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[Meatbag]

I refuse playing SR4A...no way to have fun with a mage there. Thanks for the info...more swapping of points for me...argh...^^

Not to hijack the thread, but..How does SR4A gimp mages? All my twink-tastic builds seem to work just fine, if not better thanks to lowered Object Resistance.

The ruling about Direct Combat Spells is strictly optional, and even if your GM uses it, a Force 6 Fling spell propelling a grenade is only moderately less lethal than a Force 6 Manaball.

[Machiavelli]

Lowered object resistance? According to my last infos, they were only risen since standard SR4. And direct combat spells were the last fun I had and I simply don´t wan´t it to be nerfed for no reason. I´m still influenced by the original earthdawn background and magic should become stronger during time passes on, not weaker. I also didn´t experienced that mages are somehow of "uber", that nerfing would have been needed. Maybe we do something wrong in our group...don´t know.

[Larme]

Object resistance went up, but in the final version, it wasn't enough to matter against a twinktastic mage. All the whiners about the OR were people who said that they didn't want to twink out, like they were somehow morally opposed to creating characters that can actually do things. They wanted the game to stay on "easy mode" so they wouldn't have to work hard on their sheets (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The reason mages are uber is that mundanes have almost no defense against spells. A direct combat spell against a mundane is pretty much an auto-kill, if the mage is relatively powerful. There are a lot of things to mess with said mage, i.e. vision mods and background counts, but if you take an ordinary situation with none of those factors, a strong mage is a pretty near unstoppable forcce.

If you refuse to play SR4A thanks to the direct combat spell nerf though, you should know that they made it into an optional rule. In fact, they fixed or removed or made optional every single SR4A rule that people objected to. If you don't play it, you're simply playing an older, crappier version of the game with more typos and bugs in it.

[Larme]

By RAW, having a Charisma of 1 and no social skills makes a character vulnerable to certain social situations. The character, not being Uncouth, still does get the benefit of positive dice modifiers, though.

From a metagaming standpoint, a certain minimal investment in social ability can ensure that the GM doesn't throw a lot of social hassles your way. While the actual dice pool of, say, a Charisma of 2 and the Influence skill group at 1 might be small, it can sometimes make a big difference in how your character is treated in-game.

I think that's crap. 2 + 1 = 3. 3-1 = 2. We're talking a 2 dice difference. We are NOT talking average guy on the street here -- the average person, with average charisma and social skills, has double that many dice. We're talking about the difference between shit and crap. The guy with 3 dice for social is just as sucky, system wise, as the guy with 1, only the guy with 1 die starts out stronger.

I would get up and walk away from the table if a GM decided to harass my character with "scams" that were disconnected with the plot. That is a total waste of time. All it does it pick on one person, ignoring the entire rest of the team, the only reason being to bring down one character. That assumes an adversarial GM-Player relationship, where part of the GM's job is to ensure that a character gets fucked as much as possible. I'm fully willing to accept that the 1 die character can get into hot water when doing things related to the plot -- if he's the lookout and the police come up and harass him; if he's trying to convince a contact to help him out of a bad situation; if he's trying to look natural on his way to attack a facility... All of these things are relevant. "Someone comes up to you and rolls Negotiations to take all your money," however, is just not part of any good GM's playbook. It's mean, it's cruel, it's singling out one particular player for torment for the sole reason that he built a legal sheet. A GM should do one of two things: he should a) say "don't make that character, it's too min-maxed for my table," or b) leave it alone. Tormenting a player whose sheet is too twinky for you is the hallmark of a shitty GM, not an ordinary and necessary part of play.

[ElFenrir]

However, putting realistic encounters in a game(well, 'realistic'), that runners might run into, is just fine. Let's say the GM has an encounter planned at a bar, that involves Some Guy going up to the party to deal with them, and this encounter involves social rolls.

But then at the last second, while standing outside, they decide to do something else while the socially inept guy goes it alone in there. Is the GM bad for letting the encounter stick?

Is a GM bad for sometimes giving players situations that their skills don't quite match up to all the time? Does a good GM only give each character encounters that their skills match perfectly, all the time?

