QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 14 2009, 08:27 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
Ok, dude? Drop the analogy. Lords? Priests? Commoners? Tokens of Protection? Please say what you mean.
Very simple analogy. Commoners = Mundanes. Lords = Mages. Priests = Spirits/Paracritters. Token of Protection from Commoners = Armour. I was beginning to blur the analogy in that post, but it's basically true that you rely upon your Mage to defend you against Magic and this creates a power dynamic that's not particularly healthy.
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 14 2009, 08:27 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
You do not have to spend actions to remain aware of the situation. Obvious things are observed with no action at all. Stealth is an Opposed Test, it is resisted as soon as you have a chance to perceive someone, it does not take up an action.
Anyway, you're tilting the situation to where the mage has had a chance to prepare, and the sammy hasn't. Sure, a mage who's got a spirit summoned up, and a clear approach to sneak up on the sammy will win. But a sammy could be equipped with motion sensors, could set up laser triplines, could have drones watching his back, whatever. Of course the mage wins if you slant all the odds in his favor. But in straight face off, the sammy wins. What you're saying should be obvious -- the person who's prepared and has the plan is the one more likely to succeed. That's not a flaw, that's a feature.
That's the thing - Shadowrun is a game where you have 2 situations that turn up with any regularity, which are both asymmetric in favour of the other person. You have the "I'm intruding into a secured facility" situation, and the "I'm in my normal life" situation. In both of these you can have prepared opponents. The fact that you can have passive preparation against one attack vector (guns and gases) but nother another (magic) is bad. There's not even a decent portable active preparation against magic because it can negate you as an actor with one opposed test between Stat + Skill on the part of the aggressor, and Stat on the defender.
Now, when you're intruding into a facility you should be wary of all these things. However, the rules make a Security Mage with a small number of spells and access to Air Spirits extremely hard to deal with from a 'runner perspective. Giving Magic all the cool things it has renders the entire focus of the game pretty hard to pull off in a world that doesn't rigidly obey tropes or a code of honour.
That's not the game I expect to play - one where people don't do things that are effective during their jobs just because you're the hero. That's not the tone I get from SRs material. Yet, it has to be that way because Magic synergises with itself too much. This is exactly the same problem that D&D has - Wizards get Wallmancy and multi-target Save-or-Loses. Clerics get massive buffs that all stack.
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 14 2009, 08:27 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
Magic is not superior in all situations. For instance, where there is a background count, it loses out. Guns are consistently effective while magic is not. Guns also do not injure their user, while spells can. Especially spirits. Ever seen a force 5 spirit roll 5 hits when it's summoned? It's not pretty.
Summoning a F5 spirit that rolls 5 dice is DV 5. If you're a sensible Mage that won't be above your Magic, so it's Stun. That heals pretty quickly. You also get a Drain Resistance roll. Sure, it hurts, but you get that Spirit for a while and we can just assume that a decent Sec Mage has a few useful Spirits bound - even low Force Spirits are terribly useful.
In the case of Background Count, you are right. Why a Mage on the defensive would deal with operations in that environment instead of Mundane security is beyond me, though.
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 14 2009, 08:27 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
I agree there, mages can do a lot more than direct combat. The thing is, this thread was an offshoot of one where people were pointing at direct combat being the be all and end all. I think you're right -- it's better than guns in some ways (silent, doesn't take ammo), and worse in other ways (subject to background count, drain). Mages are super useful. It's better to have one than not. But the question is, do they always automatically win? That would be a clear no.
And mental manipulations? Not as good as people say. You cast control thoughts with a complex action. Now you must let everyone else act out their init passes, which might include killing you, especially because you've got to sustain a spell. It takes a complex to cast and then a simple to command. That's two init passes to remove one guy from the combat. By contrast, a gun can remove two people every pass. And Mob Mind is absolute murder for drain, if you cast it at a high force it will hurt like hell, and if you cast it at low force it will be shrugged off by those with good willpower before you can give them a command.
You're putting words in my mouth. This is extracting what I saw as a valid point from Cain's diatribe of SR4bashing and admitting that it's actually valid - then suggesting something to help defuse the claim.
Mental Manipulations synergise extremely well with other Spells (like Invisibility) and Critter Powers (like Concealment). If you can avoid being noticed for the time period between casting and sending the order "turn around and use supressive fire on the team" then it's all gravy. That's the thing - you should be extremely paranoid because Mental Manipulation spells don't even require a licence and are, rightfully, considered more humane for Security and Police forces to use on suspects than Stunball. You can cast Mob Control 4 for a few boxes of Stun and command sections of a rioting crowd to present themselves for arrest and nobody gets hurt.
I also referred to the more Drain-efficient Control Actions and Mob Control instead of the other Mental Manipulations. They're F/2 and F/2 +2 respectively. Sure, you subtract the victim's Willpower from their DPs, but if you just want people to sit still or walk off somewhere? No tests. Street Sams are built to absorb pretty hefty penalties in the first place anyway.
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 14 2009, 08:27 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
Not sure what you're referring to here... Everything I say is my original thought though, I am not adhering to a dogma, I'm making it up as I go. A bit different from someone quoting a holy text as if the fact of the words on the page made them true.
My apologies. Was feeling pretty tired of so many people focussing on Direct Combat spells when I didn't see this as ever being about them. I was venting that.