[OOC] 2073: Red Dawn Rising, The off game section Options

[Spooky Jack]

Heh... I've never played a character with such an extremely low charisma before. Guessing by all the ruffled feathers though, I'd say I'm doing ok so far =)

Quick newb question here... how are spells like improved invisibility handled? Does everyone automatically roll to resist the spell when the subject of the spell comes into their line of sight, or do they not get a chance to resist, or do they only resist when something obviously indicates its presence (ie by picking someone up off the ground and throwing him accross the room).

[Mister Juan]

Terrence doesn't have a street name. He's got the Erased (24 hours) quality, so he doesn't care much what he gets called (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Chrysalis]

Heh... I've never played a character with such an extremely low charisma before. Guessing by all the ruffled feathers though, I'd say I'm doing ok so far =)

Quick newb question here... how are spells like improved invisibility handled? Does everyone automatically roll to resist the spell when the subject of the spell comes into their line of sight, or do they not get a chance to resist, or do they only resist when something obviously indicates its presence (ie by picking someone up off the ground and throwing him accross the room).

They only resist when you do something obvious, such as opening doors, picking up objects, and yes throwing people across rooms also count.

[crizh]

Umm, I was under the impression that they got to Resist the instant they perceive the illusion.

Drones and other inanimate stuff don't get a resist, you have to beat their OR, of 5 in the case of drones, with the initial skill check. Which means you have to use a minimum Force of 5 to succeed with Improved Invis.

[Spooky Jack]

Just did a little sleuthing of my own... Street Magic specifically states:

Improved Invisibility (Realistic, Single-Sense)* P O (INT) LOS S (F ÷ 2) + 1

(The * just means that the spell is from SR4)

Test is either O (Opposed Test, resisted with the noted attribute + Counterspelling), (Success Test). Spells marked S (OR) must beat the
Object Resistance threshold (see p. 174, SR4).

Therefore Improved Invisibility does not need to beat Object Resistance. From my understanding of it, since improved invisibility actually bends light around the person or object, it automatically succeeds against vision sensors (note that a motion (ultrasound) sensor or olfactory sensor would detect the subject immediately). A living person on the other hand would have to roll their INT+counterspelling test to actually see the subject.

Edit: Given the LOS portion of the spell description, I would say that the opposed test is automatic once within LOS. But I'm willing to be swayed by the GM's view that it only occurs upon noticing something "out of the ordinary" =P

[Chrysalis]

This is a case where the GM would be throwing lots of dice while everyone waited a few days to see if the Fomori is noticed in the room. Anything that makes the game faster and more fluid is better in my opinion.

You yourself are not seen, but secondary motion (such as swinging over a chainlink fence or running through water) will be seen, sometimes that is enough for automated sensors.

Olfactory sensors are becoming more common in secure facilities, usually in the shape of a guard dog and handler.

[Mister Juan]

@Chrysalis
Out of curiosity, what time of the day is it? I believe we've all taken for granted that it is night time... but I could be wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Also, what is the current weather in Seattle?

[crizh]

Just did a little sleuthing of my own... Street Magic specifically states:

Improved Invisibility (Realistic, Single-Sense)* P O (INT) LOS S (F ÷ 2) + 1

(The * just means that the spell is from SR4)

Test is either O (Opposed Test, resisted with the noted attribute + Counterspelling), (Success Test). Spells marked S (OR) must beat the
Object Resistance threshold (see p. 174, SR4).

Therefore Improved Invisibility does not need to beat Object Resistance.

This is a mistake in the table. You should probably report it so that it can be added to the errata file. All physical illusions must first overcome OR, SR4A p.208.

I made myself unpopular, I had help to be fair, by making a huge stink about this when SR4A was initially released. They raised the highest category of OR to 6 which required a spellcasting dice-pool of at least 18 Dice to reliably use Improved Invisibility.

This outburst of 'whining' on the boards resulted in them reducing the top category of OR to 5, so now you 'only' need 15 Dice.

Illusion magic is hard and the domain of specialists or the vastly powerful.

[Chrysalis]

@Chrysalis
Out of curiosity, what time of the day is it? I believe we've all taken for granted that it is night time... but I could be wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Also, what is the current weather in Seattle?

It is Night time, I have not really specified it, but let's say 10PM.

And since this is Seattle it must be raining.

[Spooky Jack]

Yeah Crizh, when you initially said you have to beat 5 OR I was going to say that to reliably cast improved invisibility would require a specialist mage with high magic, high casting, and maybe an illusion mentor spirit. As a starting character, or any non-mage, it would make illusions almost pointless against tech, despite the fact that a spell against tech has a greater drain value than the base spell. Also, SR4 says that drones are 4+ OR... does SR4A say 5? For all intents and purposes, every spell has to beat 5 net hits on the opposed cast roll in order to have any effect at all against tech...

Once again, I haven't read SR4A, but I noticed that in Street Magic every single illusion spell behaves the same way... for the most part it's the combat and manipulation spells that require you to beat OR, none of the illusion spells do (they simply either work, or don't work, against tech).

As a mystic adept that's more focused on the adept side, this would pretty much negate the usefulness of improved invisibility and would greatly reduce the effectiveness of my sound barrier spell (which I had intended to use mostly as a way to cover the sound of my elemental sound strike, but would also use for infiltration purposes). The more I hear about these SR4A changes the less I like em lol. The funny thing is that I can't even try to overcast to improve my chance of success since overcasting doesn't add dice. All it effects for my illusions is how hard they are to see through (and the area covered by my sound barrier). Essentially, I would have to overcast again and again, trusting in my 8 puny drain resistance dice to see me through, until I had cast the spell sufficiently well to evade tech. I don't see why they didn't just keep the one spell and require you to hit the OR... instead they raise the DV of the spell and also require more hits than you would almost ever need to succeed against a living creature.

