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Starmage21
Well, some nations/corps recognize Vampires (HMHVV Infected) as legal citizens, so how do you suppose they deal with the essence requirements of feeding? Does Vampire A just show up at the closest prison and visit death row once every 6(ish) months?

Opinions and thoughts?


yes im bored.
Zaranthan
IIRC, critters have essence, too. It's not illegal to butcher animals in most countries.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Zaranthan @ Jun 25 2009, 12:09 PM) *
IIRC, critters have essence, too. It's not illegal to butcher animals in most countries.

Unfortunately, you can't use an animal. I had to go back and double check myself...

P.298, SR4A: Essence Loss

Critters with Essence Loss have no actual Essence of their own and must drain Essence from others in order to survive. Beings with Essence Loss lose 1 point of Essence every lunar cycle (1 month). As Essence decreases, Magic may also be affected (see p. 68).
If a creature is reduced to 0 Essence, it will die in (Body + Willpower) days if it does not replenish itself. A creature in this state is extremely dangerous…quot;a starved predator that hunts for fresh Essence with mindless ferocity.


P.294, SR4A: Essence Drain

Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: Touch • Duration: Permanent

The Essence Drain power allows a being to drain the Essence from another character, adding drained Essence to the critter’s own. Essence Drain can only target physical sentient beings (characters and nonastral critters with the Sentience power).


Emphasis mine.

Most governments that recognize the infected as full citizens would probably recognize the "sentient" critters as well, and that would make them off limits.
Chibu
So, the question then still is: How then do they survive, being a legal entity, without breaking the law (i.e. Killing)?
suppenhuhn
Probably they pay squatters or junkies to feed on them.
There are always enough desperate people if the price is right.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Chibu @ Jun 25 2009, 03:05 PM) *
So, the question then still is: How then do they survive, being a legal entity, without breaking the law (i.e. Killing)?

Well, technically it's not "killing" until they drain the last ESS point...

But I don't know. I assumed they had to do it on the sly. And remember, if you don't have a SiN but the Vampire does (meaning they're a citizen and you're NOT), the government won't say a word because YOU don't "officially" exist, and have no "rights" that they need to protect - not even the fundamental right to your own life.


Life on the street's ugly without a SiN.

Jaid
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Jun 25 2009, 01:02 PM) *
Well, some nations/corps recognize Vampires (HMHVV Infected) as legal citizens, so how do you suppose they deal with the essence requirements of feeding? Does Vampire A just show up at the closest prison and visit death row once every 6(ish) months?

Opinions and thoughts?


yes im bored.

which nations and corps are those, specifically? i've been trying to figure out which ones allow vampires to gain citizenship, and i can't for the life of me figure it out.
Machine_From_God
Good question; perhaps it is just tactfully not raised? And objecting to granting vampire's rights probably gets you cast as a racist persecuting the poor, poor vampire...who eats people's souls apparently. Well, a vampire could always hunt ghouls in the less enlightened parts of the world, or sentient critters that don't have similar rights.
Tiger Eyes
While some nations and corps recognize Ghouls, I'm trying to think of one that recognizes vampires. Asamando is the only one coming to mind where it'd be possible (although it's not specified).
Jaid
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Jun 25 2009, 06:15 PM) *
While some nations and corps recognize Ghouls, I'm trying to think of one that recognizes vampires. Asamando is the only one coming to mind where it'd be possible (although it's not specified).

yeah, that's basically what i was thinking. i'm just trying to figure out whether or not we're discussing something that's canon, or something that the OP read about a specific person's campaign setting (or misread elsewhere) and such...
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 25 2009, 06:50 PM) *
yeah, that's basically what i was thinking. i'm just trying to figure out whether or not we're discussing something that's canon, or something that the OP read about a specific person's campaign setting (or misread elsewhere) and such...