While I am actually a rather lenient GM-a very kind, one, in fact-I do believe in sometimes throwing some loops to the players to get them to think. I don't go out of my way to punish them for character choices-but in life, you will get situations that perhaps your own skills are not quite 'built' for.

Hell, it happened to my character recently in a game, and he ended up with a new skill because of it. They were in a situation with a locked door(classic kind), and no sort of gear for it. My character took his multitool(inadequate, -2 modifier), and defaulted to his agility(9-1=(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) , and tossed his dice and hoped for a bunch of hits to pick the lock. He did it-twice, to two doors. He could have kicked it in without a check, but he needed to be quiet.

After he had earned some more Karma, he picked up a Locksmith of 1, since he started fiddling with them a bit, and also picked up a set of proper picks. Great, my character spanned out because of an odd situation.I did not think the GM being too harsh on us for giving us a locked door. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (Our team DOES have a couple B&E folks-but they weren't there, so we had to improvise.)

Social situations come up a LOT in games, and a character that completely dumps Charisma and avoids social skills at all has to, IMO, be ready for this. Just like us-our B&E specialists weren't there, we had to improvise. The face isn't always going to be there to save the social inept's butt. At the same time, the face that avoids any and all combat skills whatsoever should know that the threat of being caught with their pants down in combat is very real, and if Greg the Ripper isn't there to protect them, they might be in some trouble.

ANY skill can come up. I mean, there is a difference between a GM who sticks the party(who has no Parachuting or build/repair skills), on a plane, with some broken parachutes, and hopes they make a roll to fix all the parachutes with defaulting, and then make the default parachute roll itself, and then starts to crash the plane. Yeah, I count that heavy-handed and a dick move. But to expect a character to NEVER have to make a social roll in a game, IMO, is asking a bit much.

Keep in mind I do believe that singling the player out for EVERY scam and cheapshot is too heavyhanded and should be avoided-generally speaking, the people are not going to know right off the bat upon looking at them that they are ''Mr. 1 Charisma and No Social Skills.'' At the same time-word might get around-if they get the bad end of a deal more than once, they might get a bit of a rep as the runner that's ''easy to swindle.''

[Larme]

I pretty much agree with you ElFenrir. I'm saying that social situations that crop up in normal play are fair game. What's not fair game is something like this:

"Ok, I head to the meet."

"On your way, a guy comes up and starts fast talking you. Don't even bother to roll because you can't win, now all your money is gone. Please erase your "nuyen" space on your character sheet and write 0. That's what you get for having 1 charisma and no social skills. If only you'd taken 2 charisma and Influence 1, I wouldn't have fucked you in the ass like that."

That's what some people seem to advocate for, and that's what I'm objecting to.

I should also point out, of course, that even having 1 charisma and no social skills doesn't make you automatically scammable. For instance, social skills are generally resisted by Willpower, not Charisma. Having low charisma means you'll never scam anyone, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you can be scammed more easily. Furthermore, look at the dice modifiers. Even if it is a skill that's resisted with charisma, they can be prohibitive. It's -3 if the target is hostile, and -3 if it's a harmful result to them (-5 if disastrous!). That's between -6 and -8 if an NPC tries to scam a jerkoff, violent, lunkhead PC. That's going to put your average scammer down to almost as few dice as the target. If the target adds edge, then the scammer's got no chance.

I'm not trying to say that it's wrong for someone's character build to bite them in the ass. What I'm calling wrong is interrupting the main story and singling out the one player for punishment, not for purposes of advancing the plot, but just to frustrate and humiliate him. If you're a GM who has a problem with someone's character sheet, call them on it. Don't be passive aggressive about it and just torture them. If you don't want it on your table, don't allow it. But you're betraying your obligation to be fair, impartial, and ensure that everyone has a fun time if you specifically single out a character for punishment simply for building a legal sheet that you don't like but never forbade.

[Machiavelli]

What's not fair game is something like this:

"Ok, I head to the meet."

"On your way, a guy comes up and starts fast talking you. Don't even bother to roll because you can't win, now all your money is gone. Please erase your "nuyen" space on your character sheet and write 0. That's what you get for having 1 charisma and no social skills. If only you'd taken 2 charisma and Influence 1, I wouldn't have fucked you in the ass like that."

