Ex-military 'Runners, How do they REALLY fit in the shadows? Options

[Kerenshara]

It's sort of a cliche in my experience, the "ex-military" shadowrunner gunslinger, who might have (often) had some Special Forces experience. But how would such an individual really fit in with a group of individualistic, mercenary, greedy misanthropes like your average scratch shadowrunning team?

Let's look at what the bring to the table:

Tactical training, knowledge and experience.
Weapon and possibly demolition training and experience.
Self-discipline, certainly above what's common on the streeths of the 6^th world.
A team oriented attitude, with possible leadership experience.
Whatever secondary skills the military handed them.
MilSpec bio- and cyberware.
(This list isn't meant to be exclusive, just to give an idea of some common bits.)

Working against them:

They are accustomed to a functional chain of command, knowing who their boss is.
They are accustomed to an orderly process.
They are accustomed to extensive logistical support, generally speaking.
They are accustomed to a clear deliniation of responsibilities.
They are accustomed to trusting their team mates with their lives, and vice versa.
They are accustomed to intensive team and personal training.
They are accustomed to everybody on their team being in peak physical shape.

See a problem here? The shadows are NOT the military, and don't operate like the military. Now, if they could get their team mates to see things their way, they could be highly effective and impart a great deal of strength and ability to a team. Their focus and attitude could easily build a group of individuals into a finely honed instrument... or the samurai could decide the drekker is pissing them off and frag the slot as soon as his back is turned.

My problem is that most of the military characters I have played with have NONE of those subtle signs that scream "military!" to the world around them. Worldwide, there is this odd ability of long-haul SF operators to spot each other in a crowd, never having spoken or even met; They acknowledge each other with a bare respectful nod and carry on. Recently, one of the most junior role-players I have gamed with recently was in the back of the StufferShack^TM when it all came appart, and he was the last person to open fire, despite initiative advantages and all the bonuses you could imagine. When queried by the GM, he said "I don't know who the bad guys are here; these are civilians and I', not going to shoot until I know who to shoot at." After the fight, he (the player) felt like he hadn't been "useful", but the GM and I (and a couple other players) jumped right on him and told him he had done it EXACTLY right. Surrounded by civilians, a SF operator isn't going to open fire until either they are ABSOLUTELY positive of their target discrimination, or they are directly threatened, and they didn't move on him directly. He went away and thought about it, then came back and asked to talk more about that side of the mindset. He's turned into a VERY believable ex-military SF operator, and I am proud to brag on him to everybody. When I first met him (at age fifteen or so - gods! Has it been THAT long?), he was the worst power-gaming bigger-gun shoot-first roll-playing kid you ever met. We're quite proud of him in our group, for how he's matured as a gamer and a role player.

So here's my actual question, since I wound up rambling to illustrate a simple point: Do you think it's actually realistic to expect ex-military (especially ex-SF operators) to not only survive but to thrive and/or be in high demain in the world of the Shadows? I will weigh back in later with my own views, but have at it for now!

[Fix-it]

They are accustomed to a functional chain of command, knowing who their boss is.
They are accustomed to an orderly process.
They are accustomed to extensive logistical support, generally speaking.
They are accustomed to a clear deliniation of responsibilities.
They are accustomed to trusting their team mates with their lives, and vice versa.
They are accustomed to intensive team and personal training.
They are accustomed to everybody on their team being in peak physical shape.

actually, these items are debatable;

if we are assuming actual Army Special Forces, the Green-Berets-I-Am-Not-A-Hat types, then they will have no problem working with people who are defficient in one or all of these categories. it is their JOB to train people who don't have the skills, physical fitness, and discipline, into an effective fighting force. they are quite good at it, from most reports.

an 18_ fresh from an A-team might not LIKE working with a bunch of criminal misanthropes, but he has been trained to do something that's quite close in most practical respects.

[Mirilion]

My friend was a sniper. Let's just say his term left him a bit scarred, and as far as I know he doesn't want to have anything to do with stuff like that ever again.
So my answer to you is "probably not".
You have to have a certain personality to keep living like that even if you don't have to. Now that I think about it, they probably do it because they don't think they have any other choice.
Maybe they don't think they have what it takes to actually live normally, and so they don't. I know a few ex soldiers with cases of civilian-shock after their discharge.
Maybe they secretly have some sort of inferiority complex, viewing even ordinary wageslaves as supermen able to deal with familiy, kids, bills, work, a boss telling you what to do, things like that.

