I'm sorry if I'm confused, but let me quote I guess:

"If either of a character's armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a -1 modifier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof) that his Body is exceeded" (149).

This is from the Shadowrun 4th Ed Corebook.

Just wondering, does that mean a char with Body 3 would suffer a -1 to Agility and Reaction if he wore an Armor Jacket (8/6) because of the 8 exceeding 3 x 2 = 6?

That sure does limit armor options for those not willing to sack up on the Body score (*cough* my mage most likely, *cough*).

Bear in mind that it's a penalty rather than an outright ban.

This is exactly why real cops sometimes don't wear their vest, it's a pain in the tits.

Right up until you get shot and then you have the damn thing welded to your chest and you suck it up and suffer the penalties.

It's not like a Mage has much use for AGL or REA anyway....

I admit that heavy armor should encumber the wearer, the rules as they are however make SWAT teams beetles lying on their backs unless they have a body of 7. Intelligent stacking of different armor items on the other hand provides similar protection with less encumbrance at a lower price. I wonder why armor manufacturers don't build their top of the line items like that?

The option to only calculate encumbrance if more than one item is worn does away with some of the problems. Technically however armor and helmet are two items.

Mages don't need AGI much that's right but REA is a lifesaver. It allows the mage to act before he is geeked by the opposition and prvides defense if he is shot at. It also helps against ambushes. (Too bad increase reflexes only augments Initiative and not REA)

Well there is the rule for custom fitted armor allowing body*3 before encumberance. I think that pretty much every SWAT member would have it.
With this they would only need body of 4 for the example SWAT armor (12/10). Body of 4 is reasonable for someone in job as physically demanding as a SWAT team.

Maybe SWAT Teams get custom fitted armor but SWAt armor with helmet (who wouldn't wear a helmet to a gunfight) is 14/12. So with a body of 4 the officer is still at -1, not bad but still a disadvantage. Add a shield and he is not very agile anymore

Remember BOD does not so much represent represent fitness but resistance to damage and diseases. So 3 or 4 BOD should be enough for most SWAT Team members.

I like the idea of only doing encumberance if the character is stacking armor, although I'm guessing this would be a house rule? Also, would wearing an Armor Vest (6/4) and a Lined Coat (6/4) put me at a -3 to AGI and REA if I had a Body of 3?

Lastly, the option of fitted armor for Body*3 is that in the corebook?

Sorry for all the questions, curiosity is getting the best of me and you all are far more knowledgeable than me about the system.

No you would be at -4 because the impact armor also exceeds your BOD*2. You are encumbered as someone wearing 12/8 but you can only add 6/4 to your resistance tests. Not something i would advise to wear.

Both optional rules are in Arsenal.

Hmmm, I don't know about that. Having worked with members of a SWAT team at one point, and taking BOD to be an abstract (this IS Shadowrun, after all) measure of fitness AND build, I would say that as a MINIMUM it would have to be a 4 just to handle most of the physical demands and get on the team, unless you might happen to be someplace rural like, say... Southwest Virginia. Some place like LA or NY or 6^th World Seatle, where those units see enough action to be full-time squads and not "on-call" part-time volunteers, part of the job descripton is going to be MAINTAINING that peak near-military fitness.

But when it comes right down to it, I DO think the rules are about right. Keep in mind, REA includes things like peripherall vision while AGI includes balance and smoothness of motion. Why don't you think normal officers wear all the supplemental protective gear? Because it's hot and heavy as drek? Nope: it's because of how badly it compromises your flexibility, balance, fields of vision, center of gravity AND because it's hot and heavy as drek. And what is the first thing a soldier or officer does when thet aren't in the heightened threat environment any more? Take off the helmet and supplemental pieces of kit while they're standing around, even if they are leaving on the primary components. The above example of 12/14 protection: that officer is ABSOLUTELY going to be slowed down and unbalanced by all that armor, unless she has the build of a top professional wressler AND the health and fitness of a Navy S.E.A.L., because it's massively extensive, not to mention binding, likely to catch on things, makes it hard to bend in certain ways and not really designed to help with a silent entry. If you really need that level of protection in SR, go with the (sealed and/or powered) military armors that offer that level of protection and IIRC also default to BODx3 for the calculation because they MUST be custom fit and are DESIGNED to allow for proper movement, and even THEN require a BOD 4 or higher to not be severely penalized.

And keep in mind, when your adjusted AGI and REA are both 7, that's off the charts. Having that much armor on will almost FORCE you operate at normal human levels by making you expend the effort to overcome it's limitations, as opposed to fluid and effortless motion.

As I recall, helmets don't count toward your encumbrance.

-paws

That's one of the changes i actually like about SR4 compared to SR3.
It let's Dwarves, Orks and especially Trolls wear/carry more Armor than the whimpy Humans and Elves.