Canon or not, it's a good point I haven't seen (yet) discussed in the RAW. I mean, as written, you're a full SiNner, so you're a citizen. You get bitten, drained and turn. You still have a SiN. That means you're still a citizen with all the rights and blah blah blah. So by extension, unless there was a law STRIPPING you when you get infected, they must by definition recognize SOME of the infected.
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jun 25 2009, 08:34 PM) *
Canon or not, it's a good point I haven't seen (yet) discussed in the RAW. I mean, as written, you're a full SiNner, so you're a citizen. You get bitten, drained and turn. You still have a SiN. That means you're still a citizen with all the rights and blah blah blah. So by extension, unless there was a law STRIPPING you when you get infected, they must by definition recognize SOME of the infected.


Let's take the UCAS for example, and by that, Seattle. The UCAS allows "many" infected who were previously citizens and became infected to retain their citizenship, but their SIN is automatically transfered to a Criminal SIN and they must agree to 24 hour monitoring. Note that the UCAS and CAS both still pay bounties on the infected. I don't believe vampires are included in that group, but Ghouls, for example, are. Which means that your Criminal SIN flagging you as a Ghoul is also an easy way for any bounty hunter to track you down, shoot you, and collect a bounty. Now the bounty is only 1,500 nuyen.gif , and it's not "actively" enforced in many areas--but still, would you want to risk that? In the UCAS, there's currently legislation being considered that would strike the bounties for Ghouls and Loup-Garou (but not the other infected). FYI, the bounty on vampires is 6,000 nuyen.gif .
toturi
As a vampire, you could presumably pay for services rendered as well as associated healthcare benefits.

For example, if you pay to Essense Drain someone and offer one of the genetech treatments to restore their Essense before they die from it, I do not see why everything would not be legal and aboveboard.
Zaranthan
Revitalization therapy for one full point of essence costs $275,000. If you can afford to shell that out every month on top of a meaningful Lifestyle, you don't have to worry about Detective Hardnose knocking on your door.
Starmage21
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 25 2009, 06:50 PM) *
yeah, that's basically what i was thinking. i'm just trying to figure out whether or not we're discussing something that's canon, or something that the OP read about a specific person's campaign setting (or misread elsewhere) and such...


Possible. Let me re-read Runner's Companion again. There might be a hint of a reference there to what I was thinking.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Jun 26 2009, 02:02 AM) *
Let's take the UCAS for example, and by that, Seattle. The UCAS allows "many" infected who were previously citizens and became infected to retain their citizenship, but their SIN is automatically transfered to a Criminal SIN and they must agree to 24 hour monitoring. Note that the UCAS and CAS both still pay bounties on the infected. I don't believe vampires are included in that group, but Ghouls, for example, are. Which means that your Criminal SIN flagging you as a Ghoul is also an easy way for any bounty hunter to track you down, shoot you, and collect a bounty. Now the bounty is only 1,500 nuyen.gif , and it's not "actively" enforced in many areas--but still, would you want to risk that? In the UCAS, there's currently legislation being considered that would strike the bounties for Ghouls and Loup-Garou (but not the other infected). FYI, the bounty on vampires is 6,000 nuyen.gif .
1.500 Nuyen is pretty lame for an ghoul. They are so damn infectious that i think hunting them is not only a pain in the ass, but also as dangerous as hunting aliens in the corresponding movie. One drop of blood, one scratch...finito...you become dual natured and stinky.^^ If i were the government, i would pay more to prevent my citizens beeing infected. In this respect, i don´t understand the relatively high bounty on the vampire.
TheOOB
Just because your a citizen doesn't mean the law changes in reguards to assault. You would have to find willing victims, (plenty of people would sell their essence for quick cash, they don't know what they are missing), do it illegally without getting caught, or don't do it to people the law enforcement care about. Sapient critters and SINless come to mind.
Machiavelli
And as an Shadowrunner you always have the option to feed on your near-dead enemies. ^^
The Jake
I'm sure there are many ways a vampire could survive, all without killing an innocent (e.g. targeting scumbags, clones possibly, etc) but the question was how to do it legally.

And as Tiger Eyes so asiduously pointed out - Vampires are not recognised as having rights by the law. I'm not sure about the criminal SIN bit canonically it has been well established that the Infected were in the same category as the SINless - no rights. Since they have no classification under the legal system and not accorded any rights as a sentient being, there is no legal way for them to feed, since legally they are not recognised.

