceramic and anti-ballistic fibers. The net result is to help break up a HESH shock wave, redirect and absorb the AP round (and the attendant fragments) and to dissipate the HEAT jet. It is fiendishly expensive and extremely heavy. Early versions were found to have weaknesses against very high power AP rounds, and consequently the matrix was modified and an outer cladding of face-hardened depleted urainium was added to provide an extremely dense and refractive shield against AP rounds.
The battle between ammunition and armor is ongoing, with the current ultra-heavy composite armors being nearly impervious to every mobile weapon on the battlefield save from "lucky" hits and shots at areas historically nearly impossible to armor properly in any fashion. Composite armor is not simply "layers" of the same kind of armor. It is a package, designed into the vehicle, to provide maximum protection. And simply adding more layers of the same armor reaches a point of decidedly diminishing returns. I agree there should be SOME benefit for armored clothing under a lined coat, but fundamentally it's about the final result you are trying to achieve. Let us consider why FFBA is different from all other armors, including armored clothing.
Basic worn armor is expected to cover large areas and protect from a wide degree of angles of fire. Shadorun treats this as an agregate protection score agains high-speed (Ballistic) or low-speed (Impact) attacks. A light piece of armor that has excellent coverage provides the same bonuses as a small but very tough piece of armor covering areas frequently hit. FFBA in the lowest level, covers the single most important and targeted parts of the (meta)human body: the center-of-mass vitals. Please note, however, that it provides NO protection agains a low speed impact, whatsoever. It is too easy to hit a person in other parts of the body. The second step of FFBA protects the whole chest, upper arms, abdomen and hips. These are the "miss" areas of the center-of-mass vitals when shooting, thus the rise in protection, but note it is only a 30% rise, despite covering almost 50% more body. There is a token increase in low-speed protection because now parts often hit in low-speed attacks are somewhat covered. The full suit of FFBA increases the numbers a little more, but read the descripton: it includes gloves, socks and a hood! It is a complete body suit leaving only the face uncovered, but the numbers, if worn alone, are not very good. (If you omit the gloves, socks and hood, the Full Suit essentially reverts to Half-Suit since you're not wearing all of it.) Compare that to even the trusty old Lined Coat and you see FFBA comes up way short.
But let's consider how that works together: the lined coat has to protect a large area, but the FFBA is covering the most important parts, the ones most often targeted and where a single shot can do the most damage (except the head/neck). THAT is why there is a moderate improvement to Ballistic protection (and a token improvement to Impact) from stacking the two. An Armored Vest is too bulky to be worn effectively (hence the AGI and REA penalties) under the Lined Coat. Essentially, FFBA is a really advanced version of the very light armors worn under plain clothes by police officers. It is light enough to go COMFORTABLE and FLEXIBLY under other worn armor.
As a final comparison, look at the extras you can buy: Helmet +2. A modern helmet has a near 100% chance of stopping any heavy handgun round by itself, but why does it not add +9 or more? Because it only covers PART of the body with a VERY heavy level of protection. Armored shin pands and arm guards are likewise very heavy by themselves, but as a part of the abstracted body, they contribute very little. The actual FFBA piece is probably like +5 ballistic individually, but leaves a lot of the body unprotected - but it DOES cover a vital part, making up for that failing.
I think, if a player really wanted to stack armor, I might give them 1/2 of the lower piece's protection and 1/4 of the third, but that's it, and FULL encumbrance. That reflects just how hard it is to move under that much armor. It's not even a matter of strength; It's a matter of being able to move specific joints. A single layer of armor takes into account movement restrictions, but they aren't designed to work together like that. FFBA is either a) not touching a joint in the first place or b) extremely light covering designed to let other armor carry the load at joints. That is why it only counts for half encumbrance. Armor clothing should probably get the 1/2 encumbrance of FFBA, but I would still cut it back to 1/2 protection.

Reactive Armor in game terms is smart armor, or more accurately 3rd edition's ablative armor.

Reactive Armor in game terms is smart armor, or more accurately 3rd edition's ablative armor.

For those that want to argue that layers of soft armor accomplish little IRL, remember that SR armor values represent two things: (1) the qualtity of protection on the areas of the body covered with the armor, and (2) the amount of the body so protected by the armor. Even if (1) is only getting a minor increase from layering, (2) is certainly increasing. Does this realistically amount to getting full value from secondary pieces? Probably not, but doing so keeps the math simple. It also provides for a more survivable game and since I've seen too many SR characters go from 'perfectly fine' to 'perfectly fine red mist' after a single opponent's first IP, that's a positive change in my eyes.

