 Different Clip Sizes, and assoted ramblings |
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 Jan 23 2004, 07:14 PM
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#76
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
You didn't comment on it in any way, you just commented on Raygun's example. So I thought maybe you didn't notice it, or maybe you noticed it and didn't consider it to be addressed at you. So I reminded you again. Wouldn't consider that "preening", but whatever.
So what kind of proof do you want? If you wish, I can ask for some of my army mates to make up Dumpshock Accounts. Unfortunately the Finnish Defense Force does not actively advertise it's extremely old gear. |
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Jan 23 2004, 07:37 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
I can think of a couple reasons to keep your mags. 1. They cost money. It may only be 5¥, but that still adds up over time and you should never waste a logistical resource if possible. 2. Letting a clip fall to the ground makes noise. Noise that can turn you into a bullet magnet. Best reloading technique I've ever seen was letting the empty mag fall into the hand holding the full one and then reload. Fast, efficient and quiet. You can let the slide drop when you have a target resolution. ;) 3. Evidence. The more evidence you leave behind, the greater the chance of getting caught. This is the most critical as a shadowrunner. :) |
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Jan 23 2004, 07:45 PM
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#78
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
S'why you should always handle your weapons, weapon parts, mags and ammo with gloves and wipe down every semi-regularly. :grinbig:
Although the noise-becoming-bullet-magnet idea is valid, if you're in a battle scenario, odds are a lot of background noise will mask your position short of a boom box blaring "Achey Breaky Heart". -Siege |
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Jan 23 2004, 07:48 PM
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#79
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I didn't say they were the same spring. I said that they were basically the same design of spring with very minor differences in terms of design. The size of the springs differ greatly, as does the pressure they're under at maximum compression. Other than that, I think I agreed with everything you said.
Christ, dude. It's not the end of the world. No one is calling you a liar. No need to get bent out of shape because people have had different experiences than you. Like I said, some magazines crap out. It happens. It's happened to me. Other magazines are extremely reliable. It happens. It's happened to me. Apparently, 30-round 7.62x39mm AK-style magazines and 7-round 1911 magazines are particularly good designs. I guess I can say the same for Lee-Enfield magazines, Ruger 10/22 magazines, and Colt Woodsman magazines. I cannot, in great confidence, say the same about most NATO 4179 (M16/SA80) magazines. If you're not convinced by what two people in an internet forum are saying, good. Skepticism is generally a good thing to stick to in places like these. But I have no reason to lie to you. |
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Jan 23 2004, 08:00 PM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
Each gun leaves it's own tell tale marks on the mag. Forensics can ID the weapon that way. My Steyr GB is notorious for making minute scratches on just the left front top on the mag and someone else I know doesn't have that issue. Every weapon is going to have these little manufacturing inconsistencies that are just as damaging as your own fingerprints. :( |
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Jan 23 2004, 08:09 PM
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#81
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
That's not really terribly significant when, chances are, your entire firefight was recorded on camera anyway, and any survivors can report back on the type of gun you had. Hell, shell casings can often identify a specific firearm, and doubly so if the extraction is gas assisted. Fact remains that mags— especially at 5¥ a piece— were never intended to be anything but disposable. There's no way anyone is going to care about 5¥ when you'll likely not drop more than three on a run and you're being paid, say, a thousand times that. And if you're good, you wear gloves at home when putting together your loadout and on the run when putt it to use. If you're not good, you'll do something stupid like handling your ammo without gloves, and it won't make a damn bit of difference. A good Gm should up the things to 25¥-45¥ each for them to become legitimate pieces of kit and not tje disposable supplies that they are by canon.
