Why shouldn't mundanes resist magic?, Make the Mage optional Options

[Draco18s]

Just back on spirits for a moment, I'm not sure how stick&shock deals with them, so I'll check that out... But hmm yeah I agree multiple bound spirits cost a lot of money... but they are also pretty much game winners. They are better then grenades or white phosphorus and stuff. But, yeah, point taken, in comparison to those mundane things, they are mucho expensive. Right you are then! <tips hat>

Spirits have Force*2 Hardened armor. SnS cuts armor by half. So against spirits, SnS is fired vs. Force in armor (meaning 1 net hit is sufficient for anything up to a Force 6).

[DireRadiant]

Guns have no drain. Everyone can have a gun. Guns do huge damage. Get rid of them.

[kzt]

(We can probably thank FrankTrollman for that. Whether some of the devs like him or not, he's always been a wonderful crucible for them to refine out the kinks of the system in).

Yes. Unlike most everyone else in the development team he saw what the implications of what seemed like minor elements in the game and how they had major impacts on the world.

[kzt]

Guns have no drain. Everyone can have a gun. Guns do huge damage. Get rid of them.

No, we need to allow them to hit twice as hard when you really need to hurt someone.

[Psikerlord]

@Draco18 - Ah, I see now, thanks for that! And hmm yeah I can see how that helps to deal with most spirits... yay!

[Stahlseele]

Especially Considering, that you NEED one Net hit to hit anything AT ALL.

[The Jake]

I really hate GMs who think mages are so OP that they need shafting.... I mean balancing.

- J.

[Muspellsheimr]

I am primarily a player, with Magicians as my favorite 'class'.

I am currently GMing a game, but all my house rules come from experience as a player.



Mages are overpowering by RAW. Specifically, Direct Combat Spells & Spirits.

My fixes to these problems?
) Direct Combat Spells allow for a Defense & Resistance test.
) Spirit's Mental attributes, Physical attributes, & Skills are one-half Force, round up (minimum 1).
) Critter powers are now all resisted with 2 attributes instead of the base 1. Hardened Armor / Immunity was altered to automatic soaking - end result, Immunity is roughly the same power, but just seems to work better overall.


Guess what? Direct Spells are still viable & powerful, but not quite game breaking as they where before (although the mage never overcasting may be part of this).

Spirits still provide significant assistance to the team.





I have played with the magic rules RAW, and found some aspects to be distinctly overpowering. I have now played with 'nerfed' versions, and find them far from being underpowered.
Conclusion - they were indeed overpowering to begin with.

[The Jake]

I am primarily a player, with Magicians as my favorite 'class'.

I am currently GMing a game, but all my house rules come from experience as a player.



Mages are overpowering by RAW. Specifically, Direct Combat Spells & Spirits.

My fixes to these problems?
) Direct Combat Spells allow for a Defense & Resistance test.
) Spirit's Mental attributes, Physical attributes, & Skills are one-half Force, round up (minimum 1).
) Critter powers are now all resisted with 2 attributes instead of the base 1. Hardened Armor / Immunity was altered to automatic soaking - end result, Immunity is roughly the same power, but just seems to work better overall.


Guess what? Direct Spells are still viable & powerful, but not quite game breaking as they where before (although the mage never overcasting may be part of this).

Spirits still provide significant assistance to the team.





I have played with the magic rules RAW, and found some aspects to be distinctly overpowering. I have now played with 'nerfed' versions, and find them far from being underpowered.
Conclusion - they were indeed overpowering to begin with.

I have to admit, I never played SR4A (largely because we all bought our copies of the BBB ~6 months before SR4A) but I took one look at those rules and thought it was a major, silly, nerf.
Seeing that from your perspective makes me think twice about that opinion.

I'll wait for a hardcopy to hit my area for I make my final decision.

- J.

EDIT: I felt the game balance issues weren't with mages per se but in general, with anything occupying the upper end of the spectrum in terms of power. Be it great dragons, cyberzombies or delta grade cyber freaks, high grade initiates, etc.

[Muspellsheimr]

I have to admit, I never played SR4A (largely because we all bought our copies of the BBB ~6 months before SR4A) but I took one look at those rules and thought it was a major, silly, nerf.
Seeing that from your perspective makes me think twice about that opinion.

I'll wait for a hardcopy to hit my area for I make my final decision.

None of my above rules appear in SR4A - optional or otherwise.

The 'nerf' in SR4A to Direct Combat Spells was retarded, as many hear would agree (some where neutral, very few actually liked it).
There is no 'nerf' to Spirits that I am aware of (RAW).
There is no 'nerf' to Critter Powers that I am aware of (RAW).

[The Jake]

Even better. No need for me to spend cash when I can houserule something.

My player's haven't tried summoning uber beasties yet. My gentlemen's agreement is holding well so far.

- J.

[Larme]

Even better. No need for me to spend cash when I can houserule something.

My player's haven't tried summoning uber beasties yet. My gentlemen's agreement is holding well so far.

- J.

This is a strangely common misconception... SR4A's rules do not cost money. They're available in a free errata. Only thing you need the book for is the improved layout, art, and story (or if you lack a core book, obviously)

[Dakka Dakka]

There is no 'nerf' to Spirits that I am aware of (RAW).
There is no 'nerf' to Critter Powers that I am aware of (RAW).

