 Different Clip Sizes, and assoted ramblings |
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 Jan 22 2004, 10:01 PM
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#51
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Chrome to the Core  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715  |
It was an example, AE. Calm down already. The media has its hold on the world, and it won't let go. So until somebody gets the media to start calling it by the right terms, it will always be a "clip" in the eyes of the general public. And, yes, people are stupid enough to not figure out the difference between a box magazine and an internal magazine. If you've ever worked retail, you know what I'm talking about. |
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Jan 22 2004, 10:03 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 12-August 03 From: Sulphur, Louisiana Member No.: 5,418 |
I like drugs, sex, theft, and gambling.. Discuss.. There, now we've covered just about every vice imaginable.. |
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Jan 22 2004, 10:13 PM
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#53
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
As I stated both previously and clearly, it's unlikely that you can swap magazines between different pistols. For example, two people, one with his Morrissey Alta and the other with her Colt Manhunter, are pinned down behind cover. If one runs empty, he or she cannot grab magazines from the other. And you sure as hell cannot do it if one is armed with an LMG and the other with a pistol. I think it was only written down as 5¥ for magazines in the book for pricing purposes, and not categorized as a single item for reasons of functionality. I don't think I can explain any slower or clearer, so past that, you're on your own. And wired reflexes make a hell of a lot more sense than a basic motor function in combat taking far more or far less time (or, in this case, both) than it would in real life. I can't beat up on the magic system for being unrealistic because we don't have magic, but I can beat up on the reloading system for being dumb because I know how to reload a 1911, and this will not change a bit in 60 years. As for magic or wired creating artistically unpleasant game dynamics, that's neither here nor there, but the fact remains that this is not about suspension of disbelief, but suspension of even the smallest amount of intellectual capacity. edit: read your post, and no, my problem is not with the mental command portion of Smartlink. Merely that there's no use for it to begin with, as the entire system was designed with the misconception that people just slapped mag releases and let the things fall to the ground (just watch any bad action movie, really). |
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Jan 22 2004, 11:54 PM
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#54
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm calm. The last line could've used a smiley. My current problem is that I'm having one of my good moods. It won't last for long. I ought to reach complete understanding of the limitless idiocy of humankind in a few hours. Hilarity will ensue. BTW, I know nothing about the PETA other than that they have ads with a nude Dominique Swain in them. Thanks to that, and the fact that I do not have to deal with their (possible) crap because I live in a different country, I rather like the organization. Arethusa: Would you say releasing a magazine and putting it back into a magazine pouch is a Complex Action? That's what I've been thinking. |
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Jan 23 2004, 12:20 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
well we could devote an entire forum to the left-leaning, filthly, socialist, garbage pile that is the media.
But not here. :grinbig: |
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Jan 23 2004, 12:34 AM
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#56
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
As fun as it would be seeing how you can manage to think your US medias are "left-leaning" or "socialist", I suppose we might as well continue with the magazine size discussion.
Which reminds me. Solstice: Did you comment on my example of the 30-round assault rifle (AK-type) box magazines that had all been kept loaded for a total time of well over a year? And since the amount of magazines in question is about 120, it's a fair guess that a significant number of those magazines had spent far more than that time loaded. |
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Jan 23 2004, 01:00 AM
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#57
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I totaly agree that there is no basis in RL or SR for different weapons being able to switch mags. Even if they're in the same, and I use the term loosely, class. I was merely wondering where the thought came from. You appeared to be responding to someone's post. Or its a thought that has been bothering you for a while. I know how that is. :)
OK. Between your two posts and AEs comments, I think I got it: Instead of, "Same goes for Smartlink and its free action mag release, which, again, makes little to no fucking sense if you want to play realistically." What you should have said was, "There's no fucking way it takes that long to press the mag release. Thats makes no sense. Its unrealistic." Or you could have switched it up a number of ways simply by placing the colorful and everpopular "fucking" in different positions, thus letting us know how strongly you felt about the free vs. simple action of "eject clip". You could even say "eject mag". Or in your most recent post you could have said: "Yes, AE. Thats what I meant. Thank you for explaining it in terms Kevyn668 could understand. He's a bit slow, you know." and then place your choice of smiley to indicate whether you truly do think I'm slow or if you agree with me in that you were vague w/ your earlier post. :) |
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Jan 23 2004, 01:25 AM
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#58
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I think the problem here might be that you were talking about large capacity rifle box magazines exclusively, whereas I was talking about all magazine springs in general, then a 1911 pistol mag specifically. That's what the whole "given, it's only a 7 round mag" comment was there for. I wasn't comparing rifle mags to pistol mags, I was simply relaying an experience I've had with one type of magazine. My point was to illustrate that some magazines can stay loaded for very extended periods of time while others won't handle it near as well, even magazines of the same design made by a different manufacturer. I also agreed with you about the high cap rifle mags and their disinclination to feed correctly toward the bottom of the ammo stack. I agree with you that it's probably not a good idea to leave high capacity rifle mags loaded for years at a time, especially the kind that go in particularly finnicky rifles like the AR15 and variants. However, I'm sure it's been done innumerable times, and I'm sure it's worked just fine a great deal of those times. Please refer to Aus's comments. PS: The spring in one of my 7 round 1911 magazines is nearly identical in design to the spring used in one of my 30 round AKM mags. They're even the same gauge wire. The differences are the length and diameter of the springs, and most importantly, how much compression they're under when the magazine is fully loaded. The AKM mag spring is under far more compression, which means that it will fatigue faster than the 1911 mag. I have two 30-round AKM magazines that have been loaded and in storage since late October. I'm pretty sure they'll work just fine once I put them to use again, but I'll be happy to let you know if they don't. |
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Jan 23 2004, 03:59 AM
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#59
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I was, actually. Back on the first page:
I should have quoted this to begin with, considering I waited some two hours to respond. My apologies if that got confusing as a result. That said, you are obviously stupid, remarkably dense, and very annoying, and I despise you for reasons I have yet to compose, but I am quite sure that, when I do, they will be clear, forceful, and compelling, and you will be forced to agree. And, yes, Austere Emancipator. That's what I meant. Thank you for explaining it in terms Kevyn668 could understand. He's a bit slow, you know. And since you internet Cute Nazis must have your way with me, just this once: :P Anyway, seems that that's cleared up with a minimum of fuss and injury.