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Jan 23 2004, 08:12 PM
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#82
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
Shell casings aren't a problem if you go caseless... which you should in that line of work. ;) I do agree. Mags are woefully cheaper than they should be. Cripes, 10-round mags for my SVD cost $40 a pop. I'm not even going to mention how much they cost for my Steyr. |
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Jan 23 2004, 08:54 PM
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#83
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Yeah, yeah, don't get me started on how retarded Shadowrun's statement of optional caseless for all guns is. One of the first houserulings of any GM should be that all guns are traditional brass unless explicitly otherwise (eg Ruger Thunderbolt, which works like a caseless gun should, considering the whole reason caseless was explored for an infantry small arm was extreme rate of fire).
And, hell, the game's a lot grittier that way. There's a very significant artistic element in world creation that I feel is all to often ignored, and this is extremely true of Shadowrun. Action movies may be fun, but there's a very big reason they are almost never intellectually compelling. |
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Jan 23 2004, 09:06 PM
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#84
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Um, you did see the part about bullets still flying, right? I added emphasis incase it was too subtle... 1) 5 :nuyen: . I'd have to leave 100s if not 1000s for it to make a difference. Also, when being shot at, I have bigger concerns on my mind than conserving resources. Sometimes I do let RL spill into my game... 2) It does make noise. But you probably wouldn't hear it over all the gunfire. I like your idea about the hand holding the full mag catching the empty one but that sounds like there should be a test of some sort. Quickness, maybe. The only thing is some clips are pretty big...and I don't mean to get personal, but how big are your hands? :D 3) meh, if I screwed up enough (or it was simply a GM plot device) to be in the middle of a firefight in the first place, one more piece of evidence isn't going to make or break me. Besides, how many players out there have had characters that beat a murder rap? More likely, its 3-9 counts of 2nd degree murder, 10 counts of reckless endangerment, possesion of illegal weapons/cyberware/magic. Use of illegal weapons/cyberware/magic. 8 counts of destruction fo private property. 6 counts destruction of public property. Resisting arrest. Assaulting an officer of the law. 2 counts of trespassing. Etcetera, etcertera, drek-cetera.... So, that clip really doesn't matter. If they catch you, you're done. BTW: does anyone make regular rolls for crime scene investigators? Or are there canon rules for this? I've seen alot of posters make refference to getting caught this way. I figure unless you do something stupid, I'll assume your character knows enough not to leave obvious clues. More power to you if you say things like, I make extra sure not leave any clues. Then again, my group is full of newbs so I don't set the bar that high yet. This post has been edited by kevyn668: Jan 23 2004, 09:13 PM |
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Jan 24 2004, 04:02 AM
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#85
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
When we talk about the cost of magazines, is anyone going to complain when I say I was given two magazines, one extra, when I bought my barretta?
For mag loads I've found they feed easier if i don't top them up. Both Barretta Cheetah(hand gun) and Enfield (rifle) take 10 rounds if fully loaded, but they work best with 9 rounds in them. (The easiest load is a revolver but they are slower to load in an emergency.) for refilling a magazine the barretta is a bitch but the enfield is real easy with a clip. each clip has 5 bullets, put it over the breech slid the bullets out and take off the clip(I guess i could throw it away, it's only $0.75 each but hey it's paid for.) does anyone know if they ever built a charger clip for pistols? |
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Jan 24 2004, 04:04 AM
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#86
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Some of the early mauser pistols fed with stripper clips, since the magaize was fixed. (I think that is what you are asking about, anyway).
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Jan 24 2004, 04:05 AM
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#87
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Charger clip?
As for crime scene rolls, insofar as I know, there isn't any canon material for the process. -Siege |
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Jan 24 2004, 04:24 AM
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#88
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
You can take the magazine of the enfield out and manually load it, but to use the charger clip you leave it in place, open the breach and feed the bullets past the works down into the mag, which then pushes them back up as you work the spring.
