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> Armor Encumbrance, Seems silly a Bod 3 Char can't wear an Armor Jacket
EnlitenedDespot
post Jun 17 2009, 08:40 AM
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I'm sorry if I'm confused, but let me quote I guess:

"If either of a character's armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a -1 modifier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof) that his Body is exceeded" (149).

This is from the Shadowrun 4th Ed Corebook.

Just wondering, does that mean a char with Body 3 would suffer a -1 to Agility and Reaction if he wore an Armor Jacket (8/6) because of the 8 exceeding 3 x 2 = 6?

That sure does limit armor options for those not willing to sack up on the Body score (*cough* my mage most likely, *cough*).
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crizh
post Jun 17 2009, 08:44 AM
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Bear in mind that it's a penalty rather than an outright ban.

This is exactly why real cops sometimes don't wear their vest, it's a pain in the tits.

Right up until you get shot and then you have the damn thing welded to your chest and you suck it up and suffer the penalties.

It's not like a Mage has much use for AGL or REA anyway....
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Dakka Dakka
post Jun 17 2009, 09:09 AM
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I admit that heavy armor should encumber the wearer, the rules as they are however make SWAT teams beetles lying on their backs unless they have a body of 7. Intelligent stacking of different armor items on the other hand provides similar protection with less encumbrance at a lower price. I wonder why armor manufacturers don't build their top of the line items like that?

The option to only calculate encumbrance if more than one item is worn does away with some of the problems. Technically however armor and helmet are two items.

Mages don't need AGI much that's right but REA is a lifesaver. It allows the mage to act before he is geeked by the opposition and prvides defense if he is shot at. It also helps against ambushes. (Too bad increase reflexes only augments Initiative and not REA)
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Ard3
post Jun 17 2009, 09:34 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 17 2009, 12:09 PM) *
*snip*make SWAT teams beetles lying on their backs unless they have a body of 7. *snip*


Well there is the rule for custom fitted armor allowing body*3 before encumberance. I think that pretty much every SWAT member would have it.
With this they would only need body of 4 for the example SWAT armor (12/10). Body of 4 is reasonable for someone in job as physically demanding as a SWAT team.
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Dakka Dakka
post Jun 17 2009, 09:50 AM
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Maybe SWAT Teams get custom fitted armor but SWAt armor with helmet (who wouldn't wear a helmet to a gunfight) is 14/12. So with a body of 4 the officer is still at -1, not bad but still a disadvantage. Add a shield and he is not very agile anymore

Remember BOD does not so much represent represent fitness but resistance to damage and diseases. So 3 or 4 BOD should be enough for most SWAT Team members.
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EnlitenedDespot
post Jun 17 2009, 10:02 AM
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I like the idea of only doing encumberance if the character is stacking armor, although I'm guessing this would be a house rule? Also, would wearing an Armor Vest (6/4) and a Lined Coat (6/4) put me at a -3 to AGI and REA if I had a Body of 3?

Lastly, the option of fitted armor for Body*3 is that in the corebook?

Sorry for all the questions, curiosity is getting the best of me and you all are far more knowledgeable than me about the system.
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Dakka Dakka
post Jun 17 2009, 10:07 AM
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QUOTE (EnlitenedDespot @ Jun 17 2009, 12:02 PM) *
I like the idea of only doing encumberance if the character is stacking armor, although I'm guessing this would be a house rule? Also, would wearing an Armor Vest (6/4) and a Lined Coat (6/4) put me at a -3 to AGI and REA if I had a Body of 3?
No you would be at -4 because the impact armor also exceeds your BOD*2. You are encumbered as someone wearing 12/8 but you can only add 6/4 to your resistance tests. Not something i would advise to wear.

QUOTE
Lastly, the option of fitted armor for Body*3 is that in the corebook?
Both optional rules are in Arsenal.
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Kerenshara
post Jun 17 2009, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 17 2009, 05:50 AM) *
Remember BOD does not so much represent represent fitness but resistance to damage and diseases. So 3 or 4 BOD should be enough for most SWAT Team members.

Hmmm, I don't know about that. Having worked with members of a SWAT team at one point, and taking BOD to be an abstract (this IS Shadowrun, after all) measure of fitness AND build, I would say that as a MINIMUM it would have to be a 4 just to handle most of the physical demands and get on the team, unless you might happen to be someplace rural like, say... Southwest Virginia. Some place like LA or NY or 6th World Seatle, where those units see enough action to be full-time squads and not "on-call" part-time volunteers, part of the job descripton is going to be MAINTAINING that peak near-military fitness.