So, in short, to answer the OP's question - the answer is no.

- J.
toturi
QUOTE (Zaranthan @ Jun 26 2009, 09:59 AM) *
Revitalization therapy for one full point of essence costs $275,000. If you can afford to shell that out every month on top of a meaningful Lifestyle, you don't have to worry about Detective Hardnose knocking on your door.

Revitalisation is for repairing the Essense "hole" left by removal of an implant and is very expensive, as you have said.

Cellular Repair costs 15k per week and "even heals Essense loss inflicted with Energy Drain or Essense Drain powers."
Mr. Unpronounceable
Smartass answer:

Just make friends with a street doc.
When someone goes to him for a cyber-implant, get him to let you essence-drain before the implantation (but after the anesthetic, obviously.)
Machiavelli
Do you really think that the drained point of essence is the same as the patient loses during his operation?
Muspellsheimr
SINner, Erased, Masking, Contacts in Lone Star.

Problem solved.


Yes, I have a character like that.
Screaming Eagle
Legal rights in the UCAS, my thoughts - even if they retain their SIN and rights (which I think they would ) it is unlikely they would be allowed to feed - even on "terminal patients" etc. If someone who needs a heart donor every 6 months shows up due to some degernataive disorder they are not getting a heart, others need it more.

I can invision a sociaty that uses such vampires for their capital punishment needs giving these unfortunates a place, but its not going to be a decendent state of the US or Canada. Cruel and unusual punishment anyone?

Yes the ultra-rich will not be affected by this (the same way the ultra rich today get such things done). But a typical working Joe who gets Vampirism is going to be allowed to say his goodbyes, be quarenteened and made as comfortable as possible for his final months. Yes you have all the rights of every other person, but you do not have the right to cause them grevious bodily harm (which I suspect Essence Drain falls under legaly) even if they consent. You are sick and going to die, you cannot take others with you within these rights.

As for the hypothetical country that "allows them rights" - the right to feed on their fellow citzens etc. - this place will at the least allow consentual essence drain, and this gets tricky cause vampires have powers that make you consent. Perhaps only allowing it in special donor clinics, subjects get paid well - its like blood donation but this they only let you do 4 times max, astral perceivers can establish remianing essence and only allow those above a certain threshold donate and ensure no one has been mesmorized or magically influenced.
Alternatively only the Awakened have rights and mundane people are somewhere between cattle and prospective members of the elite, either way.
TheOOB
Still I think centaur hunting is your best bet.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 26 2009, 04:23 PM) *
Do you really think that the drained point of essence is the same as the patient loses during his operation?


Hard to say, really - the devs have been more than a bit inconsistent on that kind of point.

Pre-SR4, you could use an essence-drain essence hole for new cyberware, no problem, there was no way to ever regain it, after all, and bioware used a derived stat from your body attribute.

Pre-Augmentation it was implied that an essence hole is an essence hole regardless of the means used to create it.

Afterward, they were saying that bioware essence loss should be tracked separately from cyberware essence loss (nevermind that that screws up the 1/2 lower cost, and can lead to instant death while still at around 2 essence remaining by the base-book calculations.)


AFAIK, they haven't specified in SR4 or SR4A whether essence-drain means you're supposed to track a third(!) essence-loss category.

And frankly, if they do, then I'll just roll my eyes and ignore it like I did in SR3 when they decided to allow called shots to bypass "all" armor at no additional penalty - despite the rules-as-actually-written clearly stating it was a means of bypassing impact-armor for injection-vector weapons.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable @ Jun 26 2009, 01:11 PM) *
Hard to say, really - the devs have been more than a bit inconsistent on that kind of point.

It is quite clear, actually. Essence Loss due to augmentation, that has later been removed, is an Essence Hole. Or would you also suggest Essence Loss due to addiction burnout can also be applied as an Essence Hole?
QUOTE
Pre-Augmentation it was implied that an essence hole is an essence hole regardless of the means used to create it.

Pre-Augmentation, Essence Holes did not exist in Shadowrun 4 RAW. If you lost an implant for some reason, you would have to pay the Essence Cost again to have another copy installed.
QUOTE
AFAIK, they haven't specified in SR4 or SR4A whether essence-drain means you're supposed to track a third(!) essence-loss category.