That's what some people seem to advocate for, and that's what I'm objecting to.

Have you ever played in my group? This situation seems familiar. ^^

Object resistance went up, but in the final version, it wasn't enough to matter against a twinktastic mage. All the whiners about the OR were people who said that they didn't want to twink out, like they were somehow morally opposed to creating characters that can actually do things. They wanted the game to stay on "easy mode" so they wouldn't have to work hard on their sheets (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The reason mages are uber is that mundanes have almost no defense against spells. A direct combat spell against a mundane is pretty much an auto-kill, if the mage is relatively powerful. There are a lot of things to mess with said mage, i.e. vision mods and background counts, but if you take an ordinary situation with none of those factors, a strong mage is a pretty near unstoppable forcce.

If you refuse to play SR4A thanks to the direct combat spell nerf though, you should know that they made it into an optional rule. In fact, they fixed or removed or made optional every single SR4A rule that people objected to. If you don't play it, you're simply playing an older, crappier version of the game with more typos and bugs in it.

I have to use the "crap"-word, although i dislike utterances like that. I don´t want to re-open the "SR4A - good or bad" discusssion once again, but according to the statements of the line developers, their intention for this changes was, that magic has a basical problem to interfere with it´s natural enemy, says: technique. But while magic received a serious weakness, the effectivity of technique agains magic is unharmed? Doesn´t sound balanced or even fair. Most people discuss ways to kill mages and how powerfull they are, but the usual mage is dead before he received his first action phase. Of course, IF he has his phase, he can do some serious damage, but that can be done by a sam with a good weapon, too. And a mage has no semi-auto, burst- or full-auto fire, if the spell is strong, he also has a good chance that his first action is his last while the sam simply changes his clip when it´s empty. Nobody argues about semi-automatic grenade launchers that do 10P damage, with an AP of -1, but a 6P-area spell without armor is "the enemy" (don´t forget the possible bad roll at the drain resistance-test)? Sorry guys, we seem to have different kinds of logic.

[Machiavelli]

Sorry for the double-post, but the Edit-and-put-it-on-first-place-trick didn´t worked out. Don´t know why. So here it goes:


Race: Dwarf
Size: 1,60 (too big?)

Attributes:
Body: 3[7]
Agility: 5[7]
Strenght: 3[5]
Reaction: 3[7]
Intuition: 4
Charisma: 3
Logic: 3
Willpower: 4

Edge: 2
Essence: 0,35
Magic: 0
Initiative: 11 + 3 IP´s

Skills:
Firearms-Skillgroup: 4
Close-Combat Skillgroup: 4
- specialization dropped, will follow during gameplay
Athletics-Skillgroup: 1 (I don´t want negative pool-modifiers because i don´t have the skill at all...you never know when it´s needed)
- Gymnastics: 4 (+2) any Specialization that fits for dodging (will be worked out with the GM on Saturday)
Perception: 2
Infiltration: 2
Tracking: 2

Cyberware:
Move-by-Wire System 2
Cybereyes rating 3 (full equipped with everything that makes sense - dropped one rating, radar sensor skipped, you were right, it´s headware...follows during play)
Cyberears rating 3 (dropped one rating, equipment fits anyway)
2 Cyberspurs (just for the look) - maybe drop one, have to think about it.

Bioware:
Synthacardium rating 3
Enhanced articulation
Muscle toner & Muscle augmentation rating 2
Bone density rating 4

Edges:
Surge rating 3: (15)
Born rich: (10)
Restricted equipment: (5) (move by wire system)
Ambidexterous: (5)

Flaws:
Cranial bomb (10)
Day Job (5)
SINer (5)
Weak immune system (negates the metatypical ability to resist pathogens and poisons)

Equipment:
I take the low cost equiment that was mentioned above. Money comes up a little less than expected but enough for the first run to get money.

Surge effects:
Arcane arrester (25)
Celerity (5)

Negative:
Astral Hazing (10)
Scent gland (5) - special version. Effects are the same, but i want her to smell like flowers...would look for bypassers as if she had used too much perfume. Therefore lower costs - basically house-rule.

