Vampires and Feeding, The legal kind Options

[Starmage21]

Well, some nations/corps recognize Vampires (HMHVV Infected) as legal citizens, so how do you suppose they deal with the essence requirements of feeding? Does Vampire A just show up at the closest prison and visit death row once every 6(ish) months?

Opinions and thoughts?


yes im bored.

[Zaranthan]

IIRC, critters have essence, too. It's not illegal to butcher animals in most countries.

[Kerenshara]

IIRC, critters have essence, too. It's not illegal to butcher animals in most countries.

Unfortunately, you can't use an animal. I had to go back and double check myself...

P.298, SR4A: Essence Loss

Critters with Essence Loss have no actual Essence of their own and must drain Essence from others in order to survive. Beings with Essence Loss lose 1 point of Essence every lunar cycle (1 month). As Essence decreases, Magic may also be affected (see p. 68).
If a creature is reduced to 0 Essence, it will die in (Body + Willpower) days if it does not replenish itself. A creature in this state is extremely dangerous…quot;a starved predator that hunts for fresh Essence with mindless ferocity.


P.294, SR4A: Essence Drain

Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Touch • Duration: Permanent

The Essence Drain power allows a being to drain the Essence from another character, adding drained Essence to the critter’s own. Essence Drain can only target physical sentient beings (characters and nonastral critters with the Sentience power).


Emphasis mine.

Most governments that recognize the infected as full citizens would probably recognize the "sentient" critters as well, and that would make them off limits.

[Chibu]

So, the question then still is: How then do they survive, being a legal entity, without breaking the law (i.e. Killing)?

[suppenhuhn]

Probably they pay squatters or junkies to feed on them.
There are always enough desperate people if the price is right.

[Kerenshara]

So, the question then still is: How then do they survive, being a legal entity, without breaking the law (i.e. Killing)?

Well, technically it's not "killing" until they drain the last ESS point...

But I don't know. I assumed they had to do it on the sly. And remember, if you don't have a SiN but the Vampire does (meaning they're a citizen and you're NOT), the government won't say a word because YOU don't "officially" exist, and have no "rights" that they need to protect - not even the fundamental right to your own life.

Life on the street's ugly without a SiN.

[Jaid]

Well, some nations/corps recognize Vampires (HMHVV Infected) as legal citizens, so how do you suppose they deal with the essence requirements of feeding? Does Vampire A just show up at the closest prison and visit death row once every 6(ish) months?

Opinions and thoughts?


yes im bored.

which nations and corps are those, specifically? i've been trying to figure out which ones allow vampires to gain citizenship, and i can't for the life of me figure it out.

[Machine_From_God]

Good question; perhaps it is just tactfully not raised? And objecting to granting vampire's rights probably gets you cast as a racist persecuting the poor, poor vampire...who eats people's souls apparently. Well, a vampire could always hunt ghouls in the less enlightened parts of the world, or sentient critters that don't have similar rights.

[Tiger Eyes]

While some nations and corps recognize Ghouls, I'm trying to think of one that recognizes vampires. Asamando is the only one coming to mind where it'd be possible (although it's not specified).

[Jaid]

While some nations and corps recognize Ghouls, I'm trying to think of one that recognizes vampires. Asamando is the only one coming to mind where it'd be possible (although it's not specified).

yeah, that's basically what i was thinking. i'm just trying to figure out whether or not we're discussing something that's canon, or something that the OP read about a specific person's campaign setting (or misread elsewhere) and such...

[Kerenshara]

yeah, that's basically what i was thinking. i'm just trying to figure out whether or not we're discussing something that's canon, or something that the OP read about a specific person's campaign setting (or misread elsewhere) and such...

Canon or not, it's a good point I haven't seen (yet) discussed in the RAW. I mean, as written, you're a full SiNner, so you're a citizen. You get bitten, drained and turn. You still have a SiN. That means you're still a citizen with all the rights and blah blah blah. So by extension, unless there was a law STRIPPING you when you get infected, they must by definition recognize SOME of the infected.

[Tiger Eyes]

Canon or not, it's a good point I haven't seen (yet) discussed in the RAW. I mean, as written, you're a full SiNner, so you're a citizen. You get bitten, drained and turn. You still have a SiN. That means you're still a citizen with all the rights and blah blah blah. So by extension, unless there was a law STRIPPING you when you get infected, they must by definition recognize SOME of the infected.

Let's take the UCAS for example, and by that, Seattle. The UCAS allows "many" infected who were previously citizens and became infected to retain their citizenship, but their SIN is automatically transfered to a Criminal SIN and they must agree to 24 hour monitoring. Note that the UCAS and CAS both still pay bounties on the infected. I don't believe vampires are included in that group, but Ghouls, for example, are. Which means that your Criminal SIN flagging you as a Ghoul is also an easy way for any bounty hunter to track you down, shoot you, and collect a bounty. Now the bounty is only 1,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , and it's not "actively" enforced in many areas--but still, would you want to risk that? In the UCAS, there's currently legislation being considered that would strike the bounties for Ghouls and Loup-Garou (but not the other infected). FYI, the bounty on vampires is 6,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

[toturi]

As a vampire, you could presumably pay for services rendered as well as associated healthcare benefits.

For example, if you pay to Essense Drain someone and offer one of the genetech treatments to restore their Essense before they die from it, I do not see why everything would not be legal and aboveboard.

[Zaranthan]

Revitalization therapy for one full point of essence costs $275,000. If you can afford to shell that out every month on top of a meaningful Lifestyle, you don't have to worry about Detective Hardnose knocking on your door.

[Starmage21]

yeah, that's basically what i was thinking. i'm just trying to figure out whether or not we're discussing something that's canon, or something that the OP read about a specific person's campaign setting (or misread elsewhere) and such...

Possible. Let me re-read Runner's Companion again. There might be a hint of a reference there to what I was thinking.

[Machiavelli]

Let's take the UCAS for example, and by that, Seattle. The UCAS allows "many" infected who were previously citizens and became infected to retain their citizenship, but their SIN is automatically transfered to a Criminal SIN and they must agree to 24 hour monitoring. Note that the UCAS and CAS both still pay bounties on the infected. I don't believe vampires are included in that group, but Ghouls, for example, are. Which means that your Criminal SIN flagging you as a Ghoul is also an easy way for any bounty hunter to track you down, shoot you, and collect a bounty. Now the bounty is only 1,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , and it's not "actively" enforced in many areas--but still, would you want to risk that? In the UCAS, there's currently legislation being considered that would strike the bounties for Ghouls and Loup-Garou (but not the other infected). FYI, the bounty on vampires is 6,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

1.500 Nuyen is pretty lame for an ghoul. They are so damn infectious that i think hunting them is not only a pain in the ass, but also as dangerous as hunting aliens in the corresponding movie. One drop of blood, one scratch...finito...you become dual natured and stinky.^^ If i were the government, i would pay more to prevent my citizens beeing infected. In this respect, i don´t understand the relatively high bounty on the vampire.

[TheOOB]

Just because your a citizen doesn't mean the law changes in reguards to assault. You would have to find willing victims, (plenty of people would sell their essence for quick cash, they don't know what they are missing), do it illegally without getting caught, or don't do it to people the law enforcement care about. Sapient critters and SINless come to mind.

[Machiavelli]

And as an Shadowrunner you always have the option to feed on your near-dead enemies. ^^

[The Jake]

I'm sure there are many ways a vampire could survive, all without killing an innocent (e.g. targeting scumbags, clones possibly, etc) but the question was how to do it legally.

And as Tiger Eyes so asiduously pointed out - Vampires are not recognised as having rights by the law. I'm not sure about the criminal SIN bit canonically it has been well established that the Infected were in the same category as the SINless - no rights. Since they have no classification under the legal system and not accorded any rights as a sentient being, there is no legal way for them to feed, since legally they are not recognised.

So, in short, to answer the OP's question - the answer is no.

- J.

[toturi]

Revitalization therapy for one full point of essence costs $275,000. If you can afford to shell that out every month on top of a meaningful Lifestyle, you don't have to worry about Detective Hardnose knocking on your door.

Revitalisation is for repairing the Essense "hole" left by removal of an implant and is very expensive, as you have said.

Cellular Repair costs 15k per week and "even heals Essense loss inflicted with Energy Drain or Essense Drain powers."

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Smartass answer:

Just make friends with a street doc.
When someone goes to him for a cyber-implant, get him to let you essence-drain before the implantation (but after the anesthetic, obviously.)

[Machiavelli]

Do you really think that the drained point of essence is the same as the patient loses during his operation?

[Muspellsheimr]

SINner, Erased, Masking, Contacts in Lone Star.

Problem solved.


Yes, I have a character like that.

[Screaming Eagle]

Legal rights in the UCAS, my thoughts - even if they retain their SIN and rights (which I think they would ) it is unlikely they would be allowed to feed - even on "terminal patients" etc. If someone who needs a heart donor every 6 months shows up due to some degernataive disorder they are not getting a heart, others need it more.

I can invision a sociaty that uses such vampires for their capital punishment needs giving these unfortunates a place, but its not going to be a decendent state of the US or Canada. Cruel and unusual punishment anyone?

Yes the ultra-rich will not be affected by this (the same way the ultra rich today get such things done). But a typical working Joe who gets Vampirism is going to be allowed to say his goodbyes, be quarenteened and made as comfortable as possible for his final months. Yes you have all the rights of every other person, but you do not have the right to cause them grevious bodily harm (which I suspect Essence Drain falls under legaly) even if they consent. You are sick and going to die, you cannot take others with you within these rights.

As for the hypothetical country that "allows them rights" - the right to feed on their fellow citzens etc. - this place will at the least allow consentual essence drain, and this gets tricky cause vampires have powers that make you consent. Perhaps only allowing it in special donor clinics, subjects get paid well - its like blood donation but this they only let you do 4 times max, astral perceivers can establish remianing essence and only allow those above a certain threshold donate and ensure no one has been mesmorized or magically influenced.
Alternatively only the Awakened have rights and mundane people are somewhere between cattle and prospective members of the elite, either way.

[TheOOB]

Still I think centaur hunting is your best bet.