I do. I personally would somewhat like for it to be more significant, but it's a bit unfair to say that an unwired person should take more than 3 seconds for the task, and in deference to them, I don't think it can be taken any further without getting a bit silly. At most, though, might be able to get away with simple action to remove the mag and a subsequent complex action to jam the thing in a pouch. As a side note, I'm rather fond of the idea of breaking up reloading into various smaller actions and assigning them certain lengths of time (eg. simple action to remove your pistol mag, complex action to stash it, complex action to grab a new one, and simple action to release the slide— or alternatively, free action to release the slide and complex action to fully rack it). But, as you can imagine, it's not exactly compatible with Shadowrun's action system, and would require something that allows for a bit more detail. |
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Jan 23 2004, 04:03 AM
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#60
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Are we still talking about handguns?
Free action Right hand: depress magazine release, wrist snap to free magazine Left hand: retrieve fresh mag and bring it to gun Simple action left hand: slide new mag in right hand: release slide, chambering new round Granted, I've never had to reload under combat conditions and I've never tried timing my reload sequence, but it's not exactly complicated. -Siege |
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Jan 23 2004, 04:13 AM
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#61
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
It's worth noting that reload times are a hell of a lot easier at the range when you have mags sitting in front of you. When you have to deal with dirt, explosions, suppressing fire, and the entire battle unfolding around you— and on top of which, you must shove the goddamn thing back in your pack and find a fresh one— things go a bit slower. I've yet to find a way of accurately reflecting all of this in Shadowrun's system, because, as it stands, reloading is a minor nuisance, whereas it is dangerous and a very big deal in combat.
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Jan 23 2004, 04:17 AM
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#62
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
What if you're not especially concerned with policing your magazine(s)?
Say in an urban environment where you can expect to be readily and easily supplied? Not "Battle of Stalingrad" combat scenarios, but in relatively low-threat conditions, say police actions? -Siege |
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Jan 23 2004, 04:24 AM
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#63
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
If you're talking about street cops, they need to be careful because they're not heavily armed nor terribly well trained for combat. If you mean SWAT, they certainly don't have to worry about dirt and explosions, but they hardly have to worry about reloading anyway. Most SWAT operations are over in seconds, and speed and precision matter more than anything else. That said, you still can't just drop the things on the floor no matter where you are, because they certainly can break, or, at the very least, become a liability.
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Jan 23 2004, 05:54 AM
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#64
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
There can be several reasons that this can take much longer in combat. You will probably not have a full magazine in your other hand (we were using both hands to control our weapon, weren't we?). So you'll need to get it of your magaine pouch. You will probably be cowering behind something. You don't want to reload in a 'range stance' in the middle of an open area, so you will probably be crounched or lying down behind something, depending on how you are contorted reloading may take a bit of extra time. In combat it is like that you are going to be breathing fast (your hands will shake, from slightly to alot) making the normally simple action of getting the magaine out of the pouch and into the magazine well that much harder. In combat, reloading may not be occupying your whole attention, so things like making sure you don't have the magaine backwards, or you have ejected the old magaine first, or something else 'silly' like that might delay you further. Mud. If you are in the infanty, God will have arranged for there to be a lot of mud where you happen to be, even if you are in normally mud free places like New York City or Antartica. Since it will have invariably gotten on your hands, on your weapon, into your magainze pouch, and so on. Your hands might slip on the magazine, and you may have to 'tap out' or wipe the magaine to reduce your chances of a misfeed. While individually, none of these things might increase your time that much, they usually all come at once. |
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Jan 23 2004, 06:31 AM
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#65
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Depending upon how well trained and prepared your are for combat. One of the points of training with firearms is to make these kinds of tasks as subconcious as possible so you can concentrate on other things. Anyone can be overwhelmed depending on the circumstances, and the average soldier is well under-trained. Still, dirt, loud noises and incoming fire do not, by default, turn all into hopeless, fumbling puddles of terror. At some point you learn how to classify your fear and work with it. Willpower tests and all that. I thought you guys might want to see how quick mag changes can be done. Here's video of Todd Jarrett shooting and changing magazines . Given, he's a like a skill level 8 in Shadowrun terms (and is, of course, not under the stress of combat). Some magazines are designed to drop free from the firearm (see the video linked above) without hassle and include replaceable bumper pads so that the mag can be dropped directly on the floor with very little to no threat of damage. There are a few companies that make add-on bumpers that slip over existing rifle magazines to serve the same purpose as well as provide an easy place to grab the mag should it not drop free (like the MagPul). About half the time you see a picture of SWAT or specops operators, they've got these things on their mags. |
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Jan 23 2004, 06:51 AM
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#66
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Unfortunately SR has no system to show someone's combat experience or training. I never said that changing the magazine would be 'difficult' but that several stress factors can increase the magainze changing time. For the 'puddle of terror' this might be 10-20 seconds. For our ice blooded runners it might be .5 seconds
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Jan 23 2004, 07:41 AM
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#67
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
My comments weren't really directed at you, Bob. You make good points. I just wanted to make the point that combat does not affect everyone the same way all the time. Some people will be adversely affected by it, and at other times they will be as cool and calm as snow. Rarely are people ever in one state every time they are under stress.