Connections:
8 points left. I think about somebody who would let me live in his condo for a while ^^

Annotations: putting this Char into the run will be no easy job for the GM, but i think the team will appreciate the potential effectivity of the char. Actionsofts for further skills (was thinking about demolitions, heavy weapons, throwing weapons etc.) are not that expensive and the most needed skills are available without the use of skillsofts. This can wait.
Having no lifestyle is a pain in the ass, but it is not the first char. that starts as squatter-level. I will let her arrive in Seattle only with the clothes she wears and her stuff in a backpack. My connection will be a high-loyal fixer or something similar (old lover-relationship) that she can use to rest here for some days (and get a job). Not worked out perfectly, but the direction is clear^^

The low essence should hinder the astral hazing to interfere with possible mages in the team, because i think i can tell them to stay 35cm´s away from me.^^

So, i think i can start playing on sat., if it doesn´t work out, my next char. will follow.^^

I thank you all for your help and if you have additional advice, i have time until saturday for changes.

[Stingray]

Sorry for the double-post, but the Edit-and-put-it-on-first-place-trick didn´t worked out. Don´t know why. So here it goes:


Race: Dwarf
Size: 1,60 (too big?)

Attributes:
Body: 3[7]
Agility: 5[7]
Strenght: 3[5]
Reaction: 3[7]
Intuition: 4
Charisma: 3
Logic: 3
Willpower: 4

Edge: 2
Essence: 0,35
Magic: 0
Initiative: 11 + 3 IP´s

Skills:
Firearms-Skillgroup: 4
Close-Combat Skillgroup: 4
- specialization dropped, will follow during gameplay
Athletics-Skillgroup: 1 (I don´t want negative pool-modifiers because i don´t have the skill at all...you never know when it´s needed)
- Gymnastics: 4 (+2) any Specialization that fits for dodging (will be worked out with the GM on Saturday)
Perception: 2
Infiltration: 2
Tracking: 2

Cyberware:
Move-by-Wire System 2
Cybereyes rating 3 (full equipped with everything that makes sense - dropped one rating, radar sensor skipped, you were right, it´s headware...follows during play)
Cyberears rating 3 (dropped one rating, equipment fits anyway)
2 Cyberspurs (just for the look) - maybe drop one, have to think about it.

Bioware:
Synthacardium rating 3
Enhanced articulation
Muscle toner & Muscle augmentation rating 2
Bone density rating 4

Edges:
Surge rating 3: (15)
Born rich: (10)
Restricted equipment: (5) (move by wire system)
Ambidexterous: (5)

Flaws:
Cranial bomb (10)
Day Job (5)
SINer (5)
Weak immune system (negates the metatypical ability to resist pathogens and poisons)

Equipment:
I take the low cost equiment that was mentioned above. Money comes up a little less than expected but enough for the first run to get money.

Surge effects:
Arcane arrester (25)
Celerity (5)

Negative:
Astral Hazing (10)
Scent gland (5) - special version. Effects are the same, but i want her to smell like flowers...would look for bypassers as if she had used too much perfume. Therefore lower costs - basically house-rule.

Connections:
8 points left. I think about somebody who would let me live in his condo for a while ^^

Annotations: putting this Char into the run will be no easy job for the GM, but i think the team will appreciate the potential effectivity of the char. Actionsofts for further skills (was thinking about demolitions, heavy weapons, throwing weapons etc.) are not that expensive and the most needed skills are available without the use of skillsofts. This can wait.
Having no lifestyle is a pain in the ass, but it is not the first char. that starts as squatter-level. I will let her arrive in Seattle only with the clothes she wears and her stuff in a backpack. My connection will be a high-loyal fixer or something similar (old lover-relationship) that she can use to rest here for some days (and get a job). Not worked out perfectly, but the direction is clear^^

The low essence should hinder the astral hazing to interfere with possible mages in the team, because i think i can tell them to stay 35cm´s away from me.^^

So, i think i can start playing on sat., if it doesn´t work out, my next char. will follow.^^

I thank you all for your help and if you have additional advice, i have time until saturday for changes.