The barretta is a modern firearm with a removable magazine. |
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Jan 24 2004, 04:27 AM
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#89
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
One magazine extra with a new pistol is pretty much standard practice. And, while they're easier to load to -1 capacity, if the mag and gun are of sufficient quality, you shouldn't have any feed problems at full capacity. Also, do you mean stripper clip? Edit: you're talking about stripper clips. There's no such thing as a charger clip. And you can't really load an Enfield by removing the mag— or, more accurately, you can, but it requires a bit of disassembly first, and is not exactly practical, assuming you're talking about a classic Enfield rifle like the No. 4 (made famous by such wars as the second big one everyone talks about from time to time). |
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Jan 24 2004, 04:28 AM
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#90
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I don't know if I should consider myself fortunate or unfortunate for never having fired a gun that was significantly more unreliable with a full mag, and mostly having fired a gun that was nearly 100% reliable in just about all conditions. With my experience, it just seems damn funny that people can have problems with those kinds of things... Which is also why I almost never enforce weapon malfunctions in my games -- I have never suffered one IRL with live ammunition.
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Jan 24 2004, 04:31 AM
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#91
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Even if you were to, how would you do it? I've never heard of an approach that even began to be both realistic and elegant from the GM's perspective.
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Jan 24 2004, 04:34 AM
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#92
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
I had a dud round once from a dirt cheap 'bucket' of .22. But that was it.
Thank fully you have the version of the AK used by the Finns, plenty of other guns aren't as reliable. |
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Jan 24 2004, 04:36 AM
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#93
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The only time this (weapon malfunction) would come up in my games is with the Rule of Ones, and even then it isn't a guaranteed thing. |
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Jan 24 2004, 04:46 AM
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#94
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Yes, but the rule of ones is representative of user error, not equipment malfunction.
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Jan 24 2004, 04:55 AM
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#95
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm just going to go on assuming that in 60 years, most gun manufacturers will have "wisened up" and quit making guns that can't even shoot a measely 1,000 rounds without jamming. In -30 degrees celsius, barrel full of sand and rusted through. :P
If I did use rules for weapon malfunctions, I'd roll a die every X rounds, with a cumulative TN of Y, where both X and Y are determined by the "Reliability Factor" of the gun. The RFs would probably just be Very, Quite, Mediocre, Not very, M16A1 or something similar. :grinbig: |
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Jan 24 2004, 05:11 AM
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#96
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Strange, but I never got that impression. I use it as any type of bad luck, from tires blowing out to guns malfunctioning to spells misfiring to the face's fly being open. I don't recall anything in canon that states that the implimentation of the Rule of Ones is solely due to character error. |
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Jan 24 2004, 05:14 AM
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#97
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The rule itself might not be representative of user error, but the results certainly seem to be. Enforcing it strictly means that high-skill characters will virtually never get any sort of malfunctions, while low-skill (1 or 2) will get them constantly. That isn't very realistic for representing weapon malfunction. To an extent it makes sense (keeping your gun in better condition, knowing the right procedures when it jams, knowing how to handle it better in general), but not very far.
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Jan 24 2004, 05:37 AM
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#98
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Funny how this didn't get commented on earlier... There is no "HK MP" (AFAIK). The only pictures of a USP with a larger-than-normal magazine was an obvious fake, with an extra magazine cut/pasted underneath the real magazine. There certainly does not seem to be any way to easily convert a USP for automatic fire (which MP would imply). The Glock "MP" is the Glock 18, and I'm pretty sure using the 33-round magazine on a regular Glock 17 wouldn't be too much of a problem. |
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Jan 24 2004, 01:35 PM
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#99
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Short of assigning quality dice to a weapon, I can't think of a reasonable way to do it.
Two dice to each weapon, the GM rolls randomly -- if both dice roll "1"s, weapon malfunction. An exceptionally designed weapon has three or more dice, an especially shoddy one, only one die. -Siege |
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Jan 24 2004, 01:51 PM
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#100
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That'd better be "per every # rounds fired", because 1 malfunction per 36 shots is a lot of jamming for an average-quality firearm. An AK would have to have 4 dice on that system, 5 would be pushing it.
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