Double Defense, A Real Combat Shotgun Options

[puke]

For home defense, I would want a shotgun with ten barrels.

8 would be enough for me, as long as it had a tear-gas launcher in the middle of the ring of barrels:

http://tml.travellercentral.com/hillberg/index.html

[Larme]

Cyberpunk 2020 had a quad barrel shotgun. I think it was called the King Buck. Its damage code was something along the lines of "omgwtf" when all four barrels were fired.

[puke]

Yeah, wasnt that the prefered weapon of the Arasaka security squads or something? The Famars Rombo is a real life one of those, though smaller gauge and break-action.

for straight-up gunporn, shadowrun falls a bit short. CP2020, and especially games like Twilight 2000, Milleniums End, and (oh god) Phoenix Command all kick its ass (in ascending order of accuracy, detail, and complexity of rules). on the other hand, shadowrun plays very quickly and is well balanced for fast action where your protagonists dont instantly die when they are shot. not as realistic, but makes for a different kind of play experience.

[Draco18s]

Yeah, wasnt that the prefered weapon of the Arasaka security squads or something? The Famars Rombo is a real life one of those, though smaller gauge and break-action.

for straight-up gunporn, shadowrun falls a bit short. CP2020, and especially games like Twilight 2000, Milleniums End, and (oh god) Phoenix Command all kick its ass (in ascending order of accuracy, detail, and complexity of rules). on the other hand, shadowrun plays very quickly and is well balanced for fast action where your protagonists dont instantly die when they are shot. not as realistic, but makes for a different kind of play experience.

Meh, nothing quite compares to Traveller's Fusion Gun (Man Portabale). The FGMP and PGMP (Plasma Gun, Man Portable) are the only two weapons in the game that "just kill people." One shot from the FGMP will have a 50-50 chance of killing a guy who has maximized health with the most advanced armor. And it fires 3 shots at full auto. The game directs you to spend any left over damage from target obliteration on anything directly behind it (and keep going until you run out of damage). Then makes the note that "all guns should do this, but the FGMP and PGMP are the only weapons worth calculating the effect for." There's also a side bar about how the PGMP and FGMP are weapons of such unbelievable destructive potential that they are never deployed without due care and forethought--except by player characters.

it should also be noted that every shot gives everyone in the area about 420 radiation damage (1000 kills you outright).

[Stahlseele]

So wait, every single shot gives 420 radiation.
1000 radiation kill everyone close enough.
The Gun does not fire Single Shot but Burst.
3 Single Shots following each other closely.
3x420=1260 Radiation Damage right?
So everybody close to such a weapon dies?
No matter if shooting, being shot at, or hit?
Maybe i should investigate such a game ^^

[puke]

well, its designed to be fired by Solomani Imperial Marines or whatever they were, in their vaccuum and radiation proof power-armor. imagine if you took a vehicular military powered laser in shadowrun and put it on a suit of military power armor with every extra you can buy for it, and then fuel everything with micro fusion reactors and scale up the power by a factor of about x100.

traveller had some good stuff, but it wasnt all that realistic from a gun-bunny point of view. i might be mis-remembering this, but i thought there was something about full-auto gauss-rifles being ideal for zero-gee operations because they were immune to recoil, since they launced their projectiles with magnetics rather than explosive cartridges. whoever came up with that just wasnt paying any attention to Mr. Newton.

also, it went through some pretty wild technology swings between different eras. i forget which edition changed everything to COLD FUSION when that became the popular thing in the 80s... either "Mega" or "The New Era". pretty rampant sillyness.

[Larme]

Stupid, but cool. Sums up CP2020 in three words.

[Heath Robinson]

SR4 needs stats for the Hillberg weapons. Nothin would say "Barrens" like a four barreled shotgun.

CODE

"Liberator"

The Liberator is an old standby - people in the Barrens like having 4 shotgun barrels and it's generally resilient enough that it outshines even the AK97.  Liberators are rarely produced within the safety tolerances for local nations, but even if you did get your hands on one that does the association with the Barrens guarantees you unwanted attention from Lone Star.

Liberators come with a folding stock and a foregrip.

