 Different Clip Sizes, and assoted ramblings |
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 Jan 22 2004, 04:25 AM
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#26
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375  |
Cool. Thanks CB. I was sorta right, my explaination wasn't too accurate but I was on the right track.
I'd also like to thank you for getting my thread back on track. :) |
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Jan 22 2004, 04:27 AM
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#27
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Humorous aside: most mags for my handgun are a bloody sight more than $5.
This suggests so many guns exist that magazines are mass-produced to the point they can be amazingly cheap. :grinbig: -Siege |
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Jan 22 2004, 04:28 AM
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#28
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
That's pretty much it. Spring fatigue due to long-term compression really isn't that big of a problem anymore, though. Modern spring steel alloys are so good at keeping their shape that keeping a magazine loaded for years at a time is unlikely to make any perceptible difference. There was an article about that in a magazine recently... I'll have to find it. The problem, of course, is that there are a lot of magazines with cheap, old springs out there. Thank God for Wolff. However, Solstice is right about very large capacity magazines being more tempermental toward the end of the ammo stack. In order to keep rounds from flying out when the magazine is fully loaded, the pressure on the magazine's follower tends to get pretty low when the mag is almost empty so that the bolt occasionally cycles faster that the spring can push the rounds up against the feed lips. What you get is a misfeed; a round jammed between the mag and the bolt or no round fed into the chamber at all. I wouldn't be suprised if that's the problem people are having with the C-Mags.
Right. Burst fire requires a ratchet that counts the number of times the hammer is tripped or the bolt is cycled, then it disconnects the trigger from the rest of the firing mechanism after that number is acheived. In a full-auto weapon, you don't need that piece. It just keeps going until you let off the trigger or you run out of ammo. The burst fire mechanism is basically a few extra parts that limit automatic fire. |
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Jan 22 2004, 04:49 AM
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#29
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
You can sometimes get POS, bent during manufacture, :mad:, :mad:, :mad: , magazines for about 5 buck a pop. Or you could get some that work just fine. A better cost for magazines would be in the 20-40 :nuyen: range. I will assume that a lot of the minor reliability issuses with large mags will have been worked out by then. A M-23 with a C-mag can make a quick SAW when you can't get anything better.
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Jan 22 2004, 05:09 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
the "catch" is known as the "sear". |
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Jan 22 2004, 05:12 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Well experience tells me your wrong. However, I'm sure if you pay enough you can get an uber spring that lasts much longer, but I'm guessing metallurgy has not made so many leaps and bounds in the past 5 years as to make my comments totally invalid. If you can prove what you say, I'm willing to rephrase. |
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Jan 22 2004, 06:00 AM
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#32
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Well obviously, all springs are not created equal, Solstice. I've had springs crap out on me, too. Looking for that article now (might take a few days; I have a few boxes of magazines to look through)... Here's a page from my own experiences... My dad had a 1911 that he bought surplus in 1959 (an RIA rebuild) and later stuffed away in a closet, mag loaded (and this was a well-used GI mag). Some twenty years later, when I was about tweleve or so, we took the thing out, unloaded it, checked the ammunition (which was still good), put it back in and proceeded to shoot with nary a hiccup. We put the pistol away again, mags loaded. I didn't see that pistol again until I was 18. I took it to a local range, checked the ammo (still good), reloaded and went to town. GI mag fed like a charm. The second mag, a Colt mag that was also loaded for six years, wouldn't feed for shit. Three-points every two or three rounds (a rounded Metalform follower fixed that). I still use that GI mag today, and it works just as well as it did when I was twelve (well, as long as you're using hardball, anyway). No überspring needed. Given, it's only a seven round mag... I've also read a story (via Jeff Cooper) about a similar thing happening, only with a WWI-era pistol that was stored cocked and locked for a much longer period of time, IIRC. |
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Jan 22 2004, 08:02 AM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The standard issue magazines we were distributed were sometimes upwards of 15 years old, and the springs still flew a nice 15 meters when you released the lock on the bottom plate... They weren't being kept loaded for more than ~4 days at a time, and probably not more than ~30 days per year average. Still, there was never any problem whatsoever with the magazines.
The few reviews I've seen and the few comments I've heard about the 75- and 100-round drums for AKs have given me the impression that they do not suffer from a significant lack of reliability compared to 30-round box-magazines. That is: An AK loaded with a 100-round drum will feed more reliably than an M16A2 with a 30-round box that is only loaded with 28 rounds. :P Also found this from a site on AK mags: "Both [75- and 100-round drums] can be long-term stored with cartridges, as the magazine spring is not wound up while filling, but later when preparing to use it." So spring degradation has been taken into consideration in the design, but it seems it doesn't happen in a significant degree in the actual AK mags. I allow extended mags (and drums) for most weapons in my games. I never made a solid ruling on them, but I'll probably adopt the "+1/4 capacity, +½ price" ratio mentioned by Raygun. I'll decide on the impact on Concealability one weapon and magazine at a time. I will remind them about the possible reliability issues, and will simply say "No" if the modification would be really bad for weapon balance -- I might even say "No" to the 100-round curved box magazine for AKs. |
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Jan 22 2004, 05:22 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Come on man, your smarter than that. Your talking about a 7 round pistol mag with a totally different spring design. Don't be silly. Your comparison is almost completely invalid. |
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Jan 22 2004, 07:05 PM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Is mine too?
