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Machiavelli
The following statistics show an street-sam variant that is mainly to cause damage without sucking too much by taking damage by itself. Up to now I don´t have a special purpose or backround story for him, but I think he is playable. Missing skills will be realized later due to the build-in skillwire expert system from the move-by-wire-system. Now have a look, it can only get better.^^

Attributes:
Race: Norm
Body: 2[6]
Agility: 5[7]
Strenght: 4[6]
Reaction: 4[8]
Intuition: 4
Charisma: 1
Logic: 4
Willpower: 4

Edge: 2
Essence: 0,15
Magic: ...you are funny.^^
Initiative: 12 + 3 IP´s

Skills:
Firearms-Skillgroup: 4
Close-Combat Skillgroup: 4
- cracked apart: Specialisation bladed weapons: Cyberimplant. weapons (Spurs)
Athletics-Skillgroup: 2
- cracked apart (houserule) during character creation: Gymnastics: 4 (+2) Specialization Athletics dodge
Perception: 2
Infiltration: 2
Tracking: 2

Cyberware:
Move-by-Wire System 2
Cybereyes rating 4 (full equipped with everything that makes sense-including radar sensor)
Cyberears rating 4 (see above)
2 Cyberspurs (just for the look)

Bioware:
Synthacardium rating 3
Enhanced articulation
Muscle toner & Muscle augmentation rating 2
Bone density rating 4

Edges:
Surge rating 3: (15)
Born rich: (10)
Restricted equipment: (5) (move by wire system)
Ambidexterous: (5)

Flaws:
not sure jet.

Equipment:
not much money left.

Surge effects:
Arcane arrester (25)
(the thing that increases walking rate, forgot the name): 5....Edit: celerity

Negative: Astral Hazing (10)

Connections:
5 points left for this, i think i will take a fixer

Question:
Due to the massive amount of bio- and cyberware, there is merely some money left. Up to now I am still swapping points to get at least basic equipment. At the moment, I just want your critics where e.g. possible mistakes are build in, which solutions don´t work RAW etc. Thank you very much in advance for your help.
Stingray
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 8 2009, 02:02 PM) *
The following statistics show an street-sam variant that is mainly to cause damage without sucking too much by taking damage by itself. Up to now I don�t have a special purpose or backround story for him, but I think he is playable. Missing skills will be realized later due to the build-in skillwire expert system from the move-by-wire-system. Now have a look, it can only get better.^^

Attributes:
Race: Norm
Body: 2[6]
Agility: 5[7]
Strenght: 4[6]
Reaction: 4[8]
Intuition: 4
Charisma: 1
Logic: 4
Willpower: 4

Edge: 2
Essence: 0,15
Magic: ...you are funny.^^
Initiative: 12 + 3 IP´s

Skills:
Firearms-Skillgroup: 4
Close-Combat Skillgroup: 4
- cracked apart: Specialisation bladed weapons: Cyberimplant. weapons (Spurs)
Athletics-Skillgroup: 2
- cracked apart (houserule) during character creation: Gymnastics: 4 (+2) Specialization Athletics dodge
Perception: 2
Infiltration: 2
Tracking: 2

Cyberware:
Move-by-Wire System 2
Cybereyes rating 4 (full equipped with everything that makes sense-including radar sensor)
Cyberears rating 4 (see above)
2 Cyberspurs (just for the look)

Bioware:
Synthacardium rating 3
Enhanced articulation
Muscle toner & Muscle augmentation rating 2
Bone density rating 4

Edges:
Surge rating 3: (15)
Born rich: (10)
Restricted equipment: (5) (move by wire system)
Ambidexterous: (5)

Flaws:
not sure jet.

Equipment:
not much money left.

Surge effects:
Arcane arrester (25)
(the thing that increases walking rate, forgot the name): 5....Edit: celerity

Negative: Astral Hazing (10)

Connections:
5 points left for this, i think i will take a fixer

Question:
Due to the massive amount of bio- and cyberware, there is merely some money left. Up to now I am still swapping points to get at least basic equipment. At the moment, I just want your critics where e.g. possible mistakes are build in, which solutions don´t work RAW etc. Thank you very much in advance for your help.

..at first: Body 2 for Street Samurai means no good armor can be worn.(max 2xBody=4), Charisma 1 and no Etiquette Skill (Default -1 =0 Die)
If i remember correctly attack with spur is Str/2+3,you can drop Str to 3(5)(damage is rounded up)
Born Rich Quality does not give you automatically more money,it just gives you means to raise max money to 60bp (300k)
--
I Showed this character to my friend and here it goes... :

Race. Human (0 Bp)
Attributes (200 Bp)
Active Skills (130 Bp)
Knowledge Skills (21 free)
Gear&Lifestyle (50 Bp)
Contacts (10 Bp) (enought for Fixer and one other)
390 Bp used (10 bp is being used to buy (10 bp=50k) max money of 300k)
B 3 20 bp
A 5 [7] 40 bp
R 4 [8] 30 bp
S 3 [5] 20 bp
I 5 40 bp
L 2 10 bp
W 4 30 bp
C 2 10 bp
E 2 0 bp

35 Bp worth of negative Flaws

35 bp worth of positive Flaws:
Born Rich 10 bp (and raising max cash to 300k (50bp cash-->60 bp), KA-CHING!!
Surge (lvl 3 ) 15 bp
Restricted Equipment 5 bp
Ambidextrous 5 bp

and here u go..loaded for anything,can use 6/4 armor.. playable Steet Samurai..
Meatbag
If you're going for hideous twinkery, as you seem to be, drop the firearms and close combat skill groups, and go for broadly-applicable specializations. Blades 4 (Cyber-Implant Weapons +2) and Automatics 4 (Assault Rifles +2), are more effective - use a machine pistol in a concealed holster as a sidearm.



5 BP gets you one level of Krav Maga. Use this to make Take Aim a free action. Coupled with the vision magnification on your cybereyes, this means your assault rifle can make shots out to 550m with relative ease.

If you need more money, the Bone Density levels should be the first to go. +1 damage resistance isn't worth 20k, and you're already doing physical damage with your implanted spurs. You'd be better off buying armor with that cash.

Here's what you can buy for 20k:

An FN 5-7C with Gas Vent 3 and External Smartgun: 1400.

A Colt M23 with Gas Vent 3, Shock Pad and External Smartgun: 1600

A Chameleon Suit for missions: 8000

An Armor Vest for day-to-day protection: 600.

Comes out to about 11,600, leaving you 9,400 for a commlink, ammo, armor mods, fake credentials, vehicles, hookers and beer.

Note that Bone Density does NOT add to Body directly, it just grants an extra die for damage resistance. Not worth it.
Machiavelli
I would say bone density is the best thing on the market. It is expensive, yes, but in comparison with the equivalent cyber, it gives more body dices, no stupid armor that can be negated via AP-cpability of ammo or the weapon itself, it is LEGAL and you get the physical damage for free. The spurs are just for the look, therefore i have two if them. and where is the difference between body-dices and dices for damage resistance tests? regarding the armor and encumbering rules you are right, I have to check this once more. I think that I will also lower the strenght like you said and raise body.

Regarding the skill-groups, the character is build to be combat-ready with every weapon he can catch, so taking only two specializations would be a real disadvantage. Maybe I will lower one skillgroup which grants 10 points or I will drop another skill that can be displaced by skillsoft.

Born rich is calculated in, therefore I had no points left for charisma or charisma-linked skills. I hope somebody in the team will negotiate for me.^^

The item-list is cool, thank you for that. Low-cost-runner...here i go.^^
Meatbag
Bone Density's bonuses can't be negated by AP, true, but I'm still not sure it's worth the price for a cash-strapped runner. Keep in mind you haven't bought a Lifestyle, a vehicle or Fake SINs yet, which are big money sinks. Your choice, though. If you've got a group Lifestyle and/or a group wheelman with a van, you can get away with not having the first two.

Regarding versatility: Krav Maga with an assault rifle gives you ranges comparable with sport rifles, and a machine pistol can be used as a sidearm or a poor man's SMG. What more do you need?

If you're absolutely married to that idea, though. at least replace the Close Combat Group with Blades (Implanted +2). Your implants can't be taken away, so they effectively replace Unarmed Combat.