Average Dwarf is 120 cm tall so 160cm is giant dwarf, so 120-130 is ok considering body modifications...

[Machiavelli]

I have the human-looking quality. Due to the fact that it lowers the metatypical-characteristics, it should negate the height-difference a bit. According to my informations, dwarfs don´t have any other really obvious characteristics than an shorter arms- and legs. And 5 points just for even more unflashy pointed ears would be to much.^^

[Cthulhudreams]

If you're going human looking, afaik, arn't you better off as an ork? You lose the +2 bod against toxins that I've never cared about ever, and you get 5 extra BP (enough to buy some bling) and an extra point of body?

[Larme]

...but the usual mage is dead before he received his first action phase. Of course, IF he has his phase, he can do some serious damage, but that can be done by a sam with a good weapon, too. And a mage has no semi-auto, burst- or full-auto fire, if the spell is strong, he also has a good chance that his first action is his last while the sam simply changes his clip when it�s empty. Nobody argues about semi-automatic grenade launchers that do 10P damage, with an AP of -1, but a 6P-area spell without armor is "the enemy" (don�t forget the possible bad roll at the drain resistance-test)? Sorry guys, we seem to have different kinds of logic.

This shows that your assumptions about mages are based on, no offense, ignorance of how to make a good mage build. You're right, if you've got a build that sucks so much that he gets geeked before he acts, then he didn't need a nerf. There are limitless ways to avoid this though -- hide in a safe place and sent spirits from the astral, sustain Improved Reflexes and Combat Sense, possess yourself with a strong spirit, take some cyberware... Mages when played properly do not suck, and the nerf is not unfair to them, because of their ability to dominate. Now, the nerfs fall on crappy mages just as much, making them crappier. But the difference between crappy and crappier is essentially academic. If your mage sucks, he sucks. The fact is, the nerfs in the final SR4A were very minor, practically no barrier at all to a well constructed mage build, so it's hard to support any part of your statement that the slight increase in OR was unfair.

[Larme]

Skills:
Firearms-Skillgroup: 4
Close-Combat Skillgroup: 4
- specialization dropped, will follow during gameplay
Athletics-Skillgroup: 1 (I don´t want negative pool-modifiers because i don´t have the skill at all...you never know when it´s needed)
- Gymnastics: 4 (+2) any Specialization that fits for dodging (will be worked out with the GM on Saturday)
Perception: 2
Infiltration: 2
Tracking: 2

You still haven't fixed these skill groups, they're a millstone around your neck weighing you down. You are flushing points down the toilet by learning firearms and close combat, it's more skills than you need for more point than you can afford.

Cyberware:
Move-by-Wire System 2
Cybereyes rating 3 (full equipped with everything that makes sense - dropped one rating, radar sensor skipped, you were right, it´s headware...follows during play)
Cyberears rating 3 (dropped one rating, equipment fits anyway)
2 Cyberspurs (just for the look) - maybe drop one, have to think about it.

Two spurs is good if you learn a martial art and Two Weapon Style. Otherwise it's a waste.

Surge effects:
Arcane arrester (25)
Celerity (5)

Negative:
Astral Hazing (10)
Scent gland (5) - special version. Effects are the same, but i want her to smell like flowers...would look for bypassers as if she had used too much perfume. Therefore lower costs - basically house-rule.

Smelling good is a flaw worth points? If you say so...

Annotations: putting this Char into the run will be no easy job for the GM, but i think the team will appreciate the potential effectivity of the char. Actionsofts for further skills (was thinking about demolitions, heavy weapons, throwing weapons etc.) are not that expensive and the most needed skills are available without the use of skillsofts. This can wait.

They're quite expensive under SR4A, rating x 10000 in cost.

[Machiavelli]

You still haven't fixed these skill groups, they're a millstone around your neck weighing you down. You are flushing points down the toilet by learning firearms and close combat, it's more skills than you need for more point than you can afford.

No weapon skill is useless. Ich can grab nearly everything that fires, cuts etc. and can fight effectively with it. Some skills aren´t used that often, right, but if you need them most, you don´t have them. Can´t happen to my char. If i would purchase them afterwards, i could never get them as cheap as now. Skill groups rock!!!

