Hacking and Logic? Options

[Jaid]

Or, you just buy the program and get free patches for life. Most players are going to be more willing to spend a few extra nuyen up front, then worry about the bookkeeping and nickel and diming every couple months to keep the rating up. Hell, most GMs don't want to deal with that anyways.

and then anyone who cares enough to come looking for you finds you, and there goes that identity and the licenses to use the software(and therefore your free updates) that goes with it just as soon as you commit any crime while using the software. and any other properties that are attached to that SIN (licenses, bank accounts, etc).

being easily traceable is not a good idea as a shadowrunner. just get a cracked copy, join a cracking ring, and add the cost to your lifestyle.

[deek]

and then anyone who cares enough to come looking for you finds you, and there goes that identity and the licenses to use the software(and therefore your free updates) that goes with it just as soon as you commit any crime while using the software. and any other properties that are attached to that SIN (licenses, bank accounts, etc).

being easily traceable is not a good idea as a shadowrunner. just get a cracked copy, join a cracking ring, and add the cost to your lifestyle.

I guess I never viewed registered software as being THAT easily traceable. If the hacker is using a low-level fake SIN, spoofing his Access ID prior to the run and cleaning up the Access Logs, I'm not so convinced that he'd be easily found.

But then again, on my GM list of things to track a PC, that ranks pretty low. But I suppose if they have covered all other trails and erased all other ways to be traced, if they are using registered programs I have one other way to get them...

[Draco18s]

"Yes, we believe that this photo was Photoshopped by one of your users. Yes, we'd like to compare this list of access IDs to your list of registered users. Uh huh. Uh huh. That's right sir. We think he committed a crime and would like to know who he is."

[shuya]

I guess I never viewed registered software as being THAT easily traceable. If the hacker is using a low-level fake SIN, spoofing his Access ID prior to the run and cleaning up the Access Logs, I'm not so convinced that he'd be easily found.

But then again, on my GM list of things to track a PC, that ranks pretty low. But I suppose if they have covered all other trails and erased all other ways to be traced, if they are using registered programs I have one other way to get them...

did you know that you can find out an awful lot of information about someone TODAY just by analyzing the meta-information in a picture taken by a digital camera, including but not limited to time and date of the picture, camera model, physical location the picture was taken (for some GPS-equipped cameras), etc... furthermore, every digital camera has a "fingerprint" of sorts, tiny imperfections in the image creation process that can be analyzed in a photo and linked to that specific camera, much like a gun leaves its personal mark on every bullet fired through it.

imagine how bad it'll be in 2070. any registered program will likely leave a trace in every file it edits or creates that will tell anyone who can access it everything about you, sadly. Runners Companion has a really good section on just how much personal information you're giving away anytime you do pretty much anything. it's not about access ID or creating fake identities or having your connections and actions logged and recorded by someone else, it is about what YOU are telling people, all the time. you can obscure and edit and mislead and erase tags all day long, but you'll NEVER get them all. never understimate the value of information; it is in the best interests of any software provider to have their programs create as much information as possible--they are, in essence, printing their own currency by doing so.

[Cthulhudreams]

Why would ares want to tell Horizon about the access ID of someone who purchased black hammer off Ares and used it on a horizon employee?

Clue, they wouldn't. Hopefully they'll use it on another horizon employee, or failing that someone from someone else Ares wants to go to hell. Ares is actually paying people to black hammer horizon employees, so people do it for free is just gravy.

It should be almost impossible to find someone to tell you anything about anyone in SR.

[Jaid]

the rules state that people get a +2 dice pool bonus per program that you have registered when they want to track you down. so if you have system, firewall, edit, scan, and browse, that's +10 to their dicepool to find you.

why does it work that way? i don't know. i'm not living in the sixth world, i just roleplay as someone who does. as far as why would horizon do that? well, maybe because the corporate court requires them to pretend to get along. presumably if they had to do more than just the bare minimum forced upon them by the corporate court, it would be even easier. i don't know the full reason why, but i do know that's how it works.

regardless, we know that it is very easy to find someone who makes extensive use of registered programs. if you don't want to deal with that, then buy a cracked version and pay for the updates. pretty everyone else has stuff they need to replace (special ammo, chemicals, grenades, drones, medkit supplies, binding materials, bribes, and so on) in addition to stuff they want to upgrade. what makes you so special you can't be bothered to spend some cred here and there to keep up with the SOTA in a field where the SOTA moves so fast? if you don't want to deal with it, then don't be a hacker. (and if you absolutely must be a matrix specialist but can't stand the thought of having actual upkeep costs for your equipment just like everyone else, well then be a technomancer).