Ugh. Well, rant is done. Once more I'll bow to whatever wisdom Chrysalis has to impart on the matter. It seems odd that all of the illusions in Street Magic are written the same way, but that SR4A would disagree with it.

[crizh]

I don't know what they were thinking when they wrote that table. The rules have never changed, physical illusions must overcome OR.

The OR thresholds have risen in SR4A although not as much as they might have and it was, eventually, explicitly stated that against normal sensors like cameras you only have to beat the lower OR Threshold of 3. It's only drones and stuff like them that you have to beat 5.

[Chrysalis]

I was looking through posts today. God I hate waiting.

Anyways, I posted my opinion. Improved invisiblity makes you invisible to certain types of emission picking up apparatae. That includes security cameras and the Mark I eyeball. However, you are not intangible. And that means that you can sneak into the parking lot of a nuclear power plant no problems. It is when you come across a door you are foiled.

This is not D&D. And believe me in some R&D facility in Shadowrun as we speak is developing a means to counteract invisibility through mechanical means.

Ask me if you have questions and I will make a ruling. Again my purpose is to have fun, which means the story goes on and the rules issues are smoothed over.

Sorry, what is ticking me off at the moment is the Shadowru section of the forums which some posters are more interested in hearing their own voices then trading ideas. In the words of an xkcd comic: "I cannot sleep! Someone is wrong on the Internet."

[Spooky Jack]

"I cannot sleep! Someone is wrong on the Internet."

ROFL. So true. Appreciate the feedback on spells =) I'll freely admit that I didn't know a whole lot about spell casting before deciding to grab a few for a little more rounded out character. This has been a great learning experience and I appreciate your generosity. I'll do my best to live up to your expectations and not get myself killed... at least, not first. Of course, I could be mis-judging your expectations =P

Back to the Game!!!

[Mickle5125]

are you using the +1 drain/net hit rule for direct combat spells?

[Digital Heroin]

Is it the having six doubles in the first time in as many months as me, or why the fuck is Frank a par of this group?

Seriously. Call it first or not, I feel like the bitch Technomancer.

[crizh]

Far from it.

You have that rarest of beasts, a Technomancer that knows one end of a gun from his own left bum cheek.

Electronic Warfare specialist is an excellent niche for a Combat TM.

For all that I try to ensure that Tetsuo can drive wireless into anywhere she needs to go I am going to fail at some point.

There are always going to be places that you have to physically go and Frank fits that niche pretty well.

[DWC]

From what I'd seen, I figured Frank's more of a force for stability amongst the group of lunatics than anything else. When everyone else is going in fifteen different directions, he's the calm, intelligent voice of reason that keeps everyone focused and out of federal prison.

[Chrysalis]

Sounds like a fun run, McNeil Island is a federal penitentiary outsourced to Renraku. No seriously, Frank is the voice of rationality in a chaotic group.

[crizh]

Hey DWC get the guy's comm-code and I'll get her tickets and frame him as an axe murderer...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[DWC]

Sure. Until he turns out to be a senator or something...

[Spooky Jack]

I definitely see Frank as the glue... one of the few in the group without any significant personality, physical or social defects. Yeah, Spooky may have the odd good idea, but he delivers them with the finesse of a derailed train travelling at 300km/h. Consider yourself the conductor of what might have otherwise been an earth shattering train wreck =)

[Ezeckial]

Frank's got a good set of skills, and the ability to walk into a danger zone with combat armor and an assault rifle at the ready. A completely different beast from Tetsuo. Frank will shine when his skill set comes to the foreground. Right now in the 'hack the planet' phase Tetsuo just happens to be flexing her muscles =P

Plus franks much more fun to be around!

Spooky, I'm beginning to think this groups theme song should be Crazy Train!

[Spooky Jack]

Just curious if I missed something here... Is Tetsuo able to monitor all our non comm-link chat? I didn't see anything in character that suggested Vice had picked someone up (perhaps I just didn't see it), but Tetsuo seemed to know about it. Spooky obviously won't know if Tetsuo is keeping visual or audio tabs on him, but as a player I'm curious =)

It seems that either a rediculous amount of advance behind the scenes preparation is going on in private messages to the GM (which would be cool in my mind, I like charcaters who are prepared) or I'm not sure... Tetsuo the omniscient, omnipotent hacker? The only reason I ask is because I've been told that normally the OOC thread in this forum is used for spoilers that include planning and the like, which I haven't seen at all. Thus far most actions calling for rolls have been stated either in character or in character spoiler tag thus far, and I'm wandering what's expected of us. Would you prefer us to state in a spoiler the mechanics of the roll we want, simply fit it into the description of our actions (if possible), or send our details to you as a private message?

[ Spoiler ]

For example (having put a little more thought into my role now) Spooky will be creating some sort of ward prior to departing the office, just so he knows if anyone comes snooping around while we're gone. He will also remove our astral signatures from the office if he can (Have to look at the mechanics of that).

Edit

[crizh]

I wasn't paying to much attention to who knew what.

How about we say for the time being that I'm monitoring his Simrig?

I'm sure there were 'signs' that Vice was no longer alone....

[DWC]

He's not actually broadcasting from the simrig, since he's not wearing the full FFBA suit under normal clothes. Instead, he's be broadcasting the data from his eyes, ears, biofabric armband, and RADAR sensor through the tactical AR network.