But when it comes right down to it, I DO think the rules are about right. Keep in mind, REA includes things like peripherall vision while AGI includes balance and smoothness of motion. Why don't you think normal officers wear all the supplemental protective gear? Because it's hot and heavy as drek? Nope: it's because of how badly it compromises your flexibility, balance, fields of vision, center of gravity AND because it's hot and heavy as drek. And what is the first thing a soldier or officer does when thet aren't in the heightened threat environment any more? Take off the helmet and supplemental pieces of kit while they're standing around, even if they are leaving on the primary components. The above example of 12/14 protection: that officer is ABSOLUTELY going to be slowed down and unbalanced by all that armor, unless she has the build of a top professional wressler AND the health and fitness of a Navy S.E.A.L., because it's massively extensive, not to mention binding, likely to catch on things, makes it hard to bend in certain ways and not really designed to help with a silent entry. If you really need that level of protection in SR, go with the (sealed and/or powered) military armors that offer that level of protection and IIRC also default to BODx3 for the calculation because they MUST be custom fit and are DESIGNED to allow for proper movement, and even THEN require a BOD 4 or higher to not be severely penalized.

And keep in mind, when your adjusted AGI and REA are both 7, that's off the charts. Having that much armor on will almost FORCE you operate at normal human levels by making you expend the effort to overcome it's limitations, as opposed to fluid and effortless motion.
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paws2sky
post Jun 17 2009, 02:03 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 17 2009, 05:50 AM) *
Maybe SWAT Teams get custom fitted armor but SWAt armor with helmet (who wouldn't wear a helmet to a gunfight) is 14/12. So with a body of 4 the officer is still at -1, not bad but still a disadvantage. Add a shield and he is not very agile anymore


As I recall, helmets don't count toward your encumbrance.

-paws
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Stahlseele
post Jun 17 2009, 02:09 PM
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That's one of the changes i actually like about SR4 compared to SR3.
It let's Dwarves, Orks and especially Trolls wear/carry more Armor than the whimpy Humans and Elves.
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Cray74
post Jun 17 2009, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (EnlitenedDespot @ Jun 17 2009, 04:40 AM) *
Just wondering, does that mean a char with Body 3 would suffer a -1 to Agility and Reaction if he wore an Armor Jacket (8/6) because of the 8 exceeding 3 x 2 = 6?

That sure does limit armor options for those not willing to sack up on the Body score (*cough* my mage most likely, *cough*).


Yes. It means the jacket is bulky enough to slightly hinder movement, or heavy enough to wear down your mage.

The system for armor encumberance has its loopholes (e.g., some armor stacks easily, and some medium armors like jackets impose penalties for average folks) but, IMO, it's at about the right level for dissuading Average Joes from wearing a ton of armor.
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Dakka Dakka
post Jun 17 2009, 02:16 PM
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@paws2sky: They do. the only difference is that they do not count as stacked armor which means that they add their rating to the primary armor's rating instead of just wearing the user down. Encumbrance on the other hand is calculated with the sum of all worn armor items.

@Kerenshara: Don't forget allowing custom fitted armor is an optional rule. By strandard RAW all armor but MilSpec only get BOD*2. So it is possible that not everyone can benefit from this rule.

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Kerenshara
post Jun 17 2009, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 17 2009, 10:16 AM) *
@Kerenshara: Don't forget allowing custom fitted armor is an optional rule. By strandard RAW all armor but MilSpec only get BOD*2. So it is possible that not everyone can benefit from this rule.

*scratches head*

I thought that's what I said? Go straight to military armor? Did I screw up again and not write what I meant?
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Inncubi
post Jun 17 2009, 02:21 PM
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A bit on SWAT and SF physical fitness. I'll tackle the armour issue a bit further down.

QUOTE
Hmmm, I don't know about that. Having worked with members of a SWAT team at one point, and taking BOD to be an abstract (this IS Shadowrun, after all) measure of fitness AND build, I would say that as a MINIMUM it would have to be a 4 just to handle most of the physical demands and get on the team, unless you might happen to be someplace rural like, say... Southwest Virginia. Some place like LA or NY or 6th World Seatle, where those units see enough action to be full-time squads and not "on-call" part-time volunteers, part of the job descripton is going to be MAINTAINING that peak near-military fitness.