Base DV: 7P
Base AP: 0
Mode:  SA
RC:  1(2)
Ammo:  4(m)
Availability:  3F

Cost:  150

A Liberator which meets safety standards costs an extra 100 and has an availability of 5R.

CODE

"Defender"

It's cheap, it's reliable, it's intimidating, it pegs you as a ganger from the Barrens.  The Defender is an old design that manufacturers in the Barrens have seized on for its low price and robust construction.  Thanks to its associationg with the Barrens and its role in heightening violence therein most LEOs will stop you on sight and get you on any number of ancilliary offenses for carrying one.  Defenders are almost certainly not manufactured according to the stringent safety standards required under most countries laws.

A Defender comes with a foregrip, foldable stock, and a sling.

Base DV: 7P
Base AP: 0
Mode:  SA
RC:  2(3)
Ammo:  8(m)
Availability:  5F

Cost:  450

Some versions of the Defender come with an integral single shot grenade launcher - these cost an extra 400 and increase the availability by 2.

Additionally, Defenders that actually meet safety standards cost an extra 200 and have an availability of 7R.

Comments?

[Wounded Ronin]

Don't you want one?

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/...ble_defense.php

2 round ammo capacity is insufficient against the living. It is best reserved for use during zombie invasion of S-Mart.

[Wounded Ronin]

Yeah, wasnt that the prefered weapon of the Arasaka security squads or something? The Famars Rombo is a real life one of those, though smaller gauge and break-action.

for straight-up gunporn, shadowrun falls a bit short. CP2020, and especially games like Twilight 2000, Milleniums End, and (oh god) Phoenix Command all kick its ass (in ascending order of accuracy, detail, and complexity of rules). on the other hand, shadowrun plays very quickly and is well balanced for fast action where your protagonists dont instantly die when they are shot. not as realistic, but makes for a different kind of play experience.

Sold! I'm going to get me a copy of Pheonix Command: http://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Command-Barr...7701&sr=1-1

[Draco18s]

So wait, every single shot gives 420 radiation.
1000 radiation kill everyone close enough.
The Gun does not fire Single Shot but Burst.
3 Single Shots following each other closely.
3x420=1260 Radiation Damage right?
So everybody close to such a weapon dies?
No matter if shooting, being shot at, or hit?
Maybe i should investigate such a game ^^

It's 420 rads for the burst. Each shot does 2d6 * 20 rads (140 average), and there are 3 shots to a burst. The damage code is 16d6 per shot. Against a guy who has 45 HP max and 18 armor, max (armor subtracts from damage directly).

[Stahlseele]

Ouch O.o
That's like using a GreatDragon ATGM against an unarmored Elf x.x

[Larme]

Honestly, I think CP2020 is where Shadowrun got its original idea to fill up books with 75% "nyah nyah, can't have it" choices. CP2020 was full of full borgs who were like gods, and cyborg weapons that could only be used by full borgs without injury. Not to mention power armor suits and quasi-adamantium skeletons... Hell, even your common flying cars were completely out of a player's reach. Cell phone plans could sometimes break the bank. It was a real gutter dystopia world. Except, once in a while a player would roll really well (yes, you rolled your stats and background) and get access to all that shit, and things would really fall apart.

[Wounded Ronin]

Honestly, I think CP2020 is where Shadowrun got its original idea to fill up books with 75% "nyah nyah, can't have it" choices. CP2020 was full of full borgs who were like gods, and cyborg weapons that could only be used by full borgs without injury. Not to mention power armor suits and quasi-adamantium skeletons... Hell, even your common flying cars were completely out of a player's reach. Cell phone plans could sometimes break the bank. It was a real gutter dystopia world. Except, once in a while a player would roll really well (yes, you rolled your stats and background) and get access to all that shit, and things would really fall apart.

Cell phones being exotic and hard to get are awesome, because it still reflects the 80s.

One thing I'd actually like to learn more about, but which I really am not sure how to look up, is how the telephone system worked in the 80s, and how phreaking worked at that time.

But I'm finding that getting specific bits of 80s history like that (even specific reviews of 80s terrorist groups, such as the ones portrayed in Sid Meier's Covert Action) is surprisingly difficult.