Traul
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 8 2009, 04:59 PM) *
Born rich is calculated in, therefore I had no points left for charisma or charisma-linked skills. I hope somebody in the team will negotiate for me.^^

It is much worse than that. It is the practically equivalent to the Uncouth default: you cannot default on social skills, as your dice pool would be 0 (and you don't have much Edge to try a long shot either). As you don't have any social skill either, you are completely unable to do anything. Keep a low profile while walking through a gang's turf? Look unassuming when crossing a Lone Star patrol, although you are sporting illegal cyberware? Too hard for you. You don't need somebody to negociate for you, you need sombody to hold your hand as soon as leave your home.

A Charisma score of 2 or at least 1 rank in Etiquette would enable to live your daily life.

Apart from that:

- you don't need the close combat skill group at all: your spurs will always be with you, so no need for anything else.
- the "Gymnastics dodge" specialisation does not exist, for a very good reason as it would break the balance with Dodge.
- you don't have any money left to buy skillsofts.
- you boost both Gymnastics and Dodge, but you will only use one of them.
- the 2 last remarks make your Move-By-Wire useless. The only thing it brings you is the extra Reaction boost.
- the radar sensor is Headware. It does not fit into a cybereye.
- you need another 5 point SURGE negative quality.
- you get nothing out of your 4 Logic, as you don't have any skill to match it.
- don't forget to pick up 35 points of negative qualities...

I think you should make choices here: do you want a mercenary type, with high athletic abilities and wide weapon knowledge, or a cable guy with heavy cyber and wired skills? Right now, you're trying to do everything, and finally achieve none.
Machiavelli
Athletic dodge really exists. I can´t give you a page, but i will look for it. If the additional dice you get for dodge-tests from the MBWS also count for the athetic dodge is another question. I hope so....the GM will tell me more.

The last missing 5 negative SURGE-points will be covered by the scent glands (discussion with the GM) i thought about making her (it´s a woman, new info) smell like different flowers...causing her the streetname "Blossom". Boah....sounds gay.^^

You are absolutely right about the social skills. Maybe I will switch some points here.

Regarding the negative Qualities, i just didn´t decide which ones will be the "ones". I thought about Amnesia and a Cortex Bomb in correspondence with a Spirit Bane and SINer (no criminal SIN). (Character is a former contract-killer from a local criminal association...or something like that.)^^

@Meatbag: That the bone density-augmentation is quite expensive, is for sure. But i think it will pay off because I get a high body from the start and I don´t have to update them in the future (they are already maxed). You can´t get titanium bones from the beginning and airport visits are also not your favourite hangouts.^^

Close combat could be dropped, yes, but maybe I have to deal with some ritual fights in the future where weapons are not allowed or no option? Maybe my cyber is turned off or broken....whatever...I am prepared.^^ All vital skills (expect the social ones...sure) are innate and he is playable even if he got hacked (not he eyes...please..^^)
Stingray
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 8 2009, 09:13 PM) *
Athletic dodge really exists. I can´t give you a page, but i will look for it. If the additional dice you get for dodge-tests from the MBWS also count for the athetic dodge is another question. I hope so....the GM will tell me more.

You are absolutely right about the social skills. Maybe I will switch some points here, too.

Regarding the negative Qualities, i just didn´t decide which ones will be the "ones". I thought about Amnesia and a Cortex Bomb in correspondence with a Spirit Bane and SINer (no criminal SIN). (Character is a former contract-killer from a local criminal association...or something like that.)^^

@Meatbag: That the bone density-augmentation is quite expensive, is for sure. But i think it will pay off because I get a high body from the start and I don�t have to update them in the future (they are already maxed). You can�t get titanium bones from the beginning and airport visits are also not your favourite hangouts.^^

Close combat could be dropped, yes, but maybe I have to deal with some ritual fights in the future where weapons are not allowed or no option? Maybe my cyber is turned off or broken....whatever...I am prepared.^^ All vital skills (expect the social ones...sure) are innate and he is playable even if he got hacked (not he eyes...please..^^)


.."normal" good negative qualities would be: Weak Immune System 5 bp (PC:s who have extensive Body modifications..),Scorched,Sinner(normal 5 bp)
Incompetant,Addiction(mild)(Alcohol),from Runner's Companion Day Job and Poor Self Control..just remember as some qualities give Notoriety..
Machiavelli
Check. I like the Weak Immune System and the day job. I want her to be a stereotypical sociopathic killer, so Poor Self Control would be a quick ticket to hell...i will skip this one.^^ About Scorched I have to check which consequenses this could have.
Traul
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 8 2009, 08:13 PM) *
Athletic dodge really exists. I can´t give you a page, but i will look for it. If the additional dice you get for dodge-tests from the MBWS also count for the athetic dodge is another question. I hope so....the GM will tell me more.


You can use Gymnastics to dodge, but there is no specialisation that applies. The Dodge skill has 2 specialisations: Ranged or Melee. So there is no specialisation that always applies. If there was an athletic dodge specialisation for Gymnastics, it would apply to all situations and make the Dodge skill useless.

Move-By-Wire directly increases your Dodge skill, so it does not work with Gymnastics.

QUOTE
Close combat could be dropped, yes, but maybe I have to deal with some ritual fights in the future where weapons are not allowed or no option? Maybe my cyber is turned off or broken....whatever...I am prepared.^^ All vital skills (expect the social ones...sure) are innate and he is playable even if he got hacked (not he eyes...please..^^)


If this is what you want, genetech might be the way to go. Reakt adds 2 dice to all Reaction-based defense rolls (even when not in full defense) and Synch adds 1 die to all combat rolls, no matter with which weapon.
Machiavelli
Core-book page 151 says:

Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can
spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of
danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against
either ranged or melee attacks.

...i also heard other players here to use it like that.

I swapped the metatype of my char from norm to dwarf. I will update tomorrow. For this version I try to get an genetic optimization for Reaction. But it will have to wait until play or leave some other implants. This stuff is expensive.
Traul
OK, for the third time:

You CAN use Gymnastics to dodge. You CANNOT buy the Gymnastics dodge specialization that does not exist. No +2 to all dodge rolls for 1 BP.
Machiavelli
But you can specialize in tumbling or whatever and use this specialization to dodge...and it is 2 bp´s. So the dodge skill is RAW useless.
Larme
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 8 2009, 06:02 AM) *
Skills:
Firearms-Skillgroup: 4
Close-Combat Skillgroup: 4
- cracked apart: Specialisation bladed weapons: Cyberimplant. weapons (Spurs)
Athletics-Skillgroup: 2
- cracked apart (houserule) during character creation: Gymnastics: 4 (+2) Specialization Athletics dodge
Perception: 2
Infiltration: 2
Tracking: 2


I think it's been said, but I'll chime in to agree -- you are literally pissing away points on your skill groups here. You're spending 80 points on close combat and firearms, that's 20% of your entire points to buy skills which are pretty much 100% redundant. Make a character who can punch OR wield a club OR wield a blade. You are not benefitted in any substantial way by leaning all three. Either a) stick with cyberspurs, learn blades (cyber implant) and drop the skill group, or go with Unarmed (martial arts) and drop the spurs (your hands do physical damage anyway with bone density), or go with Clubs (improvised) and melee harden your guns and hit people with them. Any one is good, but all three is flushing perfectly good BP down the crapper.

Same goes for the firearms group. You've got no conceiveable reason to need pistols AND automatics AND longarms. *Maybe* Pistols + one other, pistols being useful because they're the most concealable. But honestly, all you need is longarms or automatics -- automics provides good sidearms (machine pistols) and some of the best all purpose weapons (assault rifles), while Longarms provides decent sidearms (sawed off Defiance) and some very handy combat weapons (burstfire shotguns and sniper rifles). All three together is just points down the drain. IMO, the best combination is Automatics + Heavy Weapons (grenade launchers), because of the power of airburst minigrenade launchers. But instead of heavy weapons, you have redundant skills from the Firearms group. Lose it, and spend your points jacking up your other skills and attributes.

Especially raise gymnastics -- you've got a 2 in your primary defense skill? Bad idea. Sure you've got it pumped up with cyber, but you've really got no excuse not to take it higher. I'd say, drop the Athletics group and just get Gymnastics. Running sucks, you can already run without rolling, the skill just makes you a little faster. Swimming too -- all it does is make you a little faster, and when's the last time you had a swimming race in Shadowrun? Same with climbing. Lose it, climbing is for noobs who think that the best way to break in is always the roof. Gymanstics on the other hand is very useful, being a defense skill, as well as jumping and balancing.