[Earlydawn]

I generally see ex-military types as occupying the entirety of the spectrum of runners.. the drugged up PTSDed OTH discharges working with the inexperienced, disposable types, while the more experienced professionals run with the more prestigious groups. Leadership is obviously going to be a clusterfuck in runner groups, so the best thing that a soldier can take away from the service is good awareness, technical skills, and developed gut instinct.

That said, I think the private sector will likely pick up the majority of ex-military to choose to continue making their living by the sword, be it a colossal AA corporate PMC, or a small merc band. For that reason, military types will probably remain under-represented in the shadows. Not a bad thing insofar as shooters, since any trog can use an automatic pretty well, but more esoteric military skills like precision demolitions and fieldcraft will probably be in high demand indefinitely.

[the_real_elwood]

There's a lot of different kinds of people in the military. Sure, lots of them are going to be accustomed to working within the military structure, but not all of them are going to have that same kind of mindset that you described. If everyone in the military had that mindset, you wouldn't see so many friendly fire incidents. Plus, the elite SF guys aren't always working with orderly processes (working closely with Afghani tribal forces), or going to have extensive logistical support (LRRP). Hell, lots of people in the military aren't exactly in peak physical shape. This really isn't an issue in the SF community, but in the general forces, sure. Basically, you're generalizing an awful lot about the mental composition of military forces on the whole.

Now, the ex-SF military guy is often a lazy archetype for a roleplayer that wants to have a combat-oriented character, but that doesn't automatically make it wrong.

Oh, and in real life, lots of soldiers with SF experience finish their government service and go to work for private military companies (aka mercenaries).

[MJBurrage]

Short answer The A-Team (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Longer answer, either play a more mercenary campaign for a group of ex-military; or play the character as the professional type, and come up with a good reason they are on the outs with their former service.

P.S. As I was writing this it struck me that Magnum P.I. would be a fun model for a white-hat campaign based on vets who do not have to be in the shadows, but are none-the-less.

[kzt]

You can have a group that is a bunch of pros. A security consulting company that provides "full service" for "special" clients.

[Strict9]

What about the angle of the SF soldier being a career soldier and once they are out not having adaptable skills to a non military career? I mean they could do corp sec or lonestar or run shadows if they are in a bind, but not thrive at your local Soy shop. The military discipline might still be there but maybe dormant to survival?

What if he was discharged for some negative reason like maybe killing an innocent on the field and was tried in court? That's on his SIN and then they ship him back to the world with a slap on the face and a good luck. Who's going to hire him on a top scale job with the skills he has?

I see where you are coming from on this and it raises an interesting point but I think a characters history comes into play is all.

Just theoretically.

[Kerenshara]

My friend was a sniper. Let's just say his term left him a bit scarred, and as far as I know he doesn't want to have anything to do with stuff like that ever again.
So my answer to you is "probably not".
You have to have a certain personality to keep living like that even if you don't have to. Now that I think about it, they probably do it because they don't think they have any other choice.
Maybe they don't think they have what it takes to actually live normally, and so they don't. I know a few ex soldiers with cases of civilian-shock after their discharge.
Maybe they secretly have some sort of inferiority complex, viewing even ordinary wageslaves as supermen able to deal with familiy, kids, bills, work, a boss telling you what to do, things like that.

Actually the last part is pretty close to the mark, but the whole comment is very on-target. Civilian-shock is a major problem the US military has NEVER done well is out-processing for civilian life, especially in modern times and doubly so for combat veterans. But I know many military people who wonder how the successful sarraryman does it.

[Critias]

Not everyone fits in terribly well in the military, and even those who do don't necessarily crave that structured a lifestyle afterwards. They aren't all spotless guys who thrive in a disciplined environment, orderly processes, etc, etc...and their personal level of self discipline certainly isn't above the norm for what you might find in the Sixth World. Military bases wouldn't need MPs, if that was the case.

Even today, there are guys who are gangbangers, criminal bikers, etc, that go military for the training and the experience, then drop back into their old lifestyle as soon as their enlistment is up (or even before). Some of them stick with the military once they get a taste of it, but certainly not all. Toss in the more rampant gangs/criminal lifestyle of 2070+, and I think you'll have a much more serious problem.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I understand that the assholes in that article are a drop in the bucket compared to the overall population of the US military, yadda yadda yadda. I'm not disparaging servicemen (of any nationality). But they're not all saints, and I see it getting worse, not better, in Shadowrun's timeline.