Soft armor is incredible effective IRL. But that because it STOPS bullets. It doesn't slightly reduce the damage from pistol bullets (like SR shows), it stops them. And better yet, it armors the area that is easiest to shoot at, which is the torso. [Yeah people can get bruised etc, but that is typically minor and severe cases are typically minor overmatch - where the bullet is still stopped but the backface deformation is excessive due to the armor not being rated for the weapon]

Without a hit location system you are better with just messing with the armor values to produce an outcome you like rather then go into the sillyness of allowing layering armor so you look like the Michelin man.

The main issue you have with real life armor is overmatch. Once you go slightly over what the armor can stop the armor provides essentially no protection. I saw a USMC study that suggested you actually can sustain more severe injuries from armor that is unable to stop a bullet than from being shot without armor.

Interesting, but it's also another example of where I don't feel a need to represent something accurately in game. I like the overall simplicity of SR's armor system - I just don't like the stacking 'wonder' properties currently restricted soley to FFBA, so that's why I opened them up to other armor types.

Simple math.

*re-reads the cover of the BBB*

Nope, still says Shadowrun.

*laughs until they fall out of the chair, rolling on the floor, howling as tears of mirth dampen the carpet*

Figuring up a 1/2 for next lowest and 1/4 for least is a joke compared even to just character creation, much less determining maximum jump distances for a physical adept. And the "minor" increases, while useful, would probably quickly be out-striped by the encumbrance penalties. If you need that much armor, get heavier armor. People talk about full-auto fire of APDS ammunition like it's bottled water going down the drain. Mil-spec armor is hard to get, and obvious as hell. But if you think you're being subtle shinnying over to the StufferShack^TM at three in the morning wearing a long coat over an armored vest worn over armored clothing with the "must-have" FFBA for underwear, think again, omae. Illegal or no, EVERYBODY is going to want to know why you feel the need to wear that much gear, and the Star is going to have serious questions about what ELSE you feel the need to be carrying... And if Mil-Spec armor can't stop it, no amount of "stacked" armor is going to beat an integrated "Armor System" like those full up suits. That's just reality (*chokes*), and it factors into the game.

The original printing of L5R was supremely deadly, and some people (mostly DnD players) felt it was unplayable. Real combat IS extremely deadly, and the weapons in Shadowrun aren't black powder flintlocks. They are using powders, primers and breech materials fifty years ahead of our current best. Even standard ammunition is going to be fabulously lethal. A good shadowrun is one where you never fire a shot. Just like L5R encouraged role playing and diplomacy over brute force and violence, Shadowrun seeks to encourace creativity and guile over those same factors. Brute force and violence is for un-named NPCs who don't need to do anything more creative than break somebody's knees to steal their boots. At least, that's my take on it.

As a side note, last night our "samurai" (What the heck kind of self-respecting samurai has an essence of 3.1? *snicker* I love bioware.) sucker punched a troll body guard, and had enough initiative to hit him a second time (after wound penalties) before he could go again. He knocked the guy cold, with some physical transfer. He's not built for melee, per-se. Even hand-to-hand unarmed combat is that lethal in this system, as it should be for trained martial artists.

Is there any evidence that it's more than just your claims?

I'm not sure what exactly you're asking for. Very lethal systems discourage combat as a first sollution. L5R called for tact and diplomacy in character to AVOID fights (Medieval Fantasy Japan); Shadowrun is about what ammounts to crime for proffit, and getting around the various protections of the target(s) without force requires guile (sneakiness) and creativity.

Not sure where you are going here... what point are you trying to make?

I this is what you want, maybe you'd better just nerf FFBA a bit intead of changing the whole system. If you just added half the FFBA level to armor when layering, that would make the full body one +3/+1. That is good, but not better than a +2/+2 helmet.

Along the same lines: I was suggesting that if you are going to deviate from the RAW in such a way as to make armor more effective (albeit a minor change), you might consider curbing armor in some other way just to bring things back to center.

Unless you want to use force to get to the target...

...Which is my point: that entirely contradicts my entire experience with Shadowrun. From my perspective, and from the perspective of the three DMs I've regularly played with, Shadowrun's a game about shooting people right in the face for money. Oh, sure, sometimes you don't plan to, or even want to avoid to, but it always ends up back at cash-related facial ballistics.

And how often are you having PCs killed or burn edge to not die?

Never, actually, though we've come close a few times.

In RL, soft body armor does stop 'some' bullets from penetrating. However, take your finger and jab it into your body about three inches deep and that is about what you can expect to experience in RL. Funniest video I ever saw was this reporter wearing a vest being shot on camera to show just how good body armor is. Yes, it stopped the bullet, but for about a minute after that the reporter was only able to give a random list of expletives that he knew.