And as has been pointed out, move by wires are pretty wasteful here -- I'd grab alpha wired reflexes, and reaction enhancers instead. You don't need to pay that extra money for bonuses you can't really use, since you're a gymnastics dodger. And skillwires are no longer all that, with SR4A setting the cost of skillwires at rating x 10,000.



I have to disagree on social skills though. There is this idea circulating that people with low social skills can't accomplish everyday tasks. This is erroneous. Normal, everyday tasks have a threshold of 0, no roll is required. I can drive down the street without crashing if I have a 1 reaction and no car skill, because a slow drive down the street does not require a roll. Similarly, I can order food at the Burger Hut without rolling, because there is literally no chance of anyone failing that task unless they do it on purpose. People wrongfully assume that having no social skills makes you have to roll for all kinds of things that normal people would not need to roll for. This is false and unwarranted by RAW. You will fail if a more difficult situation crops up (i.e. a cop wants to know what you're doing and you need to provide a satisfactory answer), but living daily life works just fine as long as you keep your head down and mouth closed as much as possible. The only way that you literally can't get through life without a problem is when you're Uncouth -- that means you don't even have any idea of manners or etiquette, you're Untrained. You cannot accomplish easy tasks without a roll because you've literally got no idea that it's wrong to order food by saying "Give me a burger, shitface, or I'll rape you." That's not what charisma 1 and no social skills means. Charisma 1 and no social skills is not Untrained in social skills, you have the basic idea, and you can accomplish everyday tasks that don't require rolls like ordering food. You should be able to rely on your team for the heavy lifting socially -- it's mystifying to me that everyone thinks the stupid thug muscle needs a paltry few dice in social skills, like that's somehow important to the team. I'm not saying that it's wrong to have social skills on a sammy, I'm saying that you shouldn't listen to everyone who says you *have* to. It's your choice, whether you want to roleplay someone who's really unlikeable and antisocial, or whether you'd like to be more normal.

QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 8 2009, 02:23 PM) *
But you can specialize in tumbling or whatever and use this specialization to dodge...and it is 2 bp´s. So the dodge skill is RAW useless.


That's a matter of interpretation. Technically, what you're doing when you gymnastics dodge is doing Gymnastics Dodge, not Tumbling. The rules for Gymnastics Dodge say nothing about the Tumbling specialization applying. They do describe the way you gymnastics dodge as jumping and flipping and such, so you could decide that it uses the Tumbling specialization. But it's equally valid to say you don't... So far, the consensus I've seen is that per RAW, you cannot apply any specializations to Gymnastics Dodge.

QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 8 2009, 01:51 PM) *
You can use Gymnastics to dodge, but there is no specialisation that applies. The Dodge skill has 2 specialisations: Ranged or Melee. So there is no specialisation that always applies. If there was an athletic dodge specialisation for Gymnastics, it would apply to all situations and make the Dodge skill useless.


Well said, I think that about clinches it. You could decide that Tumbling works, and it wouldn't make you a crazy madman if you thought that. But you'd have to consider the systemic ramifications -- Dodge would become worthless, we'd have to cross it out of the book for all the good it would do anyone. Not the right way to treat it, IMO, not with all the stacks of dice you can add on to Gymnastics rolls as it is (especially with the new Positive Quality in Companion that provides yet another shot in the arm to gymnastics dodgers).
Stingray
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 8 2009, 10:10 PM) *
Core-book page 151 says:

Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can
spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of
danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against
either ranged or melee attacks.

...i also heard other players here to use it like that.

I swapped the metatype of my char from norm to dwarf. I will update tomorrow. For this version I try to get an genetic optimization for Reaction. But it will have to wait until play or leave some other implants. This stuff is expensive.

...I would forget genetic optimization...Too expensive for small raise to Reaction..
Take Exeptional Attribute (Reaction) (20 bp),Then raise it to natural almost max(5)+ implants..
Traul
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 8 2009, 09:37 PM) *
I have to disagree on social skills though. There is this idea circulating that people with low social skills can't accomplish everyday tasks. This is erroneous. Normal, everyday tasks have a threshold of 0, no roll is required. I can drive down the street without crashing if I have a 1 reaction and no car skill, because a slow drive down the street does not require a roll. Similarly, I can order food at the Burger Hut without rolling, because there is literally no chance of anyone failing that task unless they do it on purpose. People wrongfully assume that having no social skills makes you have to roll for all kinds of things that normal people would not need to roll for. This is false and unwarranted by RAW. You will fail if a more difficult situation crops up (i.e. a cop wants to know what you're doing and you need to provide a satisfactory answer), but living daily life works just fine as long as you keep your head down and mouth closed as much as possible. The only way that you literally can't get through life without a problem is when you're Uncouth -- that means you don't even have any idea of manners or etiquette, you're Untrained. You cannot accomplish easy tasks without a roll because you've literally got no idea that it's wrong to order food by saying "Give me a burger, shitface, or I'll rape you." That's not what charisma 1 and no social skills means. Charisma 1 and no social skills is not Untrained in social skills, you have the basic idea, and you can accomplish everyday tasks that don't require rolls like ordering food. You should be able to rely on your team for the heavy lifting socially -- it's mystifying to me that everyone thinks the stupid thug muscle needs a paltry few dice in social skills, like that's somehow important to the team. I'm not saying that it's wrong to have social skills on a sammy, I'm saying that you shouldn't listen to everyone who says you *have* to. It's your choice, whether you want to roleplay someone who's really unlikeable and antisocial, or whether you'd like to be more normal.


RAW don't talk about "everyday tasks". They say there should be no roll for actions the character should be able to hande easily. What is easy depends on the character, and the decision belongs to the GM. What can he rely on to estimate the PC's abilities ? His stats.

What exactly can be considered as easy for someone who is completely unable to handle the slightest problem? While 0 is the basic level for a skill, 1 is stated as weak for an attribute. When you think about what the average guy can do, the average guy has at 0 in all skills and 2 in all attributes. This means he has a dice pool of 1. If you fall below that, it is normal to have to roll for things that the average guy would find trivial. Uncouth is different: you have to roll even if your dice pool should be enough, because you don't safely master the skill.

Of course, there is no problem to order a burger: that guy wants to sell you a burger anyway.

But this is Shadowrun. All the people you meet are not paid to please you. We already talked about gangs and cops. How about a racist policlub, not of your meta of course? A sect wishing to bring you enlightenment? A crook who sees the fool in you? These are all daily encounters and they would all call for an opposed test, since there is an opposition. As soon as you leave Downtown, the streets can become very dangerous for an easy prey. You are ready to fall for any scam. And some of those are organ smugglers.
Larme
QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 8 2009, 08:05 PM) *
RAW don't talk about "everyday tasks". They say there should be no roll for actions the character should be able to hande easily. What is easy depends on the character, and the decision belongs to the GM. What can he rely on to estimate the PC's abilities ? His stats.

What exactly can be considered as easy for someone who is completely unable to handle the slightest problem? While 0 is the basic level for a skill, 1 is stated as weak for an attribute. When you think about what the average guy can do, the average guy has at 0 in all skills and 2 in all attributes. This means he has a dice pool of 1. If you fall below that, it is normal to have to roll for things that the average guy would find trivial. Uncouth is different: you have to roll even if your dice pool should be enough, because you don't safely master the skill.

Of course, there is no problem to order a burger: that guy wants to sell you a burger anyway.

But this is Shadowrun. All the people you meet are not paid to please you. We already talked about gangs and cops. How about a racist policlub, not of your meta of course? A sect wishing to bring you enlightenment? A crook who sees the fool in you? These are all daily encounters and they would all call for an opposed test, since there is an opposition. As soon as you leave Downtown, the streets can become very dangerous for an easy prey. You are ready to fall for any scam. And some of those are organ smugglers.


Well, we agree more or less -- no roll to buy a burger no matter how low your social skills are, unless you're Uncouth.

Now, what you're describing is essentially Random Encounters. They are pointless little "fuck you player" events that don't have anything to do with the story, and wouldn't be part of any good GM's do to list. Furthermore, you could get scammed, but if you're a big violent lunkhead, you can probably deter scams by killing the first few people who scam you. Once you have a few points of Notoriety as a murdering bastard, people will leave you alone. You can also attach yourself to a team member who's not as socially clumsy as you, maybe live with and protect the team's face, and she'll protect you from the socially predatory.