It is not a 'third category', it is flat-out loss. It is not tracked separately like bioaugmentation & cyberaugmentation, because it has no effect on the loss values of other categories - it is simply a straight reduction. This is very clear with the Rules as Written.
Snow_Fox
I don't think a SIN is an option because isn't a vamp technically dead? Their essence went to 0 so they are dead.
As ofr feeding legally, sure I can see winos and stuff voluntarily giving up their essance for a 'hit' of the great feeling.
I read in a book once about a female vamp who went 'trolling for rapists' she'd walk in bad neighborhoods and when a criminal attacked her, she would feed on them saying it was only just.

As for corps, yeah we need someone to name names. I don't think corps have to wonder about looking discrimnatory, i mean the bottom line is vamps are infected with a fatal disease and can spread this to innocents. Like ghouls they are easy to paint as a monster. Sure well fed 'Bob' can look good for the press at a night court case to sue but the first question from prosecutor is who did you feed on to look healthy this month?
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Jun 27 2009, 11:54 AM) *
I don't think a SIN is an option because isn't a vamp technically dead? Their essence went to 0 so they are dead.

No. Vampires are not dead/undead, & do not die in the process of becoming a vampire. Even if they did, how would anyone know a significant portion of the time?
QUOTE
As ofr feeding legally, sure I can see winos and stuff voluntarily giving up their essance for a 'hit' of the great feeling.
I read in a book once about a female vamp who went 'trolling for rapists' she'd walk in bad neighborhoods and when a criminal attacked her, she would feed on them saying it was only just.

Vampires cannot drain Essence legally. Period. There need for Essence is the reason they are not recognized as citizens anywhere.
Mercer
Can I get a book and page number for the reference on the bounty on ghouls. I was trying to find it the last time I was running a game and kept coming up with bupkis. Also, the reference for the auto-criminal SIN for HMHVV-infected would be helpful.

I'm not a "vampire" guy, but I find myself drawn to the occasional "Near Dark/Blade 2/John Carpenter's Vampires"-style of run, and so these questions come up. (There was a gang of vamps in my game tha had based their structure on "Vampire: The Masquerade" on the theory that old vamps had passed down their traditions in the guise of game materials, and yeah, I played it mostly for laughs. That was from a run called "Britany the Vampire Slayer", about an elf whose phys ad abilities manifested after an HMHVV breakout in her high school.)

SR3 was very careful not to refer to vamps and other HMHVVer's as undead (I think Smuggler's Haven has the most direct address of this in the decker comments), but I don't have much of the SR4 library so it's always possible that's going to change. (By the time we get to SR5, they might be from space.)
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jun 28 2009, 03:48 AM) *
No. Vampires are not dead/undead, & do not die in the process of becoming a vampire. Even if they did, how would anyone know a significant portion of the time?

I never said undead. SR has always been very careful to avoid that term. BUT when your essence drops to '0' game over. You're dead. (Unless you have access to a Delta class biolab and a corp willing to spend beaucoup bucks to turn you into a Borg/Cyberman freak show of death.

SR has never posted vamp rules for how long you're dead after being drained but most vamp myths have a period of time after 'death' before you rise from your grave. 3 days, in parody of Christian beliefs, is the most common. So uncle Dave is put in the ground and then a few days later claws his way out, a ravenous beast looknig for his first feeding. Or a Runner, left for dead in a tenament having lost the fight with a vamp suddenly re-ppears, seriously po'ed at his chummers who let him die.
HappyDaze
If you can summon, bind, and invoke a great form Guardian Spirit - or if you know someone who can - then you can live off of any type of living creature (Dog has stats if you have a RAW purist GM, but I suggest cats if you're into Asian food...). All you have to do is have the spirit use Endowment to give your lunch the Sapience power and it now becomes a viable target for Essence Drain.
Falconer
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable @ Jun 26 2009, 03:11 PM) *
Pre-Augmentation it was implied that an essence hole is an essence hole regardless of the means used to create it.