[Draco18s]

Updating 1 rating 6 program is worth more, far more, than rounds of ammo for the rest of the team.

How much is a rating 6 hacking program? 600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month, or the equivalent cost of 300 rounds of standard ammunition.

[shuya]

Updating 1 rating 6 program is worth more, far more, than rounds of ammo for the rest of the team.

How much is a rating 6 hacking program? 600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month, or the equivalent cost of 300 rounds of standard ammunition.

you clearly are not carrying/firing enough automatic weapons ^_^ 300 rounds can be gone like that (i'd snap my fingers, but you wouldn't be able to hear it over the internet)

any hacker running around with straight-R6 gear should be making more than enough money to find a way to keep his kit SOTA.

and as a brief aside, i think the hacking and logic rules stuff isn't really a problem as much as it is dice-pool min maxing on the part of players. how many tech-hackers (differentiating from technomancers, who actually have character) have you seen people play who DIDN'T start with the "Rating 5 Hack-Pack™!!!11one." if all the players are making the same character (and i guarantee at least one person reading this thread knows by heart the cost of a commlink and every program at rating 5), of course they're gonna all look like skiddies.

[Daishi]

Updating 1 rating 6 program is worth more, far more, than rounds of ammo for the rest of the team.

How much is a rating 6 hacking program? 600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a month, or the equivalent cost of 300 rounds of standard ammunition.

It's (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100 per month is it not? Ten percent of the difference between the degraded rating and the full rating. Rating 6 is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 6,000 while Rating 5 (degraded) is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5,000. Difference is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 1,000; ten percent gets you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100. Running a full suite of just about everything at Rating 6 will cost you under 2k per month to keep sharp. That's not too bad. A suprathyroid-equipped goon living the high life will run more than that for his food bill (as is the case with my current back-up character.)

[deek]

Okay, I'll concede that its not as expensive or overly bookkeeping to keep your programs SOTA. I've learned something new, so that's a good thing.

But, if the only game mechanic that is affected by registered programs is +2 to track per program, I'm still not seeing the big deal with pay once and hack with a registered program. The amount of time it takes to track a good hacker, is not going to net all that much. And once you change your Access ID or turn your comm off, the spider tracking you is going to bump into a dead end and what, get the last location you were hacking from?

I think the fluff is a lot more scary than what is going to actually happen at the table...

[Draco18s]

It's (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100 per month is it not? Ten percent of the difference between the degraded rating and the full rating. Rating 6 is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 6,000 while Rating 5 (degraded) is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5,000. Difference is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 1,000; ten percent gets you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100. Running a full suite of just about everything at Rating 6 will cost you under 2k per month to keep sharp. That's not too bad. A suprathyroid-equipped goon living the high life will run more than that for his food bill (as is the case with my current back-up character.)

I thought it was 10% of the cost of the program not the cost of the difference.

[Wiseman]

Why would ares want to tell Horizon about the access ID of someone who purchased black hammer off Ares and used it on a horizon employee?

Plausible deniability?

Ares can appear to be cracking down on these rogue hackers using these programs to appease the CC, and still be paying others to use the same programs to continue to do the same.

PR departments thrive of scapegoats... How many other crimes that Horizon suspected Ares of funding can they pin on one maverick hacker with a clear disregard for established standards.

[Kingboy]

the rules state that people get a +2 dice pool bonus per program that you have registered when they want to track you down. so if you have system, firewall, edit, scan, and browse, that's +10 to their dicepool to find you.