The only thing I'm saying is, don't let people tell you that a combat character must have social skills. It's inconvenient not to, but each character can fill his own niche without agonizing about how he doesn't fill someone else's niche. In fact, it's been suggested on here that charisma 2 and Influence 1 would be valuable to this character -- that's a pile of crap. 3 dice is still statistically insufficient for you to succeed at a social test of any real difficulty. You'd still get scammed almost exactly as much. Until you're looking at 5 dice or better, your risk of critical glitch is so high you don't even want to roll. If you don't have a *good* social pool, you might as well not have one at all, because functionally it's about the same either way. What people are suggesting is essentially a fluff social pool, one that's too small to do anything, but big enough to say "well, he's a little bit social." I think it's wrong to tell people that such a fluff pool is required. It's his choice, and that's all there is to it. He, and everyone, should be aware of both sides of this argument, rather than simply being told that wasting points on tiny, useless social pools is somehow necessary to a successful combat character.
CodeBreaker
QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 9 2009, 02:05 AM) *
But this is Shadowrun. All the people you meet are not paid to please you. We already talked about gangs and cops. How about a racist policlub, not of your meta of course? A sect wishing to bring you enlightenment? A crook who sees the fool in you? These are all daily encounters and they would all call for an opposed test, since there is an opposition. As soon as you leave Downtown, the streets can become very dangerous for an easy prey. You are ready to fall for any scam. And some of those are organ smugglers.


I would just like to put in at this point that simply because a person might not be able to deal with people doesnt make them a complete dipshit when it comes to social encounters. With a high enough Logic/Intuition anyone is going to know that when some guy walks up to you on the street and offers you "the most amazing deal you have ever seen" there is a good chance you are being scammed. Same with a policlub. Keep your head down, dont pull attention to yourself, and move on quickly. In fact in my mind none of the encounters you suggested are necessarily Charisma based, not if the player can explain it so that its not.

Sure, if I then said "I have my Socially Inept Guy try and bluff his way out of this random street encounter and get away" it would be. For the Policlub, oh no, I have to use one of those other skills I am really good at, say run away to solve it. Some crook tries to scam me? If thats not an intuition roll I dont know what is. Now if the character had picked up the Uncouth quality I could see this being a problem because our Socially Inept Guy might decide that the best way to get out of a random encounter with a Policlub would be to shout random profanities and roar like a lion, and thats not going to go down well.

But then again I guess it depends on your GM.
Traul
QUOTE
Now, what you're describing is essentially Random Encounters. They are pointless little "fuck you player" events that don't have anything to do with the story, and wouldn't be part of any good GM's do to list.

Except they are not Random, but fairly regular. They might not have anything to do with the plot, but they have everything to do with the ambiance. Life is hard in the sprawl. If anybody has any weakness that deep, he should feel it. At least he will know why he wants to buy himself a better life. That suits well for inter-run sessions.

QUOTE
You can also attach yourself to a team member who's not as socially clumsy as you, maybe live with and protect the team's face, and she'll protect you from the socially predatory.

Now that's exactly my point: big brother takes care of you smile.gif

QUOTE
The only thing I'm saying is, don't let people tell you that a combat character must have social skills. It's inconvenient not to, but each character can fill his own niche without agonizing about how he doesn't fill someone else's niche. In fact, it's been suggested on here that charisma 2 and Influence 1 would be valuable to this character would be valuable to this character -- that's a pile of crap. 3 dice is still statistically insufficient for you to succeed at a social test of any real difficulty. You'd still get scammed almost exactly as much. Until you're looking at 5 dice or better, your risk of critical glitch is so high you don't even want to roll. If you don't have a *good* social pool, you might as well not have one at all, because functionally it's about the same either way. What people are suggesting is essentially a fluff social pool, one that's too small to do anything, but big enough to say "well, he's a little bit social."

Exactly: just big enough to be on par with the average guy on the street. We're not comparing this character to the the PC level, but to the grunt level.

All those little encounters have to be considered trivial for normal characters, otherwise there would be too many of them and crooks would be ruling the town. It's not about actually throwing the dice, it's about justifying you don't have to throw them. For that, Charisma 2 OR a skill at 1 is enough.

QUOTE
I would just like to put in at this point that simply because a person might not be able to deal with people doesnt make them a complete dipshit when it comes to social encounters. With a high enough Logic/Intuition anyone is going to know that when some guy walks up to you on the street and offers you "the most amazing deal you have ever seen" there is a good chance you are being scammed.

It could make sense, but the rules don't work like that: you resist Con with Con+Charisma. The idea may be that there is only 1 test for the whole act, and it includes the approach step that shuts down the alarms before the scam really begins.

QUOTE
Same with a policlub. Keep your head down, dont pull attention to yourself, and move on quickly.

This is exactly what Etiquette is for. Better not move too quickly, or they will feel your fear and nothing turns them on like that. Sure, you can always run, but with the right behaviour they might have decided to leave you alone and wait for the next one instead.
Glyph
By RAW, having a Charisma of 1 and no social skills makes a character vulnerable to certain social situations. The character, not being Uncouth, still does get the benefit of positive dice modifiers, though.

From a metagaming standpoint, a certain minimal investment in social ability can ensure that the GM doesn't throw a lot of social hassles your way. While the actual dice pool of, say, a Charisma of 2 and the Influence skill group at 1 might be small, it can sometimes make a big difference in how your character is treated in-game.
Machiavelli
I agree that no social skills AND a low charisma are no joker for the team at all. Therefore i rose charisma and added at least a con-skill. I will update the whole character hopefully within today. One last questions: i can get genetic optimization also during the game? I just overflew the section yesterday evening but to me it sounds like something you get during your birth or at least a very long stay in a tube.^^
Stingray
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 9 2009, 11:53 AM) *
I agree that no social skills AND a low charisma are no joker for the team at all. Therefore i rose charisma and added at least a con-skill. I will update the whole character hopefully within today. One last questions: i can get genetic optimization also during the game? I just overflew the section yesterday evening but to me it sounds like something you get during your birth or at least a very long stay in a tube.^^

Yes,you can get genetic optimization during game, if one is willing to stay 2 months in the tube..
but by the rules of 4A raising then reaction 4 to 5 is expensive.. 25 karma (5x new rating) (if playing those rules)
if you need to save money and essence, one word: Cybersuite. (0.9 essence and yen cost)
your GM might be accept that for Restrictive Equipment(Cybersuite) Quality..but money is money and essence is essence..
Machiavelli
I refuse playing SR4A...no way to have fun with a mage there. Thanks for the info...more swapping of points for me...argh...^^
ElFenrir
Yah, I'm definitely in the boat of giving Charisma and Body a boost. Lower Strength, you don't need a whole lot of that, and 5 augmented should be just fine for a pair of blades. (You can get + DV to blades too, of course.) You could get a away with base 3 strength(to save money and essence), and + DV to blades and be more than fine. And yeah, just ditch Clubs/Unarmed, and go for Blades(Cyber Implants). I would try to weasel out 2 levels of blade styles that give +2 DV to Blades. This way, with Strength 3 you'd actually be doing MORE damage than with 5. Instead of Str/2+3 for the spurs (6P), you'd have 7P damage(3/2+3 is 5, round up, with +2 DV for Blades 7.)
Meatbag
It's called min-maxing for a reason. In this case, social skills are the "min" while combat-related ones are the "max". I generally like to take a little social skill for the above-mentioned reasons, but it's no more crippling than a hacker who can't fight, and there are certainly enough of those.

That said, just because he's not a people-person doesn't mean he's a complete moron. Con is resisted with Con, but Judge Intentions is Intuition+Charisma Vs. Willpower+Charisma. That's a pool of 5, higher than the token social skills people are suggesting. Should raise a few red flags, eh?

There are also knowledge skills to help patch the holes, which are Logic and Intuition-linked. A few points in Street Gangs (Seattle Area) Confidence Tricks and Lone Star Procedures should at least partially help here.

I'm a general schmuck, and I know people that could convince me that pork rinds are secretly dolphin meat, but the ability to see them coming really helps.