Afterward, they were saying that bioware essence loss should be tracked separately from cyberware essence loss (nevermind that that screws up the 1/2 lower cost, and can lead to instant death while still at around 2 essence remaining by the base-book calculations.)


Wow, that's an incredibly POOR reading of the words.

Also the tracking isn't post-augmentation. It's right in SR4. One of the big changes in SR4 is that bioware now actually has an essence cost.

I've heard the stories of the bio-mages in prior editions... all the benefits. None of the drawbacks. I like that it's actually a hard choice to make now.


It says to track your cyber cost and bio cost totals SEPERATELY. EG: track them both at full cost... those essence costs are then used in a final later step to calculate your actual essence right now. Only adding half of the lesser.



As for me, if I was some rich Vampire living the high life... I'd think it'd be trivial to find some poor idjit in the barrens/low... pay them say 2-4 thousand to drain a single point of essence, then move on w/ a stern warning that their lives won't last long if they talk about this. (a month or two of living upkeep under the table).
Really... 10k a month for high includes food, room, etc... well you're not eating anything... where is that portion of the costs going? (putting up appearances mostly I'd guess and entertainment budget I guess).
Mercer
It's also worth noting that Essence Drain mentions that it creates an ecstasy that can be addictive-- Will (2)-- so after a while with a particular subject, it might be less about how to get the essence and more about dodging them so you don't have to take the last point and decide to either murder them or infect them. (It also mentions that Essence Drain has to be performed on a willing subjec or one made incapacitated, which is kind of like saying, "People have to give you their money, or you have to take it," but it's important to note it's not a combat ability I guess.)

Given that it can be pleasurable, and that vamps enjoy a certian mystique that say, bandersnatches don't, all the vamps of the world have to do is find 12 people a year to give them one point of Essence and not complain about it later. I would say it would be hard to do, but if there aren't a lot of vamps and there are still a lot of gothy/vampy/Twilighty/Ricey people who seem to get off on vamps, then it's probably not a problem.

Gotta go. Still looking for that page number on ghoul bounties and vamp criminal SINs. Much appreciated.
BishopMcQ
Shadows of North America p. 112 has a bounty listing for various paracrittersin Quebec. (Which includes ghouls, vamps and free spirits)
Runners Companion p. 60--Any Infected gains a Criminal SIN. The section goes on to explain each of the different Infected types and their legal status.

Edit: Search suggestion for anyone with Acrobat (not Reader), place all of your SR PDFs in a single folder and you can use the Full Search function to scan through all of them for keywords. Saves me a lot of time rather than having to open 10 books looking for an old reference.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Jun 28 2009, 08:10 AM) *
I never said undead. SR has always been very careful to avoid that term. BUT when your essence drops to '0' game over. You're dead. (Unless you have access to a Delta class biolab and a corp willing to spend beaucoup bucks to turn you into a Borg/Cyberman freak show of death.

SR has never posted vamp rules for how long you're dead after being drained but most vamp myths have a period of time after 'death' before you rise from your grave. 3 days, in parody of Christian beliefs, is the most common. So uncle Dave is put in the ground and then a few days later claws his way out, a ravenous beast looknig for his first feeding. Or a Runner, left for dead in a tenament having lost the fight with a vamp suddenly re-ppears, seriously po'ed at his chummers who let him die.

QUOTE (SR4A p.225)
The Infection power allows a critter with Essence Drain to infect
any suitable creature it has drained to 0 Essence with the strain of the
HMHVV virus it is carrying. To see if a victim is infected, make an
Opposed Test, rolling the critter’s Magic + Charisma against the victim’s
Body + Willpower. If the critter wins, the victim is infected. The
victim enters into a state of near-death, as the infection initiates physical,
mental, and spiritual transformation. Within 24 hours the newly
created critter revives at 1 Essence and must immediately drain Essence
from another being.