Two spurs is good if you learn a martial art and Two Weapon Style. Otherwise it's a waste.

We don´t use the martial arts up to now. Like I said, it´s basically for the look. If you go, go in Style. And would Wolverine look good with claws just on one hand? No, he wouldn´t. You see?...

Smelling good is a flaw worth points? If you say so...

Of course it is, if it is too extreme. I already mentioned the massive amount of smell that will be produced by her. I think wherever you are from, you have old grannies around you, that use too much perfume. Have a sniff and come back to your statement

They're quite expensive under SR4A, rating x 10000 in cost.

We don´t play SR4A up to now. They didn´t even have the book in the printed version. I also mentioned several times that I refuse to play SR4A...so up to SR4 they are incredibly cheap (and already included in my cyber)

[Machiavelli]

If you're going human looking, afaik, arn't you better off as an ork? You lose the +2 bod against toxins that I've never cared about ever, and you get 5 extra BP (enough to buy some bling) and an extra point of body?

Yeah, but i also lose the point in willpower, will have more trouble when somebody is noticing that i´m actually NOT an norm and orks stink.^^

[Larme]

No weapon skill is useless. Ich can grab nearly everything that fires, cuts etc. and can fight effectively with it. Some skills aren´t used that often, right, but if you need them most, you don´t have them. Can´t happen to my char. If i would purchase them afterwards, i could never get them as cheap as now. Skill groups rock!!!

I have never once in all my years of Shadowrun been forced to "grab" a random weapon. And even if you were, it doesn't matter worth a damn for your character, since you've got blades in your arms that can't be taken away. No, your skill groups are a huge waste of BP, and it's a shame that you can't understand that.

We don´t play SR4A up to now. They didn´t even have the book in the printed version. I also mentioned several times that I refuse to play SR4A...so up to SR4 they are incredibly cheap (and already included in my cyber)

If you "refuse" to play SR4A, you should take a look at the errata. I bet you will like almost all of them. Your objections are 98% likely to be based on false rumor and inaccurate hearsay, and not reality. That's what I've found with every person who shares your view so far.

[Machiavelli]

I have never once in all my years of Shadowrun been forced to "grab" a random weapon. And even if you were, it doesn't matter worth a damn for your character, since you've got blades in your arms that can't be taken away. No, your skill groups are a huge waste of BP, and it's a shame that you can't understand that.



If you "refuse" to play SR4A, you should take a look at the errata. I bet you will like almost all of them. Your objections are 98% likely to be based on false rumor and inaccurate hearsay, and not reality. That's what I've found with every person who shares your view so far.

I don´t know which settings you play, but i have experienced more than on encounter, where our weapons blew up, got damaged or whatever. So you had to take what you could get. If i get only the automatics-skill and get access only to a sniper-rifle or a shotgun, i will look like a jackass. I would never specialize on one of this skills from the group, because they are all important. I have never heard such a lame argument, sorry. Sure, i don´t need the close combat group at all if i have spurs, but sometimes slicing your opponent is no option, sometimes you need to grab a billard-queue to hit the shit out of somebody or use a stun-club. Doesn´t work with "bladed-weapons - cyberspur". Maybe making french-fries out of your enemies is common in your group, but not in ours.

I have the SR4A book as a PDF and i also read the erratas. But the object resistance is still higher and i haven´t read a section that doubles a mages dice or whatever. So it is worser than before and therefore not a good thing. Sure there are a lot of things that got better, but none of them was for the mages. I can only remember a stupid optional rule for direct combat spells, the rise of the OR-table, the gimping of the movement power etc. If you see an improvement in one of this things, than you have a very special kind of logic.^^ If i would play a Ki-Ad, i would agree with you, but i´m playing a mage, so i don´t agree. It´s so easy sometimes.