[Method]

Toss in the more rampant gangs/criminal lifestyle of 2070+,

There is a great episode of the History Channel's Gangland series dealing with this. They even interview a guy who traveled to Iraq and Afghanistan to document gang graffiti cropping up in those deployment zones.

[Fix-it]

Toss in the more rampant gangs/criminal lifestyle of 2070+, and I think you'll have a much more serious problem.

the question you have to ask about those pictures is, are they gang members, or just young adults being idiots?

social networking sites (myspace et al) have uncounted pictures of people flashing "gang signs". hand signs picked up from an MTV rap video maketh not a "gangsta".

[Critias]

the question you have to ask about those pictures is, are they gang members, or just young adults being idiots?

social networking sites (myspace et al) have uncounted pictures of people flashing "gang signs". hand signs picked up from an MTV rap video maketh not a "gangsta".

There was an awful lot more to the link that the two or three pictures. Did you read much of the text?

[Angelone]

All types of crime, not just gang related is a problem on Army bases atleast if not military wide. On Fort Hood everytime a unit goes to the field there are break-ins of barracks and sometimes housing on and of post. Also thefts in motorpools. I heard motorcycle theft and carjackings aren't unheard of on Bragg.

As for adapting to the civilian world for some it's easier than others. The reverse is also true failure to adapt to the Army is pretty common. You get all that training and get out. What you do after that is up to you.

[Daishi]

Normal people don't thrive in the Shadows regardless of their background. Normal civilians don't and normal military guys don't. So play an abnormal one.

[Kerenshara]

Normal people don't thrive in the Shadows regardless of their background. Normal civilians don't and normal military guys don't. So play an abnormal one.

EXACTLY! But that's just my point: if you take the "easy way out" and claim a military background, you either have to play the normal, build and play a convincing ABnormal (the military doesn't tolerate misfits and rebels gracefully. They put up with the screwballs in SF because they know they have to, and even there they are more military in bearing and outlook than civilian or individual) character, or do what I consider to be the much more interesting choice: play an adaptable military personality and try to split the diference down the middle. That is do-able, and interesting to boot. Ammusingly, the third way is anything BUT an "easy way out", but it IS the third option. I am just tired of the people who say "I'm ex-military, but I just don't let it show, and I think and act like a civilian". *rude noise*

[PBI]

First, you have to remember that the vast, vast majority of players have a relationship to real military experience akin to the lower end of the Kelvin scale. They think military is what they see on TV and in the movies, so players will always get military wrong. Second, and just as important, as it's already been stated, there are lots and lots of different quality people in the military, and yes, there's a place for them all in SR.

Got an odd-ball type, well, how he fits in is self-explanatory. Got a normal lifer, maybe he's doing it because it's all he knows, maybe he's doing it because the military gave him all these nice skills that can easily be applied to acquiring stuff through non-standard means (i.e. breaking and entering using explosives). Got a combat vet, maybe he's doing it because he misses the adrenaline rush, or maybe it's the one thing he excelled at and doesn't want to trade military for civvie security.

I would tend to think the ex-mil would end up eventually gravitating towards the more professional SR teams, particularly as they gain rep for being the one that consistently gets himself and one or two others out alive from the bits and bobs of odds and sods of the lower-quality runners out there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

EXACTLY! But that's just my point: if you take the "easy way out" and claim a military background, you either have to play the normal, build and play a convincing ABnormal (the military doesn't tolerate misfits and rebels gracefully. They put up with the screwballs in SF because they know they have to, and even there they are more military in bearing and outlook than civilian or individual) character, or do what I consider to be the much more interesting choice: play an adaptable military personality and try to split the diference down the middle. That is do-able, and interesting to boot. Ammusingly, the third way is anything BUT an "easy way out", but it IS the third option. I am just tired of the people who say "I'm ex-military, but I just don't let it show, and I think and act like a civilian". *rude noise*

Not quite true. You are talking about a professional army where you weed out those that do not fit. In a militia or conscript army, you do not have a choice. You make do with the people that do not fit, you put up with all the screwups that do not want to be there in the first place because those are your orders. And at the end of the day, those screwups still need to know how to fire a rifle and march in a straight line. Best thing yet are that those screwups are people with military skills and a civillian mindset. Which is perfect for shadowrunners.