As a final point, though? If gangers and racist groups are allowed to go around menacing people, there probably isn't enough of a police presence to stop people from shooting, stabbing or punching them. Given the Professional Ratings of Humanis members and common thugs, it won't take much effort to break their morale.
Meatbag
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 9 2009, 09:35 AM) *
I refuse playing SR4A...no way to have fun with a mage there. Thanks for the info...more swapping of points for me...argh...^^


Not to hijack the thread, but..How does SR4A gimp mages? All my twink-tastic builds seem to work just fine, if not better thanks to lowered Object Resistance.

The ruling about Direct Combat Spells is strictly optional, and even if your GM uses it, a Force 6 Fling spell propelling a grenade is only moderately less lethal than a Force 6 Manaball.
Machiavelli
Lowered object resistance? According to my last infos, they were only risen since standard SR4. And direct combat spells were the last fun I had and I simply don´t wan´t it to be nerfed for no reason. I´m still influenced by the original earthdawn background and magic should become stronger during time passes on, not weaker. I also didn´t experienced that mages are somehow of "uber", that nerfing would have been needed. Maybe we do something wrong in our group...don´t know.
Larme
Object resistance went up, but in the final version, it wasn't enough to matter against a twinktastic mage. All the whiners about the OR were people who said that they didn't want to twink out, like they were somehow morally opposed to creating characters that can actually do things. They wanted the game to stay on "easy mode" so they wouldn't have to work hard on their sheets wink.gif

The reason mages are uber is that mundanes have almost no defense against spells. A direct combat spell against a mundane is pretty much an auto-kill, if the mage is relatively powerful. There are a lot of things to mess with said mage, i.e. vision mods and background counts, but if you take an ordinary situation with none of those factors, a strong mage is a pretty near unstoppable forcce.

If you refuse to play SR4A thanks to the direct combat spell nerf though, you should know that they made it into an optional rule. In fact, they fixed or removed or made optional every single SR4A rule that people objected to. If you don't play it, you're simply playing an older, crappier version of the game with more typos and bugs in it.
Larme
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 9 2009, 02:45 AM) *
By RAW, having a Charisma of 1 and no social skills makes a character vulnerable to certain social situations. The character, not being Uncouth, still does get the benefit of positive dice modifiers, though.

From a metagaming standpoint, a certain minimal investment in social ability can ensure that the GM doesn't throw a lot of social hassles your way. While the actual dice pool of, say, a Charisma of 2 and the Influence skill group at 1 might be small, it can sometimes make a big difference in how your character is treated in-game.


I think that's crap. 2 + 1 = 3. 3-1 = 2. We're talking a 2 dice difference. We are NOT talking average guy on the street here -- the average person, with average charisma and social skills, has double that many dice. We're talking about the difference between shit and crap. The guy with 3 dice for social is just as sucky, system wise, as the guy with 1, only the guy with 1 die starts out stronger.

I would get up and walk away from the table if a GM decided to harass my character with "scams" that were disconnected with the plot. That is a total waste of time. All it does it pick on one person, ignoring the entire rest of the team, the only reason being to bring down one character. That assumes an adversarial GM-Player relationship, where part of the GM's job is to ensure that a character gets fucked as much as possible. I'm fully willing to accept that the 1 die character can get into hot water when doing things related to the plot -- if he's the lookout and the police come up and harass him; if he's trying to convince a contact to help him out of a bad situation; if he's trying to look natural on his way to attack a facility... All of these things are relevant. "Someone comes up to you and rolls Negotiations to take all your money," however, is just not part of any good GM's playbook. It's mean, it's cruel, it's singling out one particular player for torment for the sole reason that he built a legal sheet. A GM should do one of two things: he should a) say "don't make that character, it's too min-maxed for my table," or b) leave it alone. Tormenting a player whose sheet is too twinky for you is the hallmark of a shitty GM, not an ordinary and necessary part of play.
ElFenrir
However, putting realistic encounters in a game(well, 'realistic'), that runners might run into, is just fine. Let's say the GM has an encounter planned at a bar, that involves Some Guy going up to the party to deal with them, and this encounter involves social rolls.

But then at the last second, while standing outside, they decide to do something else while the socially inept guy goes it alone in there. Is the GM bad for letting the encounter stick?

Is a GM bad for sometimes giving players situations that their skills don't quite match up to all the time? Does a good GM only give each character encounters that their skills match perfectly, all the time?

While I am actually a rather lenient GM-a very kind, one, in fact-I do believe in sometimes throwing some loops to the players to get them to think. I don't go out of my way to punish them for character choices-but in life, you will get situations that perhaps your own skills are not quite 'built' for.

Hell, it happened to my character recently in a game, and he ended up with a new skill because of it. They were in a situation with a locked door(classic kind), and no sort of gear for it. My character took his multitool(inadequate, -2 modifier), and defaulted to his agility(9-1=cool.gif, and tossed his dice and hoped for a bunch of hits to pick the lock. He did it-twice, to two doors. He could have kicked it in without a check, but he needed to be quiet.

After he had earned some more Karma, he picked up a Locksmith of 1, since he started fiddling with them a bit, and also picked up a set of proper picks. Great, my character spanned out because of an odd situation.I did not think the GM being too harsh on us for giving us a locked door. nyahnyah.gif (Our team DOES have a couple B&E folks-but they weren't there, so we had to improvise.)

Social situations come up a LOT in games, and a character that completely dumps Charisma and avoids social skills at all has to, IMO, be ready for this. Just like us-our B&E specialists weren't there, we had to improvise. The face isn't always going to be there to save the social inept's butt. At the same time, the face that avoids any and all combat skills whatsoever should know that the threat of being caught with their pants down in combat is very real, and if Greg the Ripper isn't there to protect them, they might be in some trouble.

ANY skill can come up. I mean, there is a difference between a GM who sticks the party(who has no Parachuting or build/repair skills), on a plane, with some broken parachutes, and hopes they make a roll to fix all the parachutes with defaulting, and then make the default parachute roll itself, and then starts to crash the plane. Yeah, I count that heavy-handed and a dick move. But to expect a character to NEVER have to make a social roll in a game, IMO, is asking a bit much.

Keep in mind I do believe that singling the player out for EVERY scam and cheapshot is too heavyhanded and should be avoided-generally speaking, the people are not going to know right off the bat upon looking at them that they are ''Mr. 1 Charisma and No Social Skills.'' At the same time-word might get around-if they get the bad end of a deal more than once, they might get a bit of a rep as the runner that's ''easy to swindle.''
Larme
I pretty much agree with you ElFenrir. I'm saying that social situations that crop up in normal play are fair game. What's not fair game is something like this:

"Ok, I head to the meet."

"On your way, a guy comes up and starts fast talking you. Don't even bother to roll because you can't win, now all your money is gone. Please erase your "nuyen" space on your character sheet and write 0. That's what you get for having 1 charisma and no social skills. If only you'd taken 2 charisma and Influence 1, I wouldn't have fucked you in the ass like that."

That's what some people seem to advocate for, and that's what I'm objecting to.

I should also point out, of course, that even having 1 charisma and no social skills doesn't make you automatically scammable. For instance, social skills are generally resisted by Willpower, not Charisma. Having low charisma means you'll never scam anyone, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you can be scammed more easily. Furthermore, look at the dice modifiers. Even if it is a skill that's resisted with charisma, they can be prohibitive. It's -3 if the target is hostile, and -3 if it's a harmful result to them (-5 if disastrous!). That's between -6 and -8 if an NPC tries to scam a jerkoff, violent, lunkhead PC. That's going to put your average scammer down to almost as few dice as the target. If the target adds edge, then the scammer's got no chance.

I'm not trying to say that it's wrong for someone's character build to bite them in the ass. What I'm calling wrong is interrupting the main story and singling out the one player for punishment, not for purposes of advancing the plot, but just to frustrate and humiliate him. If you're a GM who has a problem with someone's character sheet, call them on it. Don't be passive aggressive about it and just torture them. If you don't want it on your table, don't allow it. But you're betraying your obligation to be fair, impartial, and ensure that everyone has a fun time if you specifically single out a character for punishment simply for building a legal sheet that you don't like but never forbade.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 9 2009, 07:42 PM) *
What's not fair game is something like this:

"Ok, I head to the meet."