I am a paintballer (mainly woodsball) and on those occasions that I play speedball, I wear a padded vest and slider shorts. That combined with my law enforcement experience I can tell you that softbody armor makes you sweat like a pig. It literally drains the bloody life force out of you. Soldiers in the mid-east wearing that stuff (their version is actually heavier and bulkier) really deserve a frickin medal! I don't know if you want or can adequately model that factor into SR, I say the best idea is that you have the players go and try paintball in the heat of the sumer wearing a chest protector. After which, ask if their character is still wearing FFBA in August in Atlanta?

Yes, because it's the future and they solved those problems.

Can we stop bringing the RL stuff in now?

Uh, Bob, you have to remember, this is Shadowrun. In this universe they have come up with Handwavium Unobtanium technology that will allow great body armor that keeps you cooler (or warmer if need be) than if you were in an air conditioned home.

I have had similar experiences with some GMs... and it's almost always for a single session before I politely make my excuses and never return. In a game like that, any kind of supporting character winds up feeling slighted for ... what did somebody else here call it? Spotlight time? In earlier editions of Shadowrun, the decker was frequently either an NPC or handled off-camera from the rest of the party's perspective, because the matrix rules were in depth and matrix-time had no direct mesh with combat-time. Now it's integrated into the IP system, and the 'decks are wireless, so the decker's along for the run again. The rigger, also, can be with you as you enter, not holed up in her control van. If you're focused on "facial ballistics" (Which, by the way, is a cute turn of phrase), where does your face come in, or the sneak specialist. And if you haven't gotten to deal with the astral rules, et. all, you've missed a big piece of the 6th world. Back in SR2, the Fields of Fire sourcebook focused on paramilitary and mercenary "high intensity" conflict, and did a respectable job with it. But then it's a COMBAT medic, or a COMBAT decker, or a COMBAT rigger or what have you - people with a build emphasizing capability under fire, not social stress. I can see that kind of focus with a campaign like that, but "facial ballistics" jobs aren't usually where the big nuyen is. Now, a "hit" isn't the same thing, but if the target is lightly enough protected that a small band of 'runners can do a simple smash-and-grab, it's not going to make Johnson reach deep into her pockets to fund the 'run. I am not saying that the potential for violence isn't inherent - that's why we carry guns. But the point of a 'run shouldn't be an excuse to discharge your weapons. Who is it here that has that wonderful signature where one 'runner says it was a perfect run, in and out with no shots; then the samurai asks what's the fun in that and the rigger suggests they drive around the block so they can shoot at go gangers, and the sammy replies with enthusiasm? Yes, this will make the sammie feel less important on many runs, but when 'run DOES go sour, the samurai (and their kin) are the unquestioned heroes (if they do their job right) making sure everybody else gets out. The other night, my team ran into a packed (ork and troll mosh pit) concert to extract a speciffic comlink, and I wound up spending the entire time, even after a rival gang kicked off an un-related firefight inside while my team was there, up on a rooftop with my sniper rifle to make sure of a clean extraction if it fell in the pot. It wasn't a big emphasis on me, but I did what would be important to my character, and every other character felt better knowing the moment they got outside they would have artillery support to help them break contact.
It's your group, and you can play the way you choose to. All I am saying is that if your typical run really involves "facial ballistics" (I still like that, I think I will have to borrow it) for money, you're missing something in the world. If your only interest in the gear section can be summed up as "Guns ('n' ammo), Armor 'n' 'Ware", if the only part of The Awakened World that was of interest were the powers and combat spells, and you just skimmed The Wireless World, you're missing out on a huge section of the beauty, the magesty and the splendor (in all its squallor and misery) of the 6th world and all it has to offer and explore.
What you're describing reminds me a lot more of R.Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2020.

I personally consider this scenario to be facial ballistics: you're breaking into a corporate facility and the rozzers take exception to that and try and stop you, and you shoot them.

YMMV obviously. Spotlight time is important, and thats why its critical to negoitate with your players before a game - a GM who lets you turn up with a purely supporting character in a combat centric game has done poorly by you.