No, the rules state:

Registration
Program Types: Common, Hacking, Autosoft, Simsense
*fluff bit snipped*
In game terms, decrease the threshold of any attempts to track a user who has used a registered program by 1 for each registered program used. Likewise, increase the threshold of any attempt to Edit the access log (p. 65) or otherwise eliminate traces of the data-trail by 1 for every registered program used while hacking a node.

So,

1. it is a threshold reduction for the tracking party, not a dice pool bonus,
2. the value of the reduction is 1, not 2, and
3. System and Firewall are NOT programs, they are Software Attributes of Matrix enabled nodes. These are not equivalent terms.

Using the example you cited, a spider tracking a runner using those programs would be making a Trace User action with a threshold of (10-3=7,Complex Action) using his normal dicepool of Computer+Track, with no dice pool bonus (at least none fom the fact that Registered programs were used).

[Jaid]

hmmm... must be mixing my rules somewhere.

anyways, this is even worse; an attempt to hide the datatrail has the threshold increased by 1, and spoofing your AID (or altering it with hardware) is not an extended test. so in the above (and looking at it, oddly enough registration cannot be applied to system and firewall, technically, so apparently you're right; my personal opinion is that's an oversight, but whatever). so, now instead of a threshold 2 test, in the above scenario you're talking about a threshold 5 test. if you should be unfortunate enough to actually have a full suite of programs that are registered, you're looking at a threshold of over 20 on a non-extended test. or, in other words, you're pretty much screwed.

and an attempt to change your access ID is indeed an attempt to 'eleminate traces of the data trail':

The standard technique to reduce your datatrail is to spoof your commlink’s access ID.

(emphasis added)

so yeah, using registered programs is pretty much a death sentence.

oh, and while bullets are not terribly expensive for standard ammo, i expect many groups find use for capsule rounds with appropriate drugs, stick-n-shock, APDS, ex-ex, and various grenades, chemicals, and such. such investments can *really* pay off in a big way. certainly, you can shadowrun without them, but if your hacker absolutely *must* have the best in hacking gear, i can only assume that the rest of your team should likewise not be skimping on their gear. 600 nuyen could very well be only 6 (full auto) bursts or 3 IPs of suppressive fire, depending on the ammo type.

[Kingboy]

anyways, this is even worse;

Not really. You simply need to read closer. I have edited my earlier post to highlight some key phrases.

an attempt to hide the datatrail has the threshold increased by 1, and spoofing your AID (or altering it with hardware) is not an extended test.

You forgot to continue down to the part where spoofing the ID takes several minutes, far to long to be an effective tactic while in mid run.

Altering your Access ID is something done before you begin a run, and requires no Programs to complete. It is either a Hacking+Software or Hardware+Logic test. It takes place entirely within the confines of your own node, so there is no datatrail to worry about creating, at least until you start connecting to other systems. Spoofing your ID is what you do to distance yourself from your last seven Stuffer Shack purchases while on a run, and what you do to clean up after you've finished a run and don't want to be linked to the hacks you just pulled off, not a method for eluding an active trace (not an effective method at least).

so in the above (and looking at it, oddly enough registration cannot be applied to system and firewall, technically, so apparently you're right; my personal opinion is that's an oversight, but whatever).

While that may be your opinion, there is nothing to back that up. Characters have Attributes, these are defined as Physical, Mental and Special Attributes. Commlinks/Nodes/Nexi have Attributes. These are defined as Hardware (analagous to Physical) and Software (analagous to Mental) Attributes. One could even say that things like Persona Limits are analagous to Special Attributes.

Software Attributes for nodes are System and Firewall. Software is not the same as Programs.

so, now instead of a threshold 2 test, in the above scenario you're talking about a threshold 5 test. if you should be unfortunate enough to actually have a full suite of programs that are registered, you're looking at a threshold of over 20 on a non-extended test. or, in other words, you're pretty much screwed.

Actually no, you have a threshold of 2, because you are smart and did it before the run, and needed no Programs to complete the task, therefore bypassing any use of Registration. Of course if you are really smart, you've instead done one hardware test in the past and installed a Spoof Chip, at which point you can change the ID at the push of a button (which drops all subscriptions and likely still takes "minutes" to register properly, but is so simple a toddler could do it).