"On your way, a guy comes up and starts fast talking you. Don't even bother to roll because you can't win, now all your money is gone. Please erase your "nuyen" space on your character sheet and write 0. That's what you get for having 1 charisma and no social skills. If only you'd taken 2 charisma and Influence 1, I wouldn't have fucked you in the ass like that."

That's what some people seem to advocate for, and that's what I'm objecting to.


Have you ever played in my group? This situation seems familiar. ^^


QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 9 2009, 05:39 PM) *
Object resistance went up, but in the final version, it wasn't enough to matter against a twinktastic mage. All the whiners about the OR were people who said that they didn't want to twink out, like they were somehow morally opposed to creating characters that can actually do things. They wanted the game to stay on "easy mode" so they wouldn't have to work hard on their sheets wink.gif

The reason mages are uber is that mundanes have almost no defense against spells. A direct combat spell against a mundane is pretty much an auto-kill, if the mage is relatively powerful. There are a lot of things to mess with said mage, i.e. vision mods and background counts, but if you take an ordinary situation with none of those factors, a strong mage is a pretty near unstoppable forcce.

If you refuse to play SR4A thanks to the direct combat spell nerf though, you should know that they made it into an optional rule. In fact, they fixed or removed or made optional every single SR4A rule that people objected to. If you don't play it, you're simply playing an older, crappier version of the game with more typos and bugs in it.


I have to use the "crap"-word, although i dislike utterances like that. I don´t want to re-open the "SR4A - good or bad" discusssion once again, but according to the statements of the line developers, their intention for this changes was, that magic has a basical problem to interfere with it´s natural enemy, says: technique. But while magic received a serious weakness, the effectivity of technique agains magic is unharmed? Doesn´t sound balanced or even fair. Most people discuss ways to kill mages and how powerfull they are, but the usual mage is dead before he received his first action phase. Of course, IF he has his phase, he can do some serious damage, but that can be done by a sam with a good weapon, too. And a mage has no semi-auto, burst- or full-auto fire, if the spell is strong, he also has a good chance that his first action is his last while the sam simply changes his clip when it´s empty. Nobody argues about semi-automatic grenade launchers that do 10P damage, with an AP of -1, but a 6P-area spell without armor is "the enemy" (don´t forget the possible bad roll at the drain resistance-test)? Sorry guys, we seem to have different kinds of logic.
Machiavelli
Sorry for the double-post, but the Edit-and-put-it-on-first-place-trick didn´t worked out. Don´t know why. So here it goes:


Race: Dwarf
Size: 1,60 (too big?)

Attributes:
Body: 3[7]
Agility: 5[7]
Strenght: 3[5]
Reaction: 3[7]
Intuition: 4
Charisma: 3
Logic: 3
Willpower: 4

Edge: 2
Essence: 0,35
Magic: 0
Initiative: 11 + 3 IP´s

Skills:
Firearms-Skillgroup: 4
Close-Combat Skillgroup: 4
- specialization dropped, will follow during gameplay
Athletics-Skillgroup: 1 (I don´t want negative pool-modifiers because i don´t have the skill at all...you never know when it´s needed)
- Gymnastics: 4 (+2) any Specialization that fits for dodging (will be worked out with the GM on Saturday)
Perception: 2
Infiltration: 2
Tracking: 2

Cyberware:
Move-by-Wire System 2
Cybereyes rating 3 (full equipped with everything that makes sense - dropped one rating, radar sensor skipped, you were right, it´s headware...follows during play)
Cyberears rating 3 (dropped one rating, equipment fits anyway)
2 Cyberspurs (just for the look) - maybe drop one, have to think about it.

Bioware:
Synthacardium rating 3
Enhanced articulation
Muscle toner & Muscle augmentation rating 2
Bone density rating 4

Edges:
Surge rating 3: (15)
Born rich: (10)
Restricted equipment: (5) (move by wire system)
Ambidexterous: (5)

Flaws:
Cranial bomb (10)
Day Job (5)
SINer (5)
Weak immune system (negates the metatypical ability to resist pathogens and poisons)

Equipment:
I take the low cost equiment that was mentioned above. Money comes up a little less than expected but enough for the first run to get money.

Surge effects:
Arcane arrester (25)
Celerity (5)

Negative:
Astral Hazing (10)
Scent gland (5) - special version. Effects are the same, but i want her to smell like flowers...would look for bypassers as if she had used too much perfume. Therefore lower costs - basically house-rule.

Connections:
8 points left. I think about somebody who would let me live in his condo for a while ^^

Annotations: putting this Char into the run will be no easy job for the GM, but i think the team will appreciate the potential effectivity of the char. Actionsofts for further skills (was thinking about demolitions, heavy weapons, throwing weapons etc.) are not that expensive and the most needed skills are available without the use of skillsofts. This can wait.
Having no lifestyle is a pain in the ass, but it is not the first char. that starts as squatter-level. I will let her arrive in Seattle only with the clothes she wears and her stuff in a backpack. My connection will be a high-loyal fixer or something similar (old lover-relationship) that she can use to rest here for some days (and get a job). Not worked out perfectly, but the direction is clear^^

The low essence should hinder the astral hazing to interfere with possible mages in the team, because i think i can tell them to stay 35cm´s away from me.^^

So, i think i can start playing on sat., if it doesn´t work out, my next char. will follow.^^

I thank you all for your help and if you have additional advice, i have time until saturday for changes.
Stingray
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 10 2009, 03:26 PM) *
Sorry for the double-post, but the Edit-and-put-it-on-first-place-trick didn´t worked out. Don´t know why. So here it goes:


Race: Dwarf
Size: 1,60 (too big?)

Attributes:
Body: 3[7]
Agility: 5[7]
Strenght: 3[5]
Reaction: 3[7]
Intuition: 4
Charisma: 3
Logic: 3
Willpower: 4

Edge: 2
Essence: 0,35
Magic: 0
Initiative: 11 + 3 IP´s

Skills:
Firearms-Skillgroup: 4
Close-Combat Skillgroup: 4
- specialization dropped, will follow during gameplay
Athletics-Skillgroup: 1 (I don´t want negative pool-modifiers because i don´t have the skill at all...you never know when it´s needed)
- Gymnastics: 4 (+2) any Specialization that fits for dodging (will be worked out with the GM on Saturday)
Perception: 2
Infiltration: 2
Tracking: 2

Cyberware:
Move-by-Wire System 2
Cybereyes rating 3 (full equipped with everything that makes sense - dropped one rating, radar sensor skipped, you were right, it´s headware...follows during play)
Cyberears rating 3 (dropped one rating, equipment fits anyway)
2 Cyberspurs (just for the look) - maybe drop one, have to think about it.

Bioware:
Synthacardium rating 3
Enhanced articulation
Muscle toner & Muscle augmentation rating 2
Bone density rating 4

Edges:
Surge rating 3: (15)
Born rich: (10)
Restricted equipment: (5) (move by wire system)
Ambidexterous: (5)

Flaws:
Cranial bomb (10)
Day Job (5)
SINer (5)
Weak immune system (negates the metatypical ability to resist pathogens and poisons)

Equipment:
I take the low cost equiment that was mentioned above. Money comes up a little less than expected but enough for the first run to get money.

Surge effects:
Arcane arrester (25)
Celerity (5)

Negative:
Astral Hazing (10)
Scent gland (5) - special version. Effects are the same, but i want her to smell like flowers...would look for bypassers as if she had used too much perfume. Therefore lower costs - basically house-rule.

Connections:
8 points left. I think about somebody who would let me live in his condo for a while ^^

Annotations: putting this Char into the run will be no easy job for the GM, but i think the team will appreciate the potential effectivity of the char. Actionsofts for further skills (was thinking about demolitions, heavy weapons, throwing weapons etc.) are not that expensive and the most needed skills are available without the use of skillsofts. This can wait.
Having no lifestyle is a pain in the ass, but it is not the first char. that starts as squatter-level. I will let her arrive in Seattle only with the clothes she wears and her stuff in a backpack. My connection will be a high-loyal fixer or something similar (old lover-relationship) that she can use to rest here for some days (and get a job). Not worked out perfectly, but the direction is clear^^

The low essence should hinder the astral hazing to interfere with possible mages in the team, because i think i can tell them to stay 35cm´s away from me.^^

So, i think i can start playing on sat., if it doesn´t work out, my next char. will follow.^^

I thank you all for your help and if you have additional advice, i have time until saturday for changes.