Yes. It means the jacket is bulky enough to slightly hinder movement, or heavy enough to wear down your mage.

The system for armor encumberance has its loopholes (e.g., some armor stacks easily, and some medium armors like jackets impose penalties for average folks) but, IMO, it's at about the right level for dissuading Average Joes from wearing a ton of armor.

@paws2sky: They do. the only difference is that they do not count as stacked armor which means that they add their rating to the primary armor's rating instead of just wearing the user down. Encumbrance on the other hand is calculated with the sum of all worn armor items.

@Kerenshara: Don't forget allowing custom fitted armor is an optional rule. By strandard RAW all armor but MilSpec only get BOD*2. So it is possible that not everyone can benefit from this rule.

*scratches head*

I thought that's what I said? Go straight to military armor? Did I screw up again and not write what I meant?

A bit on SWAT and SF physical fitness. I'll tackle the armour issue a bit further down.



Yes these guys are on very good physical condition. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They workout very frequently on resistance, more than volume or raw physical strength, and depending on their job it varies. Ranger's programs concentrate on heavy cardio, mainly for marching, SEAL programs include swimming every time. As much as I admire their condition I would hesitate to put them into the body 5 mark on average . The regular SF trooper, who is not a training junkie is going to have body 4 -higher than an untrained human, whose body should be 2, not 3, unless he works out at least 3 days a week-. The team's athlete should have a 5, the battalion's best runner who also goes to represent it in military Olympics has a 6. This is because even in the military, not everyone is a talented athlete-. I have completed SF training workouts, and trust me I'm not in peak physical condition. Not that they're easy. They demand a lot of time, preparation, discipline and concentration. I may not have gotten the highest marks at the academy, but I could have passed. And I'm 6'1 and weigh 140lbs. If oyu ask me I'd place my body at a solid 3.... after some 3 months of strenuous workout I'd get a 4.

This takes me to the next point.

They compensate these "low" attribute scores with skills: they probably do have athletics group at 4 with specialization on their chosen area of expertise, and 'ware: synthacardium is a must for almost any SF guy, and probably also for SWAT teams. This increases significantly their efficiency, and results in about 2 or 3 auto successes on their rolls. And that's where they shine. Regular workouts can be overcome easily with these auto successes, as a threshold 3 training program is tough on you, I assure you. A regular trooper will be able to stay in the team with these stats.


About the armour bit:



True. Except I don't like powered military armours in the character's hands. But that's not the issue here.
Comfort is essential with these armours, and its true that characters wearing even form-fitting (my group calls them Pajamas, because they never take them off) you'll be uncomfortable. You are obstructed in everyday activities, or you are sweating too much, or it itches and you can't reach adequately. Hell, some leather jackets I use are uncomfortable like that, hence I will /not/ use them on sunny days even if I /love/ them. The point about armour, is, mainly, role play it adequately instead on concentrating on the ruels. If you say to the 24/7 armour using character he's bending the rules he'll feel nerfed. you can accomplish the same with a nice description of how he itches and can't reach the place, how he's starting to stink because he sweats like a pig, and people sense it, how his back is straining and feeling sore, how he cannot find a comfortable chair anywhere anymore. The player will understand why armours aren't used by everyone all the time, and will actually be willing to spend money on a second suit of armour -even if less effective- but that will, in a descriptive way, feel more comfortable to him.

I meant to ask. What page of Arsenal is that on?

The Problem with BOD as a measure of fitness is that all athletics tests use STR or AGI. Only to determine if someone can keep running despite feeling the pain of overexertion take BOD into account. But again it is BOD+Hits on the appropriate roll. Here I think that SWAT Teams and SF guys can do a lot with their skill and fitness. Whether they can shake off a flu particularly easily is not the issue in my opinion.

@Kerenshara: I may just as well have overread your proposal to forgo SWAT armor and go MilSpec right away for the high threat response teams. My point was, if someone can get their hands on SWAT armor it is not custom fitted by RAW whether LEOs get that is up to the GM. Also this custom fitting opens the door for a lot of silly rule details: Can FFBA benefit? How about PPP? What happens if you carry a shield in additon to your custom fitted armor.

@Cray74: It's on page 44.