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Jan 22 2004, 07:23 PM
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#36
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I'd like to point out that the canon 5¥ mags are nowhere stated to be interchangable between guns. You don't even know if pistol mags are interchangable, and you certainly shouldn't be able to slap them into LMGs without any problems. Canon may be often stupid for reasons passing understanding, but I'd give it that much credit.
Anyway, 5¥ a piece is pretty dumb, but I think it was mainly done to foster action movie style slap-the-mag-release-and-toss-in-a-new-mag reloading. Same goes for Smartlink and its free action mag release, which, again, makes little to no fucking sense if you want to play realistically. |
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Jan 22 2004, 08:09 PM
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#37
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
What are you talking about?? Clarity is your friend.
Well, neither does wired reflexes, but thats a different story. So how does it not make sense? Do you have a problem suspending your disbelief? |
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Jan 22 2004, 08:22 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The reason why I think it doesn't make sense is that releasing the mag on just about any firearm should be a Free Action anyway. Try as you might, putting more than 0.2 seconds of thought or action into releasing the magazine of any decent pistol is darn hard. On an assault rifle, you often have to move your full arm for at least a whopping 4", which might take as much as 0.3 or even 0.4 seconds. Overall, the action takes a fraction of the time it takes to "Fall Prone" and be ready to act again. Putting the released magazine back to a magazine pouch takes ages, however.
I'm pretty sure he's saying that, even by canon, you aren't allowed to switch magazines between different weapons. The intent of the rules most likely was that you aren't allowed to switch magazines between different weapon types (Light Pistol to Heavy Pistol, for example), nor between weapons with different magazine capacities (Ares Predator to Browning Max-Power). |
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Jan 22 2004, 08:34 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
Hmm. I always read it that ammo was interchangeable by weapon type (Light Pistol, SMG, whatever), but that clips were weapon specific (Predactor, Lightfire, SCK Model 100). Just kind of seemed to make sense.
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Jan 22 2004, 08:39 PM
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#40
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Well yeah, that'd make sense certainly. But that doesn't mean that's how the game designers meant it to work... If that happens to matter to you. You might want to allow interchangeable magazines when the weapon type, magazine capacity and maker are the same (All Ares Predators, Browning Max+Ultra, Colt Cobras, HK227s, the AKs, Mossberg CMDTs, and of course the AUG/CSL and G38).
That distinction doesn't matter much with the canon weapons, however, since there doesn't seem to be any weapons made by the same firm that are of the same type and have the same mag cap but aren't just slightly different models of the same gun. |
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Jan 22 2004, 08:43 PM
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#41
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
ohhh, well when you put it that way....I thought he meant the whole "mental command" thing didn't make sense. I was prepared to roll out the rigger argument. But your explanation clears it up.
Yeah, I got that much. I just didn't know whose post he was referring to. I'm still not sure, to tell you the truth. I was thinking tanka's:
But I'm pretty sure tanka was being sarcastic. |
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Jan 22 2004, 08:51 PM
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#42
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Actually, no. It's very silly (if not outright stupid) that, for the most part, that's what people think. A few players I ran with tried that stunt because they were out of ammo, so they thought that, since both guns used clips, they could interchange them with no forethought about clip sizes.
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Jan 22 2004, 08:54 PM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I really wish SR makers would've bothered to get that right... |
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Jan 22 2004, 08:58 PM
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#44
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Picky, picky! It gets the idea across, and people don't have to have a huge understanding of guns to say "I pull out a <correct type of ammuntion loading facilitator> and slam it into my gun." And it also eases the GM's worries so they don't have to remind the player that the magazine they just loaded isn't the right kind of magazine after all. It was more of an "ease of use" thing than a "mechanically correct" thing, I think. |
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Jan 22 2004, 09:10 PM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Why is "magazine" a harder word for people to understand than "clip"? "Box magazine" wouldn't be required, I only added "box" so the people who've gotten their firearms-knowledge from SR wouldn't confuse it with an "internal magazine". A "clip" could simply be renamed "magazine" and an "internal magazine" could be renamed just "internal". No problems.
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Jan 22 2004, 09:23 PM
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#46
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Not everybody is supremely intelligent. Some people, yes. As a general consensus, RPers are mainly average to above average. However, there are those that aren't as intelligent and may not get what the difference is unless there was a difference in words.
And as I said, it looks like an "ease of use" issue because people are used to a box magazine being referred to as a clip due to media. |
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Jan 22 2004, 09:33 PM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm not willing to believe that people in general are so fucking moronic that they can't tell the difference between a "Removable Box Magazine" and an "Internal Magazine", especially when former would be referred to as "magazine" and the latter as "internal".
Although this seems a lost battle, since even Merriam-Webster now says under clip (noun): 2 : a device to hold cartridges for charging the magazines of some rifles; also : a magazine from which ammunition is fed into the chamber of a firearm |
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Jan 22 2004, 09:37 PM
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#48
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Like I said: media inspired terminology. It's about a fruitless a battle as trying to tell PETA activists that animals do not, in fact, have rights.
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Jan 22 2004, 09:42 PM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
But they do. Beating them to death is illegal, as is raping them (it's hard to argue that the sex was "consensual" after all). Or at least it is in most of the civilized world, I'm not familiar with respective US laws. However, a clip is clearly not nor has it ever been a magazine. It's as though medias started calling PCs 16-bit gaming consoles. The battle may have been lost, but the fighting isn't over as long as I can RANT! This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jan 22 2004, 09:43 PM |
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Jan 22 2004, 09:51 PM
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#50
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Is this a record? Murder, beastility, blashphmey, guns, and redneck law all in one rant? wow |
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