[Larme]

I don´t know which settings you play, but i have experienced more than on encounter, where our weapons blew up, got damaged or whatever. So you had to take what you could get. If i get only the automatics-skill and get access only to a sniper-rifle or a shotgun, i will look like a jackass. I would never specialize on one of this skills from the group, because they are all important. I have never heard such a lame argument, sorry. Sure, i don´t need the close combat group at all if i have spurs, but sometimes slicing your opponent is no option, sometimes you need to grab a billard-queue to hit the shit out of somebody or use a stun-club. Doesn´t work with "bladed-weapons - cyberspur". Maybe making french-fries out of your enemies is common in your group, but not in ours.

So learn Unarmed. Buy a shock glove. Don't take cyberspurs. You admit that you're wasting points, because you have spurs that you often won't be able to use. I really don't give a damn that you're wasting points, wasting points is fine as long as you know that you're doing it, just don't tell me that you're going to be able to use clubs AND blades AND unarmed AND longarms AND pitols AND automatics, all with enough frequency to be worth it. You're probably a lost cause as you're not resisting logical arguments with logically valid counters. The best I can hope for is that others will read this and get a good primer on how NOT to build an optimized character.

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, but i also lose the point in willpower, will have more trouble when somebody is noticing that i´m actually NOT an norm and orks stink.^^

Sure, but you save 15 BP, 10 of which you spend on the point of willpower. If I do the maths correctly.

[Machiavelli]

So learn Unarmed. Buy a shock glove. Don't take cyberspurs. You admit that you're wasting points, because you have spurs that you often won't be able to use. I really don't give a damn that you're wasting points, wasting points is fine as long as you know that you're doing it, just don't tell me that you're going to be able to use clubs AND blades AND unarmed AND longarms AND pitols AND automatics, all with enough frequency to be worth it. You're probably a lost cause as you're not resisting logical arguments with logically valid counters. The best I can hope for is that others will read this and get a good primer on how NOT to build an optimized character.

You are a funny guy. You are talking about logical arguments but you oversee that your personal opinion doesn´t embrace "logic". If you would have read my posts properly, you would have seen that i have admitted, that i am not going to use most of the skills very often. I´m aware of this. But i am going to play some sort of jack-of-all-trades in the field of killing. So combat skills are my everyday work. I really don´t see why they should be useless. A combat oriented character that can only shoot with automatics....THAT´s what i call stupid. If you can deal with such an character...fine. But you should never come in a situation without an automag.

I anyway have no other skills i would say they are worth to purchase at character creation, so i keep them for later and put my BP´s in really serious stuff. We checked out that social skills are not very important for me, i have the most important ones available from the start and through the lot of points i spent for them, i don´t have to raise them a long time. And even if i want to, i don´t have to spent a lot of karma because they are nearly maxed. For me, thats a quite good starting point.

You are right that i´m a twinker, but somewhere is a frontier, where creating a character that fits your concept is more important than checking out how often a skill comes in use or not. I know that i´m prepared for every fight with this char, you can´t say the same. So whose char is better?

Sure, but you save 15 BP, 10 of which you spend on the point of willpower. If I do the maths correctly.

Right, i would save 5 points, but i simply don´t like orcs. Thats it. Low lifespan (not vital in the game, but for my inner peace), ugly, dumb....wouldn´t be able to be comfortable with this. And like i said: there is a chance that NPC´s notice that you are not human, and orcs gain a lot more of cultural bias than dwarfs. Not worth the 5 points.

[Larme]

You are a funny guy. You are talking about logical arguments but you oversee that your personal opinion doesn´t embrace "logic". If you would have read my posts properly, you would have seen that i have admitted, that i am not going to use most of the skills very often. I´m aware of this. But i am going to play some sort of jack-of-all-trades in the field of killing. So combat skills are my everyday work. I really don´t see why they should be useless. A combat oriented character that can only shoot with automatics....THAT´s what i call stupid. If you can deal with such an character...fine. But you should never come in a situation without an automag.