STR measures muscular efficiency and power - the things needed for tasks like swimming, jumping and climbing. Having a very high level of fitness (which includes endurance) would allow you to keep swimming for long periods or climbing or whatever, but without the supporting STR stat, you can't achieve those bursts of power needed to exceed the base line - clear the higher fence, swim faster or against the current, or actually make good time up that un-knotted rope. The same goes for AGI, where being fit does not guarantee fluidity or precision of motion, merely that you can keep it up with a lot less "effort". The statistics have to be viewed as a whole to give a complete picture of a character: High strength and low fitness is the mug who works out to impress women at the gym but eats Twinkies^TM at home while vegging in front of the idiot box. On the other hand, the marathon runner may not have much STR, even being below average, and clumsy as the day is long, but the can run SLOWLY forever as opposed to sprinting. The final number, REA, is a measure of a lot of nebulous things, but essentially measures how well the brain can drive the body in time-critical situations. That's why INI is (REA + INT) because it's the ability to size up a situation intuitively and then drive the body to adapt instantaneously. Now, if I were re-designing ShadowRun (again) I would have split BOD into BLD (build) and FIT (fitness) but that's just me.


Ah! Ok, I missed that point, and it's a good one. You'd need a highly skilled Armorer to re-fit the armor to you after you got it.


By definition, FFBA is ALREADY form fitting AND has its own custom rule. How do you "fit" things that strap on or are held? Sorry, I know you're trying to give examples of where things might start to unravel, but those just seem common sense (*gasp!* In Shadowrun?!) to me - and probably to you which is why you brought them up in the first place.

If you're not awakened you can wear as much armor as you like without penalty, if you are awakened no armor for you! (Remind anyone of another RPG?)

Somewhat oversimplified... My Troll Magician can wear all the armor he desires and then some...

The dreaded Macho Women With Guns, perhaps?

Yes, "running in high heels" IS a skill.

The game rules do not agree with you. Body 3 is average for humans. If you're basing your idea of what should be average on the stereotyped suburban couch potato, then you're slanting your view from the start.

Ha, I actually laughed at that one (guessing you're referencing D&D?).

I would put strength and body at 2 rather than 3 especially in modern society let alone a matrix driven society where exercise is more the exception rather than the norm. That said there is bioware, cyberware and magic that can increase your body stat. Either sustain or use a focus to get the spell sustained for said mage.

3 is average for humans - of 2070. This already includes differences in habits compared to today. 6 or 7 is the maximum for humans. This value can (only) be achieved with the improved training methods of the seventies.

@D&D/mundane=infinite armor, awakened=no armor: This is not entirely true. Try swimming in heavy armor and shield in the aforementioned system. And look at bards and divine casters.

3 is for a human in good physical condition. If you include dimorphism you will suddenly find 2s are not unusual along with bad lifestyles, age, etc. For opposition 3 would be standard or average.

I don't mean to natter, but the system is pretty clear. The average for a human in average physical shape is a 3. If we go by standard definitions of "average" that would mean that someplace around two thirds of all humans fall into that group. Something like 15% the total are either 2 (poor) or 4 (above average). Less than 10% of the total comprise both 1 (weak) and 5 (superior). Achieving a 6 is in the "1 percenters" and a 7 is literally "off the chart".

If you have a character who is in a job where general fitness is an important requirement, and regular exercise is the norm, it is not unreasonable to find the majority of those individuals as a 4. Also remember those numbers are for Homo Sapiens Sapiens globally, and that in the shadows, it's not uncommon to regularly find things one standard deviation out of the norm.

Security Guard: Normal People = 3
Front Line Military: Above Average = 4
Crack Units: Superior = 5

You will probably never find a group that as a whole is 6's across the board (without artificial enhancement), but the "Best of the Best" (think U.S. Navy S.E.A.L.s) will have possibly one stat in the one precent bracket.

Now, your average sprawl squatter gets no regular aerobic exercise, has a terrible diet and no meaningful modern health care. It would not be unusual for such an individual to have stats in the 2's. Poor basic education means the mind is not trained to process, retain or creatively manipulate concepts facts and ideas, which means often the mental stats will be low to match.

A stat of 1 essentially represents someody who is in fact in some way crippled by modern standards. Weak bones, compromised immune system, muscular deformity, mental retardation, brain damage, r the results of severe forms of abuse that damage the psyche.

And that idea applies to any given race: their minimums and maximums are diferent, but their SPREADS are (mostly) identical, just shifted numerically to one side. Compared to Homo Sapiens Sapiens, Homo Sapien Robustus is tougher, larger, and stronger, but their "mental" attributes seem to cap out lower, not suggesting that their race is less inteligent, but simply less capable of achieving the same extreme heights as would otherwise be the case. But compared to one another, an average Robustus is still average, despite putting a Sapiens to shame for physical prowes.

That's my take based on the RAW, fluff and a healthy dose of common sense.

Hey, I prefer how the earlier editions did it. i like the weight to encumbrance method. Sure then the puny human could wear good armor, but the puny human wasn't carrying much gear overall. Its not bad in 4e, just prefer 2e. Now concealability in 4e just sucks in comparison to 1-3e.