As far as rules are concerned, skill, by definition, represents training. Skill tests can be applied to reloading in the same manner as shooting, using the applicable skill (i.e Pistols, Shotguns, etc...). If you fail, your action is blown and you have to spend another to try again. As for combat experience, I treat it as an edge that can be applied to willpower tests during combat. |
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Jan 23 2004, 07:51 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Ok, well i did not mean to sound so outraged. I don't know what your talking about though. If your AKM and your pistol mags use the same springs...I don't know what to say to that. Every mag I have ever seen there was a definite difference in spring design and/or gauge between pistol and assault rifle. Maybe I am just looking at bastard junks mags?
Anyway enough arguing I'm obviously not getting anywhere. |
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Jan 23 2004, 02:57 PM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yeah, cause those magazines I worked with most certainly were of the "30 round, assault rifle" type, and actually have longer springs/more spring depression because they were 7.62x39 instead of 5.56x45. :P I do it pretty much like Siege said for pistols, as long as the characters had the mags easily available. If not, that's an additional Single Action. For assault rifles, it's a Complex Action unless the character has done significant preparations (fighting from a position with a fresh magazine laid out next to the gun for example). And then the additional Complex Action if you wish to put the empty back into a magazine pouch. |
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Jan 23 2004, 03:15 PM
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#70
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
(emphasis mine) Sounds like you've composed several clear, forceful, and compelling reasons... :) But, I still choose to not agree w/ you. That being said, I agree w/ your ideas about stashing the empty mag. It should be a pain in the ass. I always assumed that the simple action of replacing the clip was just that and had nothing to do w/ keeping the freshly ejected one. I figure they just fall to the floor. I've never been in a gun fight in RL, but in SR my chars don't worry about keeping the empties during the fight. If I won and have a minute, I'd scoop up the empties and haul ass. But if the bullets are still flying and I have to leave in a hurry, well, screw the empty mag...they only cost 5 :nuyen: :) . Maybe thats why they're so cheap. They're meant to be disposable do the high degree of violence in SR. BTW:
I don't think I've heard the words "cute" and "Nazis" in the same sentence before... |
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Jan 23 2004, 03:30 PM
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#71
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I just love how a game where characters spent hundreds of thousands of nuyen on cybermods and vehicles can spawn a thread three pages long about whether 5 :nuyen: is a reasonable price for a clip. Clips cost 5 :nuyen: because the game designers don't give a crap how much a clip costs! :( Sad but true. Until something costs upwards of 1,000 :nuyen: it's not really worth the time or effort to figure out how much it costs. That's what lifestyle is for. If your character wants to buy 100 clips because he doesn't like to pick them up or take the complex action to stash them in his pouch, then use the cost and make him pay 500 :nuyen: . Yeah, that might be a bit cheap, but it's a bulk discount.
All I'm saying is, there are things that are worth worrying about, and things that aren't. :eek: In case anyone is still wondering, I know the thread isn't just about the cost of a clip, and I think it's a really good thread. Many cool issues discussed. Cheers. |
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Jan 23 2004, 03:33 PM
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#72
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Sort of on topic, but a little sideways:
Any recommendations for a good holster for a Sig 220? I'm looking at an Uncle Mike's thumb-snap retention, belt ride with jacket extender currently. -Siege |
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Jan 23 2004, 04:52 PM
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#73
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
If you think that sucks, when you're a mage you actually need to pay for chalk for that quick Hermetic Circle you want. |
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Jan 23 2004, 06:02 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Well hurray for you! You get a cookie!! Anything else you would like to preen about? Your not convincing me. |
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Jan 23 2004, 06:17 PM
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#75
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Next time I trip over newspapers excreted from the anus of Rupert Murdoch's "fair and balanced" media empire, I'll think of you :P |
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