But there are:
Innate Spells may no longer be overcasted.
The Movement Power has a BOD limit.

Those two I remember right now.

[Glyph]

I don't think the magic rules are broken, but if you do insist on fixing them, then instead of nerfing normal spellcasting, which is hardly overpowered (remember, hits, not net hits, are capped at Force), nerf the problems - overcasting and oversummoning. Either do away with both, so that Magic is a hard limit to spell and spirit Force, or make them more difficult to do (so that they become a real emergency tactic, rather than a common one). One of the many things I disliked about the proposed SR4A rule changes is that they would have made overcasting a more attractive option.

[Heath Robinson]

I should not have reacted so adversarily. Post exam blowout, or something.

So, is Dumpshock amenable to this alternative: You may forgo your roll in the Spell Resistance Test in exchange for being treated as if you had an OR threshold equal to half your Essence Loss from Augementation. This does not synergise with Counterspelling at all, so it doesn't make Mages completely redundant.


I should point out that this supports a game goal that I assumed that everyone recognised: Namely that of people not refusing to leave the Mage's sight. If you tell a guy that he will die if he doesn't wear his armour, and he trusts you, then he will wear his armour. Tell the Sam that he will die or kill the rest of the team then go to jail forever if he loses LOS to the Mage then he will not lose LOS to the Mage. Shepharding the other characters is probably not fun for the Mage.

[Machiavelli]

I am primarily a player, with Magicians as my favorite 'class'.

I am currently GMing a game, but all my house rules come from experience as a player.



Mages are overpowering by RAW. Specifically, Direct Combat Spells & Spirits.

My fixes to these problems?
) Direct Combat Spells allow for a Defense & Resistance test.
) Spirit's Mental attributes, Physical attributes, & Skills are one-half Force, round up (minimum 1).
) Critter powers are now all resisted with 2 attributes instead of the base 1. Hardened Armor / Immunity was altered to automatic soaking - end result, Immunity is roughly the same power, but just seems to work better overall.


Guess what? Direct Spells are still viable & powerful, but not quite game breaking as they where before (although the mage never overcasting may be part of this).

Spirits still provide significant assistance to the team.

I have played with the magic rules RAW, and found some aspects to be distinctly overpowering. I have now played with 'nerfed' versions, and find them far from being underpowered.
Conclusion - they were indeed overpowering to begin with.

Like i pointed out several times, i really don´t get the problem. I play mages since 15 years and i never had been in the situation that i was overpowered. Maybe I make something essential wrong, maybe you lack something. I don´t know. Therefore I won´t comment this topic anymore. Larme is definitely doing a good job to argue this "problem" conclusively and if someone still has problems with the rules....yeah, thats what houserules are for.

But I have a question: if attributes of the spirits are halved, what do you use them for instead, if not physical tasks? Usage of powers? Do they still have to materialize to use physical powers? If you don´t use them anyway, you could solve it like with shamanic ghosts in previous editions, that didn´t have the materialization power.

[Larsine]

I'm a little nervous about "Dawn of the Artifacts" for that reason as I have worried it's going to break this with "magic items" in some way.

You don't have to worry.

Lars

[Jhaiisiin]

If I remember rightly, a mentioned houserule somewhere on DS is to make overcasting/summoning still do physical drain, but double the normal drain as well. So that killing yourself casting becomes a *very* real possibility, and thus removes some of the desire to always overcast.

[knasser]

You don't have to worry.

Lars

Thanks. I buy everything SR4 anyway, but its good to have my worries lessened. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

K.

[Mäx]

Spirits have Force*2 Hardened armor. SnS cuts armor by half. So against spirits, SnS is fired vs. Force in armor (meaning 1 net hit is sufficient for anything up to a Force 6).

And WP grenades work nicely up to force 7 and Zapper rockets to force 11 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Since the Errata the Thunderstruck is the portable Spirit Zapper. Spirits fo Force 13 and lower cannot be immune against its projectiles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

The vehicle Gauss Guns zap Spirits up to force 28 with one net hit.

[Psikerlord]

@Max: hmm yeah that zapper rocket is a pretty awesome anti-spirit weapon, not too expensive considering what it can deal with, and availability 10. I'm not sure on WP - there seems to be two damage codes - one in the description, and one in the table - I'll check errata see if it clarifies?
@Dakka Dakka - I'll have to look that Thundestruck up, I'm not sure what it is, but sounds pretty bad ass! Which book is it from?
Thanks for pointing all these spirit counters out to me, folks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . I'm all for things which balance the game, and it's good to know there are reasonable(ish) responses available to handle big spirit mojo.

[Dakka Dakka]

The Thunderstruck is in the Arsenal, but be sure to look at the errata for this book. Without it the weapon is pretty unimpressive. The vehicle mounted gauss or rail guns are in the same book. But I think at least one of them should have another erratum. A rail gun should not have a splash effect.

[Stahlseele]

Depends on the Size of the Projectile.
Meteores have no splash effect either, but the impact does.

[Dakka Dakka]

Look at the table in the Arsenal. It is much more likely that the Glop Cannon has a splash effect than the Gauss Cannon. the -2/m however is in the Gauss Cannon's line.