[Method]

You also have to consider a few things specific to the setting:
1.) there are a lot more militaries in Sixth World, which equates to a lot more ex-military types.
2.) since governments don't have a monopoly on militaries there will be greater competition for qualified people, which equates to more "less qualified" people enlisted to fill the ranks.
3.) corporations operate militaries and (in general) are known to use, abuse and discard people to support their bottom line, which equates to more ex-military types with a grudge against The Man.
4.) most militaries probably don't support their vets because its not cost effective (corps) or they don't have the resources (governments), which equates to more ex-military types falling on hard times.

There have also been numerous threads about the cost-effectiveness of infantry in SR and the general consensus is that a guy with minimal training, a rifle and some body armor is still the cheapest way to go.

[Kerenshara]

You also have to consider a few things specific to the setting:
1.) there are a lot more militaries in Sixth World, which equates to a lot more ex-military types.

This is entirely true, but every single "ex-military" cop-out I have played with has been CAS or UCAS, which makes them a decendant of the US Military culture. That means I have a certain "narrow focus" when it comes to this issue. Now, if somebody DID decide to play a member of a different army, then I'd have to see.

2.) since governments don't have a monopoly on militaries there will be greater competition for qualified people, which equates to more "less qualified" people enlisted to fill the ranks.

Except if current trends continue, the actual number of boddies will become smaller and smaller, focusing on better and better trained small units. And if the crunch DOES become that tight, it just means more resources will be spent on bringing the ones with the right attitude and motivation along through supplemental training and attention. The corps ESPECIALLY will not pay for the upkeep of a standing military force if it is not 100% what they are looking for. Now, for the second tier armies of the 6th world that may be more of an issue, but in a way those forces are almost more militia than armies by modern standards, and their "attitudes" and so forth wouldn't come under what I was talking about in the first place.

3.) corporations operate militaries and (in general) are known to use, abuse and discard people to support their bottom line, which equates to more ex-military types with a grudge against The Man.

Um, the propensity to grind up people only exists when there is a profit to be found in the act. Even basic military training is heinously expensive, meaning each lost trooper is a permanent loss of a capital investment. Now, at the first sign of disloyalty or wilfull incompetence, they would be completely willing to take out their dissatisfaction on the individual. And there IS a higher incidence of the corp having given orders the trooper would have found offensive or morally objectionable such that they had a grudge when they left the service of the corp (we DID say they were 'runners now). But it's financially counterproductive to view soldiers you paid to train as disposable, and that mean's it's fundamentally un-corp-like.

4.) most militaries probably don't support their vets because its not cost effective (corps) or they don't have the resources (governments), which equates to more ex-military types falling on hard times.

OK, here I would tend to generally agree, but why let them become vets in the first place, when regeneration, cyber replacement or even gene-enhanced recupeation are all MUCH more cost-effective than losing the investment and experience represented by any injured trooper? It also makes them more indentured-er, I mean indebted to the corp. So, unless you screwed up by the numbers, why DID you choose to become a "Vet" and lose that free healthcare and everything else, turning to the shadows?

There have also been numerous threads about the cost-effectiveness of infantry in SR and the general consensus is that a guy with minimal training, a rifle and some body armor is still the cheapest way to go.

Actually, it seemed to bea pretty straight split, and by no means in the favor of the "idiot grunt". At least not in the more recent thread I was a part of. There's too much to know in a modern army. If you don't know it/have it, you're not worthy of the title "army".

[Method]

This is entirely true, but every single "ex-military" cop-out I have played with has been CAS or UCAS...

Sounds like a bias specific to your table maybe?

Except if current trends continue, the actual number of boddies will become smaller and smaller, focusing on better and better trained small units.

Probably true, but this assumes a lot. For one, we have no precedent for how corporations would wage open wars on one another. And you could argue that most governments may rely more heavily on basic infantry because they lack to money to deploy trick technological weapon systems for all but the most strategic missions. You also have smoldering conflicts and insurgencies all over the world. I doubt we need to review how effective technological warfare is under such circumstances. Boots on the ground FTW.

The corps ESPECIALLY will not pay for the upkeep of a standing military force if it is not 100% what they are looking for.