Yes these guys are on very good physical condition. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They workout very frequently on resistance, more than volume or raw physical strength, and depending on their job it varies. Ranger's programs concentrate on heavy cardio, mainly for marching, SEAL programs include swimming every time. As much as I admire their condition I would hesitate to put them into the body 5 mark on average . The regular SF trooper, who is not a training junkie is going to have body 4 -higher than an untrained human, whose body should be 2, not 3, unless he works out at least 3 days a week-. The team's athlete should have a 5, the battalion's best runner who also goes to represent it in military Olympics has a 6. This is because even in the military, not everyone is a talented athlete-. I have completed SF training workouts, and trust me I'm not in peak physical condition. Not that they're easy. They demand a lot of time, preparation, discipline and concentration. I may not have gotten the highest marks at the academy, but I could have passed. And I'm 6'1 and weigh 140lbs. If oyu ask me I'd place my body at a solid 3.... after some 3 months of strenuous workout I'd get a 4.

This takes me to the next point.

They compensate these "low" attribute scores with skills: they probably do have athletics group at 4 with specialization on their chosen area of expertise, and 'ware: synthacardium is a must for almost any SF guy, and probably also for SWAT teams. This increases significantly their efficiency, and results in about 2 or 3 auto successes on their rolls. And that's where they shine. Regular workouts can be overcome easily with these auto successes, as a threshold 3 training program is tough on you, I assure you. A regular trooper will be able to stay in the team with these stats.


About the armour bit:

QUOTE
Why don't you think normal officers wear all the supplemental protective gear? Because it's hot and heavy as drek? Nope: it's because of how badly it compromises your flexibility, balance, fields of vision, center of gravity AND because it's hot and heavy as drek. And what is the first thing a soldier or officer does when thet aren't in the heightened threat environment any more? Take off the helmet and supplemental pieces of kit while they're standing around, even if they are leaving on the primary components. The above example of 12/14 protection: that officer is ABSOLUTELY going to be slowed down and unbalanced by all that armor, unless she has the build of a top professional wressler AND the health and fitness of a Navy S.E.A.L., because it's massively extensive, not to mention binding, likely to catch on things, makes it hard to bend in certain ways and not really designed to help with a silent entry. If you really need that level of protection in SR, go with the (sealed and/or powered) military armors that offer that level of protection and IIRC also default to BODx3 for the calculation because they MUST be custom fit and are DESIGNED to allow for proper movement, and even THEN require a BOD 4 or higher to not be severely penalized.


True. Except I don't like powered military armours in the character's hands. But that's not the issue here.
Comfort is essential with these armours, and its true that characters wearing even form-fitting (my group calls them Pajamas, because they never take them off) you'll be uncomfortable. You are obstructed in everyday activities, or you are sweating too much, or it itches and you can't reach adequately. Hell, some leather jackets I use are uncomfortable like that, hence I will /not/ use them on sunny days even if I /love/ them. The point about armour, is, mainly, role play it adequately instead on concentrating on the ruels. If you say to the 24/7 armour using character he's bending the rules he'll feel nerfed. you can accomplish the same with a nice description of how he itches and can't reach the place, how he's starting to stink because he sweats like a pig, and people sense it, how his back is straining and feeling sore, how he cannot find a comfortable chair anywhere anymore. The player will understand why armours aren't used by everyone all the time, and will actually be willing to spend money on a second suit of armour -even if less effective- but that will, in a descriptive way, feel more comfortable to him.
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Cray74
post Jun 17 2009, 02:24 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 17 2009, 10:16 AM) *
@Kerenshara: Don't forget allowing custom fitted armor is an optional rule. By strandard RAW all armor but MilSpec only get BOD*2. So it is possible that not everyone can benefit from this rule.


I meant to ask. What page of Arsenal is that on?
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Dakka Dakka
post Jun 17 2009, 02:38 PM
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The Problem with BOD as a measure of fitness is that all athletics tests use STR or AGI. Only to determine if someone can keep running despite feeling the pain of overexertion take BOD into account. But again it is BOD+Hits on the appropriate roll. Here I think that SWAT Teams and SF guys can do a lot with their skill and fitness. Whether they can shake off a flu particularly easily is not the issue in my opinion.

@Kerenshara: I may just as well have overread your proposal to forgo SWAT armor and go MilSpec right away for the high threat response teams. My point was, if someone can get their hands on SWAT armor it is not custom fitted by RAW whether LEOs get that is up to the GM. Also this custom fitting opens the door for a lot of silly rule details: Can FFBA benefit? How about PPP? What happens if you carry a shield in additon to your custom fitted armor.

@Cray74: It's on page 44.
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Kerenshara
post Jun 17 2009, 02:53 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 17 2009, 10:38 AM) *
The Problem with BOD as a measure of fitness is that all athletics tests use STR or AGI. Only to determine if someone can keep running despite feeling the pain of overexertion take BOD into account. But again it is BOD+Hits on the appropriate roll. Here I think that SWAT Teams and SF guys can do a lot with their skill and fitness. Whether they can shake off a flu particularly easily is not the issue in my opinion.