[Stahlseele]

Phreaking?
That worked by just recording certain sounds that came out of the phone after a specific action.
Then playing back the recorded sounds into the Microphone of the Phone itself.
The computer on the other end heard the command to do X and did X without needing the Money.

[Larme]

Cell phones being exotic and hard to get are awesome, because it still reflects the 80s.

It just turns the game into a big joke. When the corporate mover/shaker displays his wealth and power by pulling out a cell phone with caller ID that totally fits in the palm of his hand, the whole table is going to erupt with laughter. I don't care if you're an 80's fanboy, it's still funny. And funny is hard to square with gutter punk dystopia.

[Draco18s]

Phreaking?
That worked by just recording certain sounds that came out of the phone after a specific action.
Then playing back the recorded sounds into the Microphone of the Phone itself.
The computer on the other end heard the command to do X and did X without needing the Money.

Naw, just get a Captain Crunch Whistle.

[Wounded Ronin]

Phreaking?
That worked by just recording certain sounds that came out of the phone after a specific action.
Then playing back the recorded sounds into the Microphone of the Phone itself.
The computer on the other end heard the command to do X and did X without needing the Money.

I certainly appreciate being able to read that, but are there any citations or references? Any further reading for me?

[Wounded Ronin]

It just turns the game into a big joke. When the corporate mover/shaker displays his wealth and power by pulling out a cell phone with caller ID that totally fits in the palm of his hand, the whole table is going to erupt with laughter. I don't care if you're an 80's fanboy, it's still funny. And funny is hard to square with gutter punk dystopia.

I always felt like my personal style was to combine humor with brutality/disposable 6-pack characters. It's the only way to reconcile the falibility of the individual human with a game.

[the_real_elwood]

Why would I want a break-open shotgun for self defense? With a pump action you'd get at least 6 rounds available before you had to reload. The only advantage with a break-open shotgun is that you could use specialty or non-lethal shells that may be too long to feed in a pump or gas-operated gun. The only way I can see this competing with pump-action alternatives is on cost, and a used Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 is pretty damn cheap already.

Also, using a red-dot sight on a shotgun isn't pointless, and certainly isn't unheard of among professionals.

[kzt]

I've seen suggestions from various people who have a clue that an old-style coach gun with exposed hammers isn't bad. The odds are you won't need more than two rounds inside your house and the exposed hammers increase safety of storing it loaded.

[thearistocrat]

I dunno what that link was because it wasn't a mossberg 500 or something similar. Also, if you first shotgun comes with Picatinny rails and a red dot, you have made a mistake somewhere in your life.

Not to mention a Saiga-12 costs about as much and is made with Communist zeal.

[Generico]

A Saiga-12 has way to much spring pressure in the magazine so if you store it loaded the shells get squished and refuse to feed.

The 12K redesign lowered the spring pressure but it just slows down the squishy.

Break actions don't have to put up with that crap.

[Zen Shooter01]

There's no question that the Double Defense is inferior to pumps in every way. I just posted it because it looks Shadowrunesque. First, the price on the Double Defense is about $470. The Mossberg 500 and the Remington 870 both cost less. Second, the Mossberg and Remington pump actions both have at least 3.5 times the ammunition capacity. Third, you can switch out the standard stock on the Mossberg and Remington for a Knoxx stock. So case closed. The only advantage the Double Defense has, and it's a slight one, is that the time between your first and second shots is faster, because you don't have to work a pump. Further evidence that the Double Defense is a few upgrades on an obsolete platform - Bose speakers on a tape deck - is that no police department or military that I know of has fielded the double barreled shotgun in the last fifty years.

And by the way, Saigas are inferior all around. Shotguns are by their nature CQB weapons, and the Saiga is too long for easy handling in CQB environments. Customer support for Saigas in North America is crap. Try getting spare magazines. I dare you. While there is a world of accessories available for Mossbergs and Remingtons, like rails, ammo racks, and replacement stocks, there aren't for the Saiga. And finally, the Saiga gets only, what, 5 rounds? And in a box magazine, which, unlike a tube magazine, can't be easily topped off under fire.

[kzt]

There are 10 round mags available (but pricey), as well as some crazy fans who make drums.