And really, "threshold of 20"? At best, barring a milspec commlink of some rarity, the average hacker could only conceivably be running 11 programs at once (or is only likely to be, not wanting to suffer Response degradation), assuming 6 of them are Ergonomic.

Also, only the programs you have actively running will be generating a datatrail and therefore contributing to the negative effects of Registration. If you've got a Registered copy of Miracle Shooter or even Decrypt sitting in your commlink's memory but it is not being used, it's not going to add penalties.

One thing the user of registered programs does have to be cautious of is constantly swapping programs. If it's been used to hack the node in question, it will add penalties even if you unload it.

and an attempt to change your access ID is indeed an attempt to 'eleminate traces of the data trail':

The standard technique to reduce your datatrail is to spoof your commlink’s access ID.

(emphasis added)

Emphasis added as well.

Changing your Access ID is indeed an attempt (more precisely a method) to reduce the datatrail, but it is not the only method by which such attempts may be made. It is a generally useful method for doing things like avoiding spam, stopping Stuffer Shack from building a profile on you as one of their biggest SoyKaf drinkers at a given location, and generaly sticking to the shadows. For hackers it is very useful in assuring that the job they are currently doing on a given node isn't linked back to the job they did on some other node last week. It is not, due to the time it takes--once again, minutes are involved here, or 20-30 Combat Rounds, plenty of time for a spider to Trace the old AID--an effective method for slipping a trace.

The basic methods for reducing the datatrail while hacking involve Editing the Access Log (specifically mentioned in the rule above, now higlighted in red) and taking Redirect Trace actions while actively being tracked. Both of these are indeed made more difficult when using Registered programs, but can be dealt with to some degree by using only those programs that are necessary. You can also simply delete the access log if you're not worried about security knowing that someone was here (although they won't know who), all that takes is appropriate level account access. Beating the threshold for the Redirect Trace will still add to the threshold of the Trace User action for the tracking spider, it's just harder to do.

so yeah, using registered programs is pretty much a death sentence.

Is it a good idea for dedicated Hackers to use non-Registered programs? Certianly. They are not nearly the "death sentence" you seem to think they are though.

[Draco18s]

oh, and while bullets are not terribly expensive for standard ammo, i expect many groups find use for capsule rounds with appropriate drugs, stick-n-shock, APDS, ex-ex, and various grenades, chemicals, and such. such investments can *really* pay off in a big way. certainly, you can shadowrun without them, but if your hacker absolutely *must* have the best in hacking gear, i can only assume that the rest of your team should likewise not be skimping on their gear. 600 nuyen could very well be only 6 (full auto) bursts or 3 IPs of suppressive fire, depending on the ammo type.

Point taken, but the last hacker/rigger I played ended up with a 40,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) debt to the face just repairing drones. God forbid I put program upkeep on top of that.

[Jaid]

kingboy: it doesn't say it gives a penalty to attempts to reduce your datatrail only when you're pressed for time. it doesn't say it only applies some of the time. therefore, it applies any time you attempt to reduce your datatrail, be that before, after, or during the hack. now, given you haven't likely used your programs before the hack, you're good to go (though it will still not block the datatrail from your previous hack).

but if it just says it makes it harder to cover up your datatrail, then it just makes it harder to cover up your datatrail. it doesn't make it harder only when you choose to apply it, it makes it harder all the time. if they only wanted it to be harder to cover up your datatrail some of the time, then they would have said that it makes it harder to cover up the datatrail some of the time. and really, it makes sense; they don't have just *your* AID to work from, they have a signature of each program they used. you can change your AID, but it doesn't block their attempt to track you down, because they've got 20 other AIDs (or whatever signature those registered programs leave) that points to your new AID (or 5, or 10, or whatever... switching programs is not all that improbable. if they put a simple databomb on an encrypted file, you're using browse, analyse, decrypt, defuse, edit, and probably stealth. that's for a single action. if you should also happen to get detected and need to boot up your combat stuff? armor, (and/or) biofeedback filter, and attack get added in. if you have to find the right network in the first place? scan, sniffer. need to get into the node to begin with? we can add exploit to your list. it doesn't take much to start building up a large list of programs that you've had to use to perform relatively simple hacks. and functionally, there isn't much difference between +10 threshold and +20... you aren't likely to pull off either in any case, so it's a bit irrelevant)