STR measures muscular efficiency and power - the things needed for tasks like swimming, jumping and climbing. Having a very high level of fitness (which includes endurance) would allow you to keep swimming for long periods or climbing or whatever, but without the supporting STR stat, you can't achieve those bursts of power needed to exceed the base line - clear the higher fence, swim faster or against the current, or actually make good time up that un-knotted rope. The same goes for AGI, where being fit does not guarantee fluidity or precision of motion, merely that you can keep it up with a lot less "effort". The statistics have to be viewed as a whole to give a complete picture of a character: High strength and low fitness is the mug who works out to impress women at the gym but eats TwinkiesTM at home while vegging in front of the idiot box. On the other hand, the marathon runner may not have much STR, even being below average, and clumsy as the day is long, but the can run SLOWLY forever as opposed to sprinting. The final number, REA, is a measure of a lot of nebulous things, but essentially measures how well the brain can drive the body in time-critical situations. That's why INI is (REA + INT) because it's the ability to size up a situation intuitively and then drive the body to adapt instantaneously. Now, if I were re-designing ShadowRun (again) I would have split BOD into BLD (build) and FIT (fitness) but that's just me.

QUOTE
@Kerenshara: I may just as well have overread your proposal to forgo SWAT armor and go MilSpec right away for the high threat response teams. My point was, if someone can get their hands on SWAT armor it is not custom fitted by RAW whether LEOs get that is up to the GM.

Ah! Ok, I missed that point, and it's a good one. You'd need a highly skilled Armorer to re-fit the armor to you after you got it.

QUOTE
Also this custom fitting opens the door for a lot of silly rule details: Can FFBA benefit? How about PPP? What happens if you carry a shield in additon to your custom fitted armor.

By definition, FFBA is ALREADY form fitting AND has its own custom rule. How do you "fit" things that strap on or are held? Sorry, I know you're trying to give examples of where things might start to unravel, but those just seem common sense (*gasp!* In Shadowrun?!) to me - and probably to you which is why you brought them up in the first place.
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DireRadiant
post Jun 17 2009, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE (EnlitenedDespot @ Jun 17 2009, 03:40 AM) *
That sure does limit armor options for those not willing to sack up on the Body score (*cough* my mage most likely, *cough*).


If you're not awakened you can wear as much armor as you like without penalty, if you are awakened no armor for you! (Remind anyone of another RPG?)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 17 2009, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 17 2009, 09:36 AM) *
If you're not awakened you can wear as much armor as you like without penalty, if you are awakened no armor for you! (Remind anyone of another RPG?)



Somewhat oversimplified... My Troll Magician can wear all the armor he desires and then some...
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Kerenshara
post Jun 17 2009, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 17 2009, 11:36 AM) *
If you're not awakened you can wear as much armor as you like without penalty, if you are awakened no armor for you! (Remind anyone of another RPG?)

The dreaded Macho Women With Guns, perhaps?

Yes, "running in high heels" IS a skill.
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HappyDaze
post Jun 17 2009, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE
higher than an untrained human, whose body should be 2, not 3

The game rules do not agree with you. Body 3 is average for humans. If you're basing your idea of what should be average on the stereotyped suburban couch potato, then you're slanting your view from the start.
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EnlitenedDespot
post Jun 17 2009, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 17 2009, 08:36 AM) *
If you're not awakened you can wear as much armor as you like without penalty, if you are awakened no armor for you! (Remind anyone of another RPG?)


Ha, I actually laughed at that one (guessing you're referencing D&D?).
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Omenowl
post Jun 17 2009, 09:51 PM
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I would put strength and body at 2 rather than 3 especially in modern society let alone a matrix driven society where exercise is more the exception rather than the norm. That said there is bioware, cyberware and magic that can increase your body stat. Either sustain or use a focus to get the spell sustained for said mage.
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Dakka Dakka
post Jun 17 2009, 10:30 PM
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3 is average for humans - of 2070. This already includes differences in habits compared to today. 6 or 7 is the maximum for humans. This value can (only) be achieved with the improved training methods of the seventies.

@D&D/mundane=infinite armor, awakened=no armor: This is not entirely true. Try swimming in heavy armor and shield in the aforementioned system. And look at bards and divine casters.
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Omenowl
post Jun 17 2009, 11:53 PM
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3 is for a human in good physical condition. If you include dimorphism you will suddenly find 2s are not unusual along with bad lifestyles, age, etc. For opposition 3 would be standard or average.
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