Did Toxics get a downgrade in SR4?, In the absence of domains... Options

[The Jake]

I was just flipping through the section on Toxics in Street Magic and to me, it looked like they copped a bit of a downgrade.

Part of the nastiness of Toxic spirits in SR was their ability to cross domains. Granted now, toxic spirits get a whole slew of new abilities that never existed previously and can really hurt. But is this the extent of their power?

- J.

[Ryu]

Industrialisation provides as many aspected domains as the GM desires - toxics are likely to choose homes that give them a substantial advantage. And the rent is cheaper for those, too.

[Snow_Fox]

To address the question, no they weren't powered down but other spirits were powered up.
We viewed the change asthe mana level in the world is climbing and magic users are getting a better understanding of the nature of things so are able to summon other spirits that are not limited by the confines of their environment. Toxics destroy their environment so that was why they crossed boundries. They were not moving from one area to another so much as carrying their area with them.

Think of it this way- carrying plants into a store, nice as it is does not make the sotre a field or forest, BUT the toxic ooze pouring out of a crashed truck is going to befoul the street and the store it rolls into.

Now in 2070, as opposed to 2050, spell casters have a deeper understanding of the nature , the true nature, of what they are calling forth, unconstrained by petty environmental issues that are just on the surface.

[hobgoblin]

Or maybe no longer applying subconscious clauses to the spiritual contract?

[Chibu]

Or maybe they changed those rules to make it "easier". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Screaming Eagle]

Always remember: the rules we the Awakened follow are not rules.

They are the best of our current understanding.
If any of us are right it is the wildest of chance.

The insight of crazed wizard of yesterday is the workings of the most banal mage of today.
Boundries fall, new nations rise from nothing, but I am the explorer.

Each day I learn something new, each day I see new worlds of power, you cannot judge me!

- A rant I'm going to try really hard to have a Blood shaman (or other toxic/ threat mage) get out before initiative is rolled.

[Screaming Eagle]

So, yes, they got a kinda down grade, if you want to keep them "Bad ass" and "outside the regular rules"... give them a new trick. A new, horrifying rules bending trick.
Selecting one at random on the fly... "Spirit themed" Inhabitation for everyone toxic (plants inhabiting plants, earth prefering golems, spirits of man.... well haunted houses are cool too, the walls get to bleed and the house has essence drain and loss(blood spirit of man... kinda ew all on its own)), yay! But when the vessel is destroyed they are just forced into the astral and are then free to matierialise having taken no damages... suddenly that Toxic greatform plant spirit with regeneration got somehow worse... keen.

Alternativly: Have the bugger haul an aspected background count around with him - sure domains are gone, but he's got one and its on his back. I'm not sure how horrifying this is in play but off hand it looks terrifying.

[kzt]

See Frank's take on the toxic traditions.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=15585

[Apathy]

Alternativly: Have the bugger haul an aspected background count around with him - sure domains are gone, but he's got one and its on his back. I'm not sure how horrifying this is in play but off hand it looks terrifying.

If you were to do this, how would you determine the level of BC?

[The Jake]

I've seen his rules. I think they help clarify Toxic spirits a bit, but they don't solve the problem - or at least it seems incomplete.

Toxic shamans should be feared for more than their use of magic. They should have unique magics, apart from summoning toxic spirits. Corrupting spirits and domains - creating background count is a fine start to be sure, but what else? Should they get metamagics which might taint PCs? When a PC is hit with a powerbolt from a toxic shaman, should there be a residual effect? I don't know the answers, I'm just putting the ideas out there.

Blood Mages you know at least have the ability to cast head-exploding level spells and avoid or mitigate the drain. Their disregard for life is what makes them feared.

I guess I would like to see similar powers in the hands of toxics.

- J.

[Ravor]

I don't know, I think the fact that in most cases if you see a Toxic Shaman then you are facing a crazy background count while he uses it as a bonus is pretty scary in of itself, not to mention having to wear survival gear and thus being out of your normal armor is fairly scary.

[Ryu]

I don't know, I think the fact that in most cases if you see a Toxic Shaman then you are facing a crazy background count while he uses it as a bonus is pretty scary in of itself, not to mention having to wear survival gear and thus being out of your normal armor is fairly scary.

That is a rather massive rules advantage, yes. Plus toxics have a very solid chance of creating BC with mundane means, or have MCT or SK standard mining operations provide the BC.

If you give you toxics acid attacks (classic for poluters), taking damage should ingame be much more scary than having bullets bounce from your armor and taking stun.

[Ravor]

Agreed, but I think that the basic point which I was clumsily trying to make is that Blood Mages and Toxics are iconic and scary for very different reasons, a Blood Mage isn't scary because he can nuke a small city and survive, he is scary because his abilities makes him look at the people around him for what they really are, Patterns of Magical Engery just waiting to be tapped to fuel his spells. Basically he is scary because his existance reminds us that we are no longer on top of the food chain. Toxics on the other hand shouldn't be feared because of any special power or ability, instead people should fear them because of the enviroments they draw their power from.

In other words, you remember the big bad Blood Mage for his personality, but you instead remember the big bad Toxic Mage's lair.

[Screaming Eagle]

If you were to do this, how would you determine the level of BC?

The spirits BC or how the current locals BC is calculated?

Of hand? For location: If I want them to be super Badass Ultra Toxic? Overwrites other BC at a rate of (how horrible do you want it? Days that the spirit spends haning around aspect the BC in his directe 1 per each full 24 hours spent "sanctifying" the location with "ritual matierails", fades at a rate of one point per week(or month or year - seriouslly how bad arse do you want it?) Complex actions to drop the existing BC at a rate of 1 per and then raise its? Combat turns as its nature just oozes out of its astral form in all directions? All three? Ya, all 3... that the right amount of horrible. shows up, starts oozing... ew, trys harder and oozes ew faster, spends time at it, ooze stays. Make it part of an area effect energy aura power for awesome/ horrible)

For absolute power? Donno, this is basically the "Personal Domain" power (I'm blanking on its name and exact mechanics) but mobile, I'd probably look that up and use it as a baseline

Now rather then remembering the fight for its lair you are remembering the last 4 major battles (the toxic mage of course keeps getting away - some sort of highly mobile variation on "Turn to Goo" he's got that targets himself and all sorts of spirit aid)... the walls keep belting out hard rads but we are fairly sure this is the last one, god I hope my suit holds this time, doctor said I should get any more radiation, ever.
I've personally (generally) run toxics as a "wear you down" foe - almost never confronted directly but always seeking ways to make you (or their targety) suffer, till you track them to their true lair and source of power which they must (for whatever reason) defend. And even after you win its still has fallout (oft literally)
Blood mages, on the other hand, love confrontation, perhaps even hunger for it, the Blood mage I have in my current game has openly dared a PC to pull the trigger on the assault rifle they had pressed to his neck.

I like the courrupting idea too - some variant on Compulsion powers that leave the mage drawn to toxic sites of the appropiate aspect... they just feel right. They start by assuming its part of their "avenging nature" *snicker* thing and soon find they are getting bonuses while fighting toxics... and down the garden path we go. Cross hash this with the toxic domain creator opponent and I'm sure I can work up a monologe or two for the villian to explain that you have just chosen the other side of the coin.

Oh... make the presence of a nemises nessasry for the power (The BC crazy power) to work at its full power and suddenly I have a Corrupter looking for potential Avengers. Enter the Eco-friendly PC or major PC contact -> Stories.