and i still think it's an oversight that system and firewall cannot have registration applied. essentially, you are saying that it is deliberate that you can make as many copies of system and firewall as you feel like, and nobody is going to object to you copying their OS over and over and over. tell you what, you go try and convince your workplace that using pirated copies of windows is not going to be a problem, and let's see where that gets you, 'kay? i agree that the rules currently seem to state that it doesn't work that way, however. i just don't think it was intended.

[Cthulhudreams]

Plausible deniability?

Ares can appear to be cracking down on these rogue hackers using these programs to appease the CC, and still be paying others to use the same programs to continue to do the same.

PR departments thrive of scapegoats... How many other crimes that Horizon suspected Ares of funding can they pin on one maverick hacker with a clear disregard for established standards.

Horizon knows Ares is running..everyone knows that Ares is running covert operations against Horizon with lethal force. And when I say everyone, I mean everyone - it is in encyclopedias, etc, etc. We have books about the cold war, in 2070, there is the shadow war.

There are actually TV shows about how Ares hires people to murder Horizon employees and blow up their shit.

Why the hell does Ares need deny something it actually makes a TV show about doing. If you're going to deny something, producing a documentary about how you do it is probably pretty stupid. Don't you think of Ares wanted deniability they wouldn't make TV shows about hiring shadowrunners and broadcast it on global TV networks? That may be construed as tipping your hand slightly. But it gets better - if the TV show isn't good enough, you can buy World of Blowing Up Horizons Shit and Murdering their Dudes, and for an annual subscription fee play a MMORPG about being hired by corporations to set other corporations and their gear on fire.

And it's not like they are any legal repercussions. What the hell is Horizon going to do about it? Hire knight errant to go arrest some.. actually that isn't going to work like at all what with the extra territoriality thing and all. It would be like arresting Regan for smuggling arms to Afgan insurgents to blow up russians with. Actually it wouldn't be like, it's exactly the same. The US got busted over the bay of pigs - but for Ares, that isn't even a crime. It's a whoops, thats a crap performance because you failed to top the regime for them, rather than whoops I got busted doing something illegal.

The situation is directly comparable to the cold war. Everyone frikken knew that the russians were running agents in the west and visa versa. You tried to stop that stuff, but you couldn't arrest Regan because you found some spies.

[Draco18s]

and i still think it's an oversight that system and firewall cannot have registration applied. essentially, you are saying that it is deliberate that you can make as many copies of system and firewall as you feel like, and nobody is going to object to you copying their OS over and over and over. tell you what, you go try and convince your workplace that using pirated copies of windows is not going to be a problem, and let's see where that gets you, 'kay? i agree that the rules currently seem to state that it doesn't work that way, however. i just don't think it was intended.

They do. Your OS + Firewall (etc) is YOUR AID.

Those being cracked (or not) don't modify the threshold to finding you because they're matrix attributes, but programs you invoke, load, unload, and use. You simply cannot perform matrix actions without them.

[Jaid]

They do. Your OS + Firewall (etc) is YOUR AID.

Those being cracked (or not) don't modify the threshold to finding you because they're matrix attributes, but programs you invoke, load, unload, and use. You simply cannot perform matrix actions without them.

someone uses an attack program on you scoring 3 hits. you roll response + firewall for defense, 2 hits, you're taking his attack rating + 1 damage. you roll system + armor to resist damage. you just used your firewall, and your system. all without even spending an action.

which is still a moot point, because as written you still can't register them; they're not hacking, common, simsense, or autosoft programs. as such, they cannot have any options, including copy protection and registration.