They also don't over-pay, over-train, over-equip. If a guy with a rifle can do a decent job, you don't send an elite delta-cybered killing machine. More importantly, if you can train, equip and deploy 20 guys with rifles for the cost of one elite warrior they are likely to be more effective in most situations. Plus loosing the elite warrior would be like loosing a fighter jet *and* pilot, where as loosing a few troops isn't going to be that costly. Sometimes good business is more about risk management than profit.

Even basic military training is heinously expensive, meaning each lost trooper is a permanent loss of a capital investment.

Heinously expensive training was almost certainly the driving force behind the invention and development of skillwires. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

...but why let them become vets in the first place, when regeneration, cyber replacement or even gene-enhanced recupeation are all MUCH more cost-effective than losing the investment and experience represented by any injured trooper?

Much more cost effective? Again, training in 207x isn't going to be a limiting factor like it is today. Skillwires and simsense programing for a group of soldiers is certainly cheeper than implanting a bunch of cyber in a single highly trained guy for most situations.

But all of this is drifting off topic a little. Especially considering that most players are using the "ex-military" label to justify an elite combat character, right? I would argue that a more common and consistent backstory would involve basic military training, a good reason for leaving whatever force they were in and a period of time spent honing their skills and acquiring 'ware in some paramilitary shadow scene (which reminds me- we shouldn't forget about all the mercenary activity in the Sixth World- another channel by which a combat character could have learned their trade).

[Angelone]

Bah, Method beat me to it. If I have an ex-military type they are more likely than not going to be a merc. MET 2K most likely but 10000 Daggers is starting to intrest me.

[Socinus]

Completely depends on the person.

Some people are more adaptable than others. There ARE Shadowrunner teams that operate like illegal Special Forces with that kind of precision, not every team is a compilation of comedic opposites.

If a person is extremely good or an extreme specialist, its conceivable that yeah they could have a place on a team or even alone if they're good enough. People who are a little more..."battle weary" or who are used to command may find it a little more difficult.

Your average rifleman will have a leg up on a street punk because of general training but that doesn't mean they wont use their training to try and be Rambo.

[Kerenshara]

Bah, Method beat me to it. If I have an ex-military type they are more likely than not going to be a merc. MET 2K most likely but 10000 Daggers is starting to intrest me.

I want to take the time to answer Method's thoughtful post like it deserves, but I want to hit a highlight you tapped right on the head here:

The majority of ex-military folks will drift towards the various merc units, or secondary service with a corp where the structure and support will be most innately comfortable for them. That is absolutely true.

But my original point was: so, you DIDN'T go into a merc unit, you're an independent 'runner on the streets of Seatle (or Denver or Atlanta or DeeCee or the Rotten Apple or Tokyo or...) and you're kind of a square peg in a round hole, so tell me how you got here, and how you see the streets.

I will hit it again when I answer Method, but yes, my experiences make my opinion on the matter very biased. But it's not just one "table". It's about a dozen "tables" over twenty years, and the theme doesn't seem to varry on that score. I wanted to know (when I wrote the OP) if other people saw the same tendency. I HAVE played with some great ex-military characters who were either well-played straight guys, or were the odd-ball who didn't ever fit in anyhow, but their players took pains to make sure their portrayal of that aspect was consistent and organic; They unfortunately are obvious because they are the exception to the rule (in my experience). YOUR experience may varry, which is why I posed the question in the first place:

If you're a "generic" military person suddenly in the shadows (as opposed to a merc unit), how do you deal with the (dramatic) changes? The people I am talking about (the cop-outs) just said "I'm ex-military, so I can shoot guns good and blow drek up" as a way to justify very high skill levels in firearms, heavy weapons and demolitions (without any ranks in any military knowledges, leadership or anthing similar).

[Stahlseele]

Military Types are in demand, because everybody is going to need some good knowhow.
Know how to blow it up.
Know hop to not get it blown up.
Know how to kill.
Know how to not be killed.
Know people who might be able to get some gear.
Know people who might WANT to get some gear.

Also, my favourite Character ever(even if i only got to play him half a dozend times) was an ex military Troll.
Cheated with his age to get in young. Learned a very important lesson:"Dwarves hurt when angry"
Learned a bit how to control himself. How to follow orders. How to decide WHICH orders to follow.
Some dirty sanches fighting tricks. Some basic tactics. Some basic shooting stuff. Some basic common sense.
Some basic etiquette. Yes, he went through Basic training twice, how did you guess?
Why twice you ask? Once like everybody else, twice because he deserved it.