QUOTE (Runners Companion p.83)
If the test fails, the character falls into a coma for (30 – Body)
hours as his body transforms.
Snow_Fox
Oh, you're talinig 4th ed., well officially 4.2
BishopMcQ
I believe Snow Fox was going by the SR3 rules (or possibly earlier). In SR3, if the -1 Essence reduced the character to zero or less, they would die unpleasantly. (Shadowrun Companion p. 34 is the easiest reference.)
Mercer
@BishopMcQ: Thanks for the page numbers. Given that the bounties for ghouls and vamps are specific to Quebec (I can't recall seeing them listed anywhere else) and that it was a 1e sourcebook, that goes a long way towards confirming my suspicion that ghouls and vamps haven't had a bounty on them in most of the "civilized" world for some time.
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jun 28 2009, 08:52 PM) *
I believe Snow Fox was going by the SR3 rules (or possibly earlier). In SR3, if the -1 Essence reduced the character to zero or less, they would die unpleasantly. (Shadowrun Companion p. 34 is the easiest reference.)
LOL, yeah, Thankyou for the back up. I was thinking 1st Ed, 2nd ed, 3rd Ed. It seems to have changed in 4th ed. Away from the rules though my comments above about a time between drain and 'recovery' could still be applicable in terms of role playing.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jun 26 2009, 09:52 PM) *
It is quite clear, actually. Essence Loss due to augmentation, that has later been removed, is an Essence Hole. Or would you also suggest Essence Loss due to addiction burnout can also be applied as an Essence Hole?

In prior editions, I'm pretty sure that was the case (see the burnout mage, IIRC, but no pdfs for them, and not gonna bother digging the old books out.) And when rules are omitted (see below) old players tend to stick with what already existed, albeit unintentionally.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jun 26 2009, 09:52 PM) *
Pre-Augmentation, Essence Holes did not exist in Shadowrun 4 RAW. If you lost an implant for some reason, you would have to pay the Essence Cost again to have another copy installed.

I was gonna say, "what, are you nuts?" but after doing an actual text search in the pdf...but you're right, there's absolutely no rules for upgrading or replacing cyber whatsoever in the base book...that's pretty damn short-sighted. Of course, it also doesn't say essence loss is permanent - it would be a valid interpretation of the base rules that removing cyberware returns the essence. And we all know that wasn't the intention.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jun 26 2009, 09:52 PM) *
It is not a 'third category', it is flat-out loss. It is not tracked separately like bioaugmentation & cyberaugmentation, because it has no effect on the loss values of other categories - it is simply a straight reduction. This is very clear with the Rules as Written.

Fine, no effect on the existing losses - but certainly a major effect on later ones, therefore it needs to be tracked, and since it doesn't stack, then it does need to be tracked separately. After all, you're gonna need to know if the rejuvination treatment is giving you back essence from cyber-loss, bio-loss, or drains - since that will affect future implants, or even your calculated "current" essence.


QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 28 2009, 04:18 PM) *
Wow, that's an incredibly POOR reading of the words.
[snip]
It says to track your cyber cost and bio cost totals SEPERATELY. EG: track them both at full cost... those essence costs are then used in a final later step to calculate your actual essence right now. Only adding half of the lesser.

Yes, track "costs" separately, but total "loss" = full cost of bigger + 1/2 cost of lesser. So...what happens when you have 3 points of cyber and 3 points of bio? Base book says you have 1.5 essence remaining...want a new implant introduced in a later splatbook? Hope you guessed right at chargen, or instant death! The later rules mean that if you have 4 cyber and 2 bio, then if you get 2 point of cyber removed, and add 2 point of bio, you die from the cyber/bio-loss-counts-as-full-switchover, even though your "current" essence calculation will still be 1.
Mr. Unpronounceable
And, yes, I realize that last example isn't quite what I was aiming for...sorry, lack of sleep.
BishopMcQ
Mercer--If you read all the way through the Runner's Companion section that I listed, it mentions bounties but doesn't give actual pricing. I believe that Shadows of North America was a 3rd Ed book, as it describes events from after the Year of the Comet. (Confirmed for SR3, in game date of August 2062)


Mr Unpronounceable--The way I have generally run it, the Essence Hole can be filled with either type of implant.

So in your example Cyberware 4/Bioware 2 leaves an Essence of 1. Removing 2 points of Cyberware, leaves you at Cyber2/Bio2 but your Essence doesn't refill, so you still have an Essence of 1. Then adding the other 2 point of Bioware puts you at Cyber2/Bio4--still and Essence of 1.