[Draco18s]

someone uses an attack program on you scoring 3 hits. you roll response + firewall for defense, 2 hits, you're taking his attack rating + 1 damage. you roll system + armor to resist damage. you just used your firewall, and your system. all without even spending an action.

which is still a moot point, because as written you still can't register them; they're not hacking, common, simsense, or autosoft programs. as such, they cannot have any options, including copy protection and registration.

You don't use a firewall to defend against attacks, that's like saying that you dodge bullets because you roll your Reaction score.

Rather, you employ a firewall to prevent attacks.

Or to put it another way:
The firewall is always doing what it does. There's not button you need to push that says "defend against that attack."

[Jaid]

You don't use a firewall to defend against attacks, that's like saying that you dodge bullets because you roll your Reaction score.

Rather, you employ a firewall to prevent attacks.

Or to put it another way:
The firewall is always doing what it does. There's not button you need to push that says "defend against that attack."

you use reaction to dodge a bullet. you use firewall to dodge a matrix attack. i'm not seeing what the huge deal is here. if it has your firewall in the test, you are using your firewall. the firewall is presumably interacting with something external, because your skill certainly doesn't come into it. clearly, the firewall is doing something. whether you had to order it to do something or not isn't the point. it still did something. i don't have to consciously order my heart to beat, but that doesn't mean my heart isn't beating. it just means i'm not ordering it to beat consciously. if some sort of test were based on whether my heart is beating or not, it wouldn't matter whether i was consciously thinking for it to beat, it would merely matter whether or not it beats. likewise, it doesn't matter whether you consciously order your firewall to do something, it merely matters whether your firewall does something or not.

[Draco18s]

you use reaction to dodge a bullet. you use firewall to dodge a matrix attack. i'm not seeing what the huge deal is here. if it has your firewall in the test, you are using your firewall. the firewall is presumably interacting with something external, because your skill certainly doesn't come into it. clearly, the firewall is doing something. whether you had to order it to do something or not isn't the point. it still did something. i don't have to consciously order my heart to beat, but that doesn't mean my heart isn't beating. it just means i'm not ordering it to beat consciously. if some sort of test were based on whether my heart is beating or not, it wouldn't matter whether i was consciously thinking for it to beat, it would merely matter whether or not it beats. likewise, it doesn't matter whether you consciously order your firewall to do something, it merely matters whether your firewall does something or not.

Not the difference between "something did something for me" and "I use something to do something."

[Kerenshara]

You know, I read the OP and then started skimming a way down as it got a little off topic, but here's a problem I have, and it has to do with an observation made WAY up the thread:

Logic is the ability to organize, process and remember detailed information. It makes sense that the skills related to building comlinks and their accessories and writing code should be based on that statistic.

Intuition is the ability to think creatively and adapt quickly, often involving intuitive level analysis and response. It covers the ability to make things up as you go along (improvise).

It was mentioned that in 2070 programs are almost autonomous, and I would point out that the speed of cybercombat is going to be lightning fast. The ability to do a extended-test hack for access makes sense to key to the ability to methodically probe for weaknesses in the Firewall. But in an on-the-fly hack? The ability to anticipate intuitively the opponent's probably responses and react aprorpiately requires "situational awareness", so I would think cybercombat and actions taken in the initiative pass would key to INT instead of LOG. I mean, that's one half of the INI stat, right?

I LIKE the point that was made about program autonomy, because it seems to fit the descriptions in the most recent fluff. And I support the idea of bringing the stat in to the cyber-game. The way I would propose it would be that anything extended keys to LOG, while anything in Passes keys to INT; I would handle the tests as Stat+Skill, with a limit to stat of RTG. If you KNOW what to do but your tools aren't up to the task, then you're hosed, so that's how I would handle it. Put another way, an inexperienced and uncreative kid with top-flight software is going to be hard pressed against a really veteran pro who has learned to think on her feet and make the best of her slightly less capable programs. Now, for things that are exclusively based on RTG (I am thinking Armor and things like that) nothing would really change.

Anyhow, that's MY take on it. Your actual milage will varry dramatically.

[Draco18s]

Anyhow, that's MY take on it. Your actual milage will varry dramatically.[/font]

Thumbs up to that. Very well thought out.