All I can say is, I hope you have a low powered campaign and a forgiving GM. I hope others, who do care about optimization, take a good lesson away from this: versatility is good, but too much is a bad thing. Too much versatility and you are piling on redundant skills which hurt you more than help you. But if you *ever* manage to hit the grand slam and use every one of the 6 combat skills you're buying, I'd love to hear about it. I predict, however, that your character will die or the campaign will end before you manage that. If that's fine with you, then it's fine with you. I just like to stab the point home -- if you wanna run with the big boys, don't over-generalize. It costs you dearly. You can ignore all my experience, you can spit in my face and call me stupid for giving friendly advice. Whatever. At this point, it's not for your benefit. I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm just doing damage control. False build ideas, like "knowing every combat skill is a useful thing," or "you must have at least 3 social dice," just get my dander up. That's why I don't stay silent when people put them forth, especially not after being so thoroughly discredited. You yourself admit that optimization doesn't matter, so why keep insisting that you've got a good reason for what you're doing? You don't have one, and that's fine, so you can quit trying to justify it. It's a bad idea, but it's your character, not mine. Just don't go telling noobs to do as you do.

[Machiavelli]

Muahahaha....ok. I thought my last post would have ended the topic, but i was wrong.^^

Ok...listen: i play a warrior character and i have all the combat skills. And YOU tell me that i waste points? What should i save them for? I spent all possible points on the attributes, we play SR4 not SR4A so raising an attribute is cheaper for me than a skill group...therefore i rather raise the group at creation that additional attributes. Edge is always an option but therefore see the above sentence. I think i survive the first 2 or 3 runs and 1 point in edge won´t be "THE" thing i need to do so.

So what skills am i missing that make the day of an combat oriented character impossible? Maybe i should add "artisan - drawing"? Or cooking? Please don´t forget the skillwires and the info in the upper paragraph. We play SR4...they are cheap. One or two runs and I can afford one. And i will still have money left for additional ID´s, ammo...whatever. I see no missing skills. Not ones, i can´t take later during game. My Cyber boosts my low skills in a way, that i can compete easily with every other char. But hey: you lament around, so tell me what you think. Like I said, I´m open for things i missed. That´s why i opened this topic. Sometimes you are so focused on your idea, that you oversee something. Enlighten me...please.

[Larme]

For one thing, Heavy Weapons. That's the best combat skill shy of automatics, because it includes airburst grenade launchers. For another thing, all your other skills could be higher instead of being at 2's and 4's. Some of your attributes could be better. You could have a driving skill, and a vehicle. That's just a few ideas. Those points you are spending on redundant skills could make you more powerful. Right now, they do not, they just make you a little bit better in case the unthinkable happens and you both lose all of your weapons and ALSO can't cut people up with cyberspurs, you just HAVE to shock them with a shock club. I'll just come out and say it, that's never going to happen. If you care about your build's power you will rue your wasted points at some point. It's not something you necessarily care about, of course. That's not a wrong way to play. It's just not how I play, and it's not what I give advice about.

[Machiavelli]

Ok, now heres something i can work with. Like I said i boost my perception an inflitration skill with cyber. I think 9 dices on both are enough for the beginning. No other char. in our group has more.

Driving skill is not needed, because I

a) have no vehicle and
b) can use the approbriate attribute (reaction) 6 dices should be enough to get from point A to point B.

For all the other things, we have a rigger. And if i have to run the escape-car, the shit already hit the fan.^^

Heavy weapons are ever more seldom on the street than my choices but even without it, I have 8 dices for grenade launchers. Basically i wanted to save points and buy it with skillsofts (like throwing weapons). Important, sure. But not THAT important.

I will update you as soon as i have used all skills.^^

[Larme]

Ok, now heres something i can work with. Like I said i boost my perception an inflitration skill with cyber. I think 9 dices on both are enough for the beginning. No other char. in our group has more.

How much have you played SR4? 9 dice sucks. It *really* sucks. On average, it's only 3 hits, but with the unpredictability of 5+ hits, you'll find yourself getting 0-1 as often as 3+. And pile on a very few modifiers, and you lose. Just a -4 is all it takes to put you into critical glitch territory. 9 dice is enough to do an easy task with no negative mods. If you think 9 dice is enough in geneal, either you're not that experienced with SR4, or your GM sets the power level very low. For an important skill like perception or infiltration, there's pretty much no such thing as enough, more is always better until you max out, because maxing out is inefficient. But until just before you max out, more is better, and enough is not a real thing.