Basically, as long as the new implants don't carve out more Essence than what you had removed before, the hole gets filled with the new Implant. It keeps people alive, maintains the general mechanic, and doesn't require gene-treatments between surgeries to fix you. (Augmentation p. 20 says that you can fill the Essence Hole with new implants and does not require a like for like replacement.)
Mercer
BMQ-- I don't have the Runner's Companion, but I'll take your word for it. (I was never wild about the rules for PC vamps, ghouls and so on, since they seemed to change the critter completely. I never understood why an NPC shapechanger would have an 8 Essence, and a PC would have a 6.) Duly Noted on the SoNA, I was thinking NAGtNA. When it comes to SR, I'm still stuck in the late 50's.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jun 30 2009, 05:01 AM) *
Mercer--If you read all the way through the Runner's Companion section that I listed, it mentions bounties but doesn't give actual pricing. I believe that Shadows of North America was a 3rd Ed book, as it describes events from after the Year of the Comet. (Confirmed for SR3, in game date of August 2062)


Mr Unpronounceable--The way I have generally run it, the Essence Hole can be filled with either type of implant.

So in your example Cyberware 4/Bioware 2 leaves an Essence of 1. Removing 2 points of Cyberware, leaves you at Cyber2/Bio2 but your Essence doesn't refill, so you still have an Essence of 1. Then adding the other 2 point of Bioware puts you at Cyber2/Bio4--still and Essence of 1.

Basically, as long as the new implants don't carve out more Essence than what you had removed before, the hole gets filled with the new Implant. It keeps people alive, maintains the general mechanic, and doesn't require gene-treatments between surgeries to fix you. (Augmentation p. 20 says that you can fill the Essence Hole with new implants and does not require a like for like replacement.)


From the clarifications the authors made here on the forums, no - cyber essence holes and bio essence holes are "supposed" to be kept separate. That's something that's pretty much been ignored in every game I've played in or run (with the exception of Missions - fortunately, it's never come up there.)

Ah, found the discussion: Synner explains it all


Again, sorry about coming off rather gruff earlier.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable @ Jun 29 2009, 09:42 AM) *
Of course, it also doesn't say essence loss is permanent - it would be a valid interpretation of the base rules that removing cyberware returns the essence. And we all know that wasn't the intention.

QUOTE (SR4 p.61)
Lost Essence can never be regained
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (Mercer @ Jun 30 2009, 04:39 AM) *
BMQ-- I don't have the Runner's Companion, but I'll take your word for it. (I was never wild about the rules for PC vamps, ghouls and so on, since they seemed to change the critter completely. I never understood why an NPC shapechanger would have an 8 Essence, and a PC would have a 6.) Duly Noted on the SoNA, I was thinking NAGtNA. When it comes to SR, I'm still stuck in the late 50's.



Err, my bad. I was pulling the info from Running Wild, which does have a mini-price chart of bounties offered (for a variety of critters) in the UCAS and CAS. This is what happens when you "search all PDF files" and don't look at what file you've pulled up! Hey, just call it a free mini-mini preview. wink.gif
Mr. Unpronounceable
Damn, Muspellsheimr, I even ran a text search on "essence" and didn't find that...

Ah well, so much for playing devil's advocate.
Ravor
No, I remember having this arguement before and preAUG Essence Holes did indeed exist, they just weren't called so by name.

However AUG fragged everything up to the point where if I remember correctly we actually had devs disagreeing with what the intent of the rules were for awhile.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Ravor @ Jun 30 2009, 04:15 PM) *
No, I remember having this arguement before and preAUG Essence Holes did indeed exist, they just weren't called so by name.

Provide a Shadowrun 4 book quote to support this.

Pre-Augmentation, 4th Edition had no rules at all indicating you could use Essence lost from a removed implant as 'credit' towards a replacement or upgrade.

Thus, Rules as Written, if you ever needed to replace an implant, or have one upgraded (to higher Rating &/or Grade), you had to pay the new Essence cost in full, in addition to the cost for your previous implant.
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