They haven't solved EVERY problem. Yes, the armor is vastly lighter, more flexible and more breathable than anything we have or are even working on today. Materials science is beginning to accleerate the way computer science was picking up speed in the late eighties and early nineties, so I am sure most of the "wearability" issues will have been addressed. But things like "breathability" and "active thermal response" are best handled in direct or very near proximity with the skin. Putting a "breathable" vest over another piece of armor doesn't allow the first piece to "breathe" properly. They just ARE NOT DESIGNED TO WORK TOGETHER. That goes for joint design too. And how well do you think you can grasp your wiz assault rifle when you can't make your arm cross your body for the bulk of the extra armor? FFBA is unique in that is is DESIGNED to work with other armor, suplementally. It is tailored (read the description) to ensure no loss of mobility or binding at the joints, allow it to "breathe" properly and exhibit proper "active thermal response" UNDER another layer of (possibly very thick winter) clothing, and the other armor on top is still close enough in to function normally without interference. That is why it is the exception. It's not the one "rule breaker" produced by one corp to trump all others; It is designed to get around the limitations the rules represent in a very speciffic fashion. It's not a total freebie, either. Don't think samurai - think decker. Body 3 means the scrag can only wear Ballistic protection values up to 4 with the half-body suit before she starts to take encumbrance penalties! So - again, without penalties - people with an AVERAGE body can't wear anything heavier than armored clothing over the half-suit FFBA. That's not really game-breaking. And there ARE some other armors (SecondSkin comes strongly to mind) described that a GM might feel inclined to allow FFBA-esque benefits for stacking and/or encumbrance benefits to. And I would even go so far as allowing 1/2 the lesser armor to be added for things like great/longcoats over a vest or clothing armors - but I would still add full encumbrance. For a troll, it's not really an issue because of their massive stature and titanic strength; Then again, for a troll, not much else IS an issue besides head room, clearance, doors, weapon grips, elevator control pads, AR gloves, toothpaste tubes, chopsticks...

Well, to use your own example, the idea would be to try to break in WITHOUT the rozzers being the wiser, because they can't take exception to what they don't know. When your attempt fails, that's where facial ballistics come into play, and why a smart team has some sort of sammie on every run. I think we can agree on that much, right?


If the GM is really INTENTIONALLY running a campaign like that, as Tsuyoshikentsu suggests, then yes, they have done a complete dis-service to you by letting you bring in a "fifth-wheel" character. I am suggesting that Shadowrun isn't REALLY combat-centric as presented. Combat (as in the "smell the Cordite^TM" variety) is a very important facet, but so are things like astral recon (and occasionally, combat), cyber legwork (and occasionally, combat), stealth, social engineering, fast-talking, smuggling, study and training, lifestyles, transportation, disinformation, strategy and tactics. A smash-and-grab requires minimal skill breadth, and thus commands a much lower fee. The ability to accomplish the mission without the opposition being the wiser is something which Johnson is much more willing to disperse funds for, since they can send you against MUCH tougher targets with far less fear of reprisal (you're not the only one who can figure out who Johnson really works for, neh?) from the target than when the team advertises their presence with gunfire.

I think you've missed the point of the orginial remark - he even says that you may not plan on killing anyone but sometimes that just happens anyway (usually when the plan is derailed in a big fireball)

Is this the quote you're referring to? It's the one I'm responding to, primarily.



The two of you aren't saying the same things at all. THIS statement is perfectly in line with what I have described - not intending to go in shooting unless it "happens" due to things going wrong, as they frequently do. I have been on lots of "busted" runs. That doesn't mean we don't keep shooting for gold every time anyway. Tsuyoshikentsu seems to imply that Shadowrun is all about going in guns blazing, especially if you compare it to the remarks THEY are responding to.
Does the distinction I am trying to draw make sense?

I hate the layering of armor as well. 1st-it defeats the purpose of the heavier armors. 2nd-(GM hand wave, not in RAW)It is obvious (FFBA being the RAW exception). 3rd-the agility and reaction penalties for layering armor should counteract any gain for having said armor.

4th-Gun play in SR4 is still dangerous (though in SR2 the farm was really cheap!) and the fact of the matter is if a group gets ambushed they are dead. It doesnt really matter if they heavy armored or not (unless the ambushers are a bunch of gangers with streetline specials and knives, then maybe).

SR4 pg. 315 "Thanks to monofilament ballistic fabrics, spiderweave threads, ceramic-titanium composite plates, and liquid armor packs to cover non-rigid areas, modern armor is light-weight, flexible, and concealable."

SR4 pg. 316 "Urban Explorer Jumpsuit: Ideal for messengers, athletes, and anyone on-the-go, these colorful jumpsuits are well ventilated for lots of action but surprisingly protective with light-weight deniplast and liquid reactive armor."

Out of the armor listed, one is stated to be well ventilated (and with pretty good protection).




Here is the best part though, if you are running a SR game, your armor can be whatever you want. I am just giving my take on armor.