Average Dwarf is 120 cm tall so 160cm is giant dwarf, so 120-130 is ok considering body modifications...
Machiavelli
I have the human-looking quality. Due to the fact that it lowers the metatypical-characteristics, it should negate the height-difference a bit. According to my informations, dwarfs don´t have any other really obvious characteristics than an shorter arms- and legs. And 5 points just for even more unflashy pointed ears would be to much.^^
Cthulhudreams
If you're going human looking, afaik, arn't you better off as an ork? You lose the +2 bod against toxins that I've never cared about ever, and you get 5 extra BP (enough to buy some bling) and an extra point of body?
Larme
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 10 2009, 01:30 AM) *
...but the usual mage is dead before he received his first action phase. Of course, IF he has his phase, he can do some serious damage, but that can be done by a sam with a good weapon, too. And a mage has no semi-auto, burst- or full-auto fire, if the spell is strong, he also has a good chance that his first action is his last while the sam simply changes his clip when it�s empty. Nobody argues about semi-automatic grenade launchers that do 10P damage, with an AP of -1, but a 6P-area spell without armor is "the enemy" (don�t forget the possible bad roll at the drain resistance-test)? Sorry guys, we seem to have different kinds of logic.


This shows that your assumptions about mages are based on, no offense, ignorance of how to make a good mage build. You're right, if you've got a build that sucks so much that he gets geeked before he acts, then he didn't need a nerf. There are limitless ways to avoid this though -- hide in a safe place and sent spirits from the astral, sustain Improved Reflexes and Combat Sense, possess yourself with a strong spirit, take some cyberware... Mages when played properly do not suck, and the nerf is not unfair to them, because of their ability to dominate. Now, the nerfs fall on crappy mages just as much, making them crappier. But the difference between crappy and crappier is essentially academic. If your mage sucks, he sucks. The fact is, the nerfs in the final SR4A were very minor, practically no barrier at all to a well constructed mage build, so it's hard to support any part of your statement that the slight increase in OR was unfair.
Larme
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 10 2009, 07:26 AM) *
Skills:
Firearms-Skillgroup: 4
Close-Combat Skillgroup: 4
- specialization dropped, will follow during gameplay
Athletics-Skillgroup: 1 (I don´t want negative pool-modifiers because i don´t have the skill at all...you never know when it´s needed)
- Gymnastics: 4 (+2) any Specialization that fits for dodging (will be worked out with the GM on Saturday)
Perception: 2
Infiltration: 2
Tracking: 2


You still haven't fixed these skill groups, they're a millstone around your neck weighing you down. You are flushing points down the toilet by learning firearms and close combat, it's more skills than you need for more point than you can afford.

QUOTE
Cyberware:
Move-by-Wire System 2
Cybereyes rating 3 (full equipped with everything that makes sense - dropped one rating, radar sensor skipped, you were right, it´s headware...follows during play)
Cyberears rating 3 (dropped one rating, equipment fits anyway)
2 Cyberspurs (just for the look) - maybe drop one, have to think about it.


Two spurs is good if you learn a martial art and Two Weapon Style. Otherwise it's a waste.

QUOTE
Surge effects:
Arcane arrester (25)
Celerity (5)

Negative:
Astral Hazing (10)
Scent gland (5) - special version. Effects are the same, but i want her to smell like flowers...would look for bypassers as if she had used too much perfume. Therefore lower costs - basically house-rule.


Smelling good is a flaw worth points? If you say so...

QUOTE
Annotations: putting this Char into the run will be no easy job for the GM, but i think the team will appreciate the potential effectivity of the char. Actionsofts for further skills (was thinking about demolitions, heavy weapons, throwing weapons etc.) are not that expensive and the most needed skills are available without the use of skillsofts. This can wait.


They're quite expensive under SR4A, rating x 10000 in cost.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 10 2009, 04:44 PM) *
You still haven't fixed these skill groups, they're a millstone around your neck weighing you down. You are flushing points down the toilet by learning firearms and close combat, it's more skills than you need for more point than you can afford.


No weapon skill is useless. Ich can grab nearly everything that fires, cuts etc. and can fight effectively with it. Some skills aren´t used that often, right, but if you need them most, you don´t have them. Can´t happen to my char. If i would purchase them afterwards, i could never get them as cheap as now. Skill groups rock!!!

QUOTE
Two spurs is good if you learn a martial art and Two Weapon Style. Otherwise it's a waste.


We don´t use the martial arts up to now. Like I said, it´s basically for the look. If you go, go in Style. And would Wolverine look good with claws just on one hand? No, he wouldn´t. You see?...

QUOTE
Smelling good is a flaw worth points? If you say so...


Of course it is, if it is too extreme. I already mentioned the massive amount of smell that will be produced by her. I think wherever you are from, you have old grannies around you, that use too much perfume. Have a sniff and come back to your statement


QUOTE
They're quite expensive under SR4A, rating x 10000 in cost.


We don´t play SR4A up to now. They didn´t even have the book in the printed version. I also mentioned several times that I refuse to play SR4A...so up to SR4 they are incredibly cheap (and already included in my cyber)
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 10 2009, 03:26 PM) *
If you're going human looking, afaik, arn't you better off as an ork? You lose the +2 bod against toxins that I've never cared about ever, and you get 5 extra BP (enough to buy some bling) and an extra point of body?

Yeah, but i also lose the point in willpower, will have more trouble when somebody is noticing that i´m actually NOT an norm and orks stink.^^
Larme
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 10 2009, 01:02 PM) *
No weapon skill is useless. Ich can grab nearly everything that fires, cuts etc. and can fight effectively with it. Some skills aren´t used that often, right, but if you need them most, you don´t have them. Can´t happen to my char. If i would purchase them afterwards, i could never get them as cheap as now. Skill groups rock!!!


I have never once in all my years of Shadowrun been forced to "grab" a random weapon. And even if you were, it doesn't matter worth a damn for your character, since you've got blades in your arms that can't be taken away. No, your skill groups are a huge waste of BP, and it's a shame that you can't understand that.

QUOTE
We don´t play SR4A up to now. They didn´t even have the book in the printed version. I also mentioned several times that I refuse to play SR4A...so up to SR4 they are incredibly cheap (and already included in my cyber)


If you "refuse" to play SR4A, you should take a look at the errata. I bet you will like almost all of them. Your objections are 98% likely to be based on false rumor and inaccurate hearsay, and not reality. That's what I've found with every person who shares your view so far.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 10 2009, 06:09 PM) *
I have never once in all my years of Shadowrun been forced to "grab" a random weapon. And even if you were, it doesn't matter worth a damn for your character, since you've got blades in your arms that can't be taken away. No, your skill groups are a huge waste of BP, and it's a shame that you can't understand that.



If you "refuse" to play SR4A, you should take a look at the errata. I bet you will like almost all of them. Your objections are 98% likely to be based on false rumor and inaccurate hearsay, and not reality. That's what I've found with every person who shares your view so far.


I don´t know which settings you play, but i have experienced more than on encounter, where our weapons blew up, got damaged or whatever. So you had to take what you could get. If i get only the automatics-skill and get access only to a sniper-rifle or a shotgun, i will look like a jackass. I would never specialize on one of this skills from the group, because they are all important. I have never heard such a lame argument, sorry. Sure, i don´t need the close combat group at all if i have spurs, but sometimes slicing your opponent is no option, sometimes you need to grab a billard-queue to hit the shit out of somebody or use a stun-club. Doesn´t work with "bladed-weapons - cyberspur". Maybe making french-fries out of your enemies is common in your group, but not in ours.

I have the SR4A book as a PDF and i also read the erratas. But the object resistance is still higher and i haven´t read a section that doubles a mages dice or whatever. So it is worser than before and therefore not a good thing. Sure there are a lot of things that got better, but none of them was for the mages. I can only remember a stupid optional rule for direct combat spells, the rise of the OR-table, the gimping of the movement power etc. If you see an improvement in one of this things, than you have a very special kind of logic.^^ If i would play a Ki-Ad, i would agree with you, but i´m playing a mage, so i don´t agree. It´s so easy sometimes.
Larme
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 10 2009, 01:56 PM) *
I don´t know which settings you play, but i have experienced more than on encounter, where our weapons blew up, got damaged or whatever. So you had to take what you could get. If i get only the automatics-skill and get access only to a sniper-rifle or a shotgun, i will look like a jackass. I would never specialize on one of this skills from the group, because they are all important. I have never heard such a lame argument, sorry. Sure, i don´t need the close combat group at all if i have spurs, but sometimes slicing your opponent is no option, sometimes you need to grab a billard-queue to hit the shit out of somebody or use a stun-club. Doesn´t work with "bladed-weapons - cyberspur". Maybe making french-fries out of your enemies is common in your group, but not in ours.


So learn Unarmed. Buy a shock glove. Don't take cyberspurs. You admit that you're wasting points, because you have spurs that you often won't be able to use. I really don't give a damn that you're wasting points, wasting points is fine as long as you know that you're doing it, just don't tell me that you're going to be able to use clubs AND blades AND unarmed AND longarms AND pitols AND automatics, all with enough frequency to be worth it. You're probably a lost cause as you're not resisting logical arguments with logically valid counters. The best I can hope for is that others will read this and get a good primer on how NOT to build an optimized character.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 11 2009, 03:05 AM) *
Yeah, but i also lose the point in willpower, will have more trouble when somebody is noticing that i´m actually NOT an norm and orks stink.^^


Sure, but you save 15 BP, 10 of which you spend on the point of willpower. If I do the maths correctly.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 10 2009, 09:59 PM) *
So learn Unarmed. Buy a shock glove. Don't take cyberspurs. You admit that you're wasting points, because you have spurs that you often won't be able to use. I really don't give a damn that you're wasting points, wasting points is fine as long as you know that you're doing it, just don't tell me that you're going to be able to use clubs AND blades AND unarmed AND longarms AND pitols AND automatics, all with enough frequency to be worth it. You're probably a lost cause as you're not resisting logical arguments with logically valid counters. The best I can hope for is that others will read this and get a good primer on how NOT to build an optimized character.

You are a funny guy. You are talking about logical arguments but you oversee that your personal opinion doesn´t embrace "logic". If you would have read my posts properly, you would have seen that i have admitted, that i am not going to use most of the skills very often. I´m aware of this. But i am going to play some sort of jack-of-all-trades in the field of killing. So combat skills are my everyday work. I really don´t see why they should be useless. A combat oriented character that can only shoot with automatics....THAT´s what i call stupid. If you can deal with such an character...fine. But you should never come in a situation without an automag.

I anyway have no other skills i would say they are worth to purchase at character creation, so i keep them for later and put my BP´s in really serious stuff. We checked out that social skills are not very important for me, i have the most important ones available from the start and through the lot of points i spent for them, i don´t have to raise them a long time. And even if i want to, i don´t have to spent a lot of karma because they are nearly maxed. For me, thats a quite good starting point.

You are right that i´m a twinker, but somewhere is a frontier, where creating a character that fits your concept is more important than checking out how often a skill comes in use or not. I know that i´m prepared for every fight with this char, you can´t say the same. So whose char is better?

QUOTE
Sure, but you save 15 BP, 10 of which you spend on the point of willpower. If I do the maths correctly.


Right, i would save 5 points, but i simply don´t like orcs. Thats it. Low lifespan (not vital in the game, but for my inner peace), ugly, dumb....wouldn´t be able to be comfortable with this. And like i said: there is a chance that NPC´s notice that you are not human, and orcs gain a lot more of cultural bias than dwarfs. Not worth the 5 points.
Larme
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 11 2009, 01:47 AM) *
You are a funny guy. You are talking about logical arguments but you oversee that your personal opinion doesn´t embrace "logic". If you would have read my posts properly, you would have seen that i have admitted, that i am not going to use most of the skills very often. I´m aware of this. But i am going to play some sort of jack-of-all-trades in the field of killing. So combat skills are my everyday work. I really don´t see why they should be useless. A combat oriented character that can only shoot with automatics....THAT´s what i call stupid. If you can deal with such an character...fine. But you should never come in a situation without an automag.


All I can say is, I hope you have a low powered campaign and a forgiving GM. I hope others, who do care about optimization, take a good lesson away from this: versatility is good, but too much is a bad thing. Too much versatility and you are piling on redundant skills which hurt you more than help you. But if you *ever* manage to hit the grand slam and use every one of the 6 combat skills you're buying, I'd love to hear about it. I predict, however, that your character will die or the campaign will end before you manage that. If that's fine with you, then it's fine with you. I just like to stab the point home -- if you wanna run with the big boys, don't over-generalize. It costs you dearly. You can ignore all my experience, you can spit in my face and call me stupid for giving friendly advice. Whatever. At this point, it's not for your benefit. I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm just doing damage control. False build ideas, like "knowing every combat skill is a useful thing," or "you must have at least 3 social dice," just get my dander up. That's why I don't stay silent when people put them forth, especially not after being so thoroughly discredited. You yourself admit that optimization doesn't matter, so why keep insisting that you've got a good reason for what you're doing? You don't have one, and that's fine, so you can quit trying to justify it. It's a bad idea, but it's your character, not mine. Just don't go telling noobs to do as you do.
Machiavelli
Muahahaha....ok. I thought my last post would have ended the topic, but i was wrong.^^

Ok...listen: i play a warrior character and i have all the combat skills. And YOU tell me that i waste points? What should i save them for? I spent all possible points on the attributes, we play SR4 not SR4A so raising an attribute is cheaper for me than a skill group...therefore i rather raise the group at creation that additional attributes. Edge is always an option but therefore see the above sentence. I think i survive the first 2 or 3 runs and 1 point in edge won´t be "THE" thing i need to do so.

So what skills am i missing that make the day of an combat oriented character impossible? Maybe i should add "artisan - drawing"? Or cooking? Please don´t forget the skillwires and the info in the upper paragraph. We play SR4...they are cheap. One or two runs and I can afford one. And i will still have money left for additional ID´s, ammo...whatever. I see no missing skills. Not ones, i can´t take later during game. My Cyber boosts my low skills in a way, that i can compete easily with every other char. But hey: you lament around, so tell me what you think. Like I said, I´m open for things i missed. That´s why i opened this topic. Sometimes you are so focused on your idea, that you oversee something. Enlighten me...please.
Larme
For one thing, Heavy Weapons. That's the best combat skill shy of automatics, because it includes airburst grenade launchers. For another thing, all your other skills could be higher instead of being at 2's and 4's. Some of your attributes could be better. You could have a driving skill, and a vehicle. That's just a few ideas. Those points you are spending on redundant skills could make you more powerful. Right now, they do not, they just make you a little bit better in case the unthinkable happens and you both lose all of your weapons and ALSO can't cut people up with cyberspurs, you just HAVE to shock them with a shock club. I'll just come out and say it, that's never going to happen. If you care about your build's power you will rue your wasted points at some point. It's not something you necessarily care about, of course. That's not a wrong way to play. It's just not how I play, and it's not what I give advice about.
Machiavelli
Ok, now heres something i can work with. Like I said i boost my perception an inflitration skill with cyber. I think 9 dices on both are enough for the beginning. No other char. in our group has more.

Driving skill is not needed, because I

a) have no vehicle and
b) can use the approbriate attribute (reaction) 6 dices should be enough to get from point A to point B.

For all the other things, we have a rigger. And if i have to run the escape-car, the shit already hit the fan.^^

Heavy weapons are ever more seldom on the street than my choices but even without it, I have 8 dices for grenade launchers. Basically i wanted to save points and buy it with skillsofts (like throwing weapons). Important, sure. But not THAT important.

I will update you as soon as i have used all skills.^^
Larme
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 11 2009, 05:47 AM) *
Ok, now heres something i can work with. Like I said i boost my perception an inflitration skill with cyber. I think 9 dices on both are enough for the beginning. No other char. in our group has more.


How much have you played SR4? 9 dice sucks. It *really* sucks. On average, it's only 3 hits, but with the unpredictability of 5+ hits, you'll find yourself getting 0-1 as often as 3+. And pile on a very few modifiers, and you lose. Just a -4 is all it takes to put you into critical glitch territory. 9 dice is enough to do an easy task with no negative mods. If you think 9 dice is enough in geneal, either you're not that experienced with SR4, or your GM sets the power level very low. For an important skill like perception or infiltration, there's pretty much no such thing as enough, more is always better until you max out, because maxing out is inefficient. But until just before you max out, more is better